Infiltrators

[roland.walters@abbott.com]

But even discounting that, what would be so bad about infiltrators not having to spend huge blocks of time at the academy? Is being bored and useless for two or three months viewed as some sort of infiltrator's Rite of Passage, or indoctrination ritual?

Who says that these large blocks of time are necessary.  If one has prepared your character properly before starting down the infiltrator path, you can spend more time in the field than at the academy.  I have found mixing field work with academy training seems to make the training go faster.  And even a very inexperienced infiltrator properly prepared can become a major nusance for his opponents.

[GoldPanda]

If some option allows infiltrators to bypass the academy altogether (because it is always strictly superior to academy training), then it's a buff for that class.

My claim is that the classes are balanced just fine right now. To make things fair again, you would have to add options that allow every other class to train up their skills faster than at the academy. Even if they take little to no risk, diplomats and priests are useless the first few weeks.

[Chenier]

If some option allows infiltrators to bypass the academy altogether (because it is always strictly superior to academy training), then it's a buff for that class.

My claim is that the classes are balanced just fine right now. To make things fair again, you would have to add options that allow every other class to train up their skills faster than at the academy. Even if they take little to no risk, diplomats and priests are useless the first few weeks.

Infil risk is inherently risky as diplomat's is safe. Priests, however, totally depend on the context in which they operate.

[fodder]

.... people use academy when they can just fight/preach/whatever diplo thingy??

[De-Legro]

.... people use academy when they can just fight/preach/whatever diplo thingy??

Getting 10%-20% in oratory before starting preaching or diplo work seems to increase the rate at which your skill increases from normal actions. I assume that because the training allows you to be successful more often. My experience is that getting that first little skill boost without the academy is slow going.

[Chenier]

Getting 10%-20% in oratory before starting preaching or diplo work seems to increase the rate at which your skill increases from normal actions. I assume that because the training allows you to be successful more often. My experience is that getting that first little skill boost without the academy is slow going.

And some priests don't have anywhere safe to practice either. Usually I recommend not wasting gold on the academy, but if every preaching results in wounds, then you are better off using gold then being mobbed all the time.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

Nooo, never ever waste gold on training oratory unless you absolutely are against being a diplomat.

It doesn't matter your main class, as long as you are a diplomat, you do not need to spend any gold on getting your Oratory skill above 80%. You just need either a region you like, or a ton of treaties, and some patience.

Oh yeah, did I mention patience? A few years ago, more than two players one separate occasions told me that BM is a game of patience. And possibly repetition.

You want to be the best? Deal with the boring early stages. It gets easier, faster, and better after the first few hurdles. Really.

I had a character start as inexperienced, 5% oratory. At this point, she has all priest options, all diplomatic options. With the best result in praising for 4 hours, she at one point raised 5 loyalty. This all occurred recently after only about two months.

[De-Legro]

Nooo, never ever waste gold on training oratory unless you absolutely are against being a diplomat.

It doesn't matter your main class, as long as you are a diplomat, you do not need to spend any gold on getting your Oratory skill above 80%. You just need either a region you like, or a ton of treaties, and some patience.

Oh yeah, did I mention patience? A few years ago, more than two players one separate occasions told me that BM is a game of patience. And possibly repetition.

You want to be the best? Deal with the boring early stages. It gets easier, faster, and better after the first few hurdles. Really.

I had a character start as inexperienced, 5% oratory. At this point, she has all priest options, all diplomatic options. With the best result in praising for 4 hours, she at one point raised 5 loyalty. This all occurred recently after only about two months.

Sure, or you could spend about 50 gold and shave a month or two off the process. The fact is training at the academy early gives you rapid skill gain, that gets you to the point were further skill gain from actually preforming your task is a much better prospect. That first 5-10% seems to be damn slow to happen out in the field.

[egamma]

Sure, or you could spend about 50 gold and shave a month or two off the process. The fact is training at the academy early gives you rapid skill gain, that gets you to the point were further skill gain from actually preforming your task is a much better prospect. That first 5-10% seems to be damn slow to happen out in the field.

How can you shave 2 months off of a 2 month process? It only took me about 2 months to get my atamara priest over 80%, I think.

[Stormcrow]

I have an infiltrator on Atamara and yes I trained her in the academy for quite some time. I wouldn't care if this "training window" before you have a skill you dare using would be shorter but please don't do it by implenting actions that are no risk.
If you shy away from risk this class is not for you. It is dangerous and it is supposed to be. I have an infil skill of around 70 and did some damage in the last weeks and months but I enjoyed the possibility of being caught. It's one of the core feelings that makes the infil class so attractive to me.

More risk on the other hand is making me uneasy. The risk when assaulting someone for example is high enough as it is and don't let me get started about the options in the tax office. I heard it's riskier than assault and in fact it brought me directly into jail after trying it once and only counting gold in a region with no units  or militia whatsoever.

I believe it was Golden Panda who said that the class is fine as it is and I agree. Finding a way to erase some of the time at the academy in favor of direct action in the field would be nice but there is a very small limit at least I would be comfortable with concerning major changes to fix a "minor" problem.

On a side note. Imagine what happens when it gets "easy" to become an infil.

[Chenier]

On a side note. Imagine what happens when it gets "easy" to become an infil.

Infils cease being awesome deadly ninjas by balancing as Tom keeps saying they aren't meant to be?

Infils, as it is, are like superman in a way. They "hide" in godawful "disguise" all day long until their needs are needed, then they slip out and go do their awesome thing.

The last changes to infils didn't stop them from being ninjas. They are now just part-time ninjas instead. A complete new class as "demolition specialist" would be more appropriate, one with a smaller learning curve and reduced power. That's how I'd have it, with current infils grand-fathered to keep the subclass.

[De-Legro]

Infils cease being awesome deadly ninjas by balancing as Tom keeps saying they aren't meant to be?

Infils, as it is, are like superman in a way. They "hide" in godawful "disguise" all day long until their needs are needed, then they slip out and go do their awesome thing.

The last changes to infils didn't stop them from being ninjas. They are now just part-time ninjas instead. A complete new class as "demolition specialist" would be more appropriate, one with a smaller learning curve and reduced power. That's how I'd have it, with current infils grand-fathered to keep the subclass.

Considering how many VERY good infils have recently been captured and killed on FEI, I have trouble believing they are ninja's or over powered. My infil with 80% + skill got captured trying the lowest risk RC sabotage mission, quite a surprise I tell you.

[Velax]

Can you avoid death as an infil by simply never going into a realm you're banned from? Or emigrating whenever you have too many bans on you and coming back a couple of weeks later?

[Chenier]

Can you avoid death as an infil by simply never going into a realm you're banned from? Or emigrating whenever you have too many bans on you and coming back a couple of weeks later?

Yes.

Considering how many VERY good infils have recently been captured and killed on FEI, I have trouble believing they are ninja's or over powered. My infil with 80% + skill got captured trying the lowest risk RC sabotage mission, quite a surprise I tell you.

It's a gamble. Even if you have good odds of success, you can lose. That being said, the damage you do, compared to what anyone else can do, is epic.

[De-Legro]

Yes.

It's a gamble. Even if you have good odds of success, you can lose. That being said, the damage you do, compared to what anyone else can do, is epic.

I've rarely found that the impact of a single infiltrator lives up to the hype.