Is Dwilight really SMA?

[Fleugs]

History = Batman
Archaeology = Robin

'Nuff said.

[Shizzle]

History = Batman
Archaeology = Robin

'Nuff said.

I suppose this is not the place to disagree with you, but it is exactly that attitude that is preventing a lot of new items to be discovered.

Quick example: a book dated around 1917 is found, describing how soldiers should be buried. History cannot find any conflicting sources, and thus proclaims proudly: in WWI soldiers were buried in this and that way. The idea is set in stone, and generally accepted for decades.
Then Archaeology comes along, and decides to check the information. Appears almost none of the soldiers were buried in the way proposed by the chain of command, showing the idea proposed based on historical sources was too generalised at best, and simply false at worst (that sounds very un-english)

The main problem is that most historical sources were written with a specific reason, and that reason was (usually) not to inform us today. Archaeological finds, on the other hand, rarely lie.

I'm not trying to turn this the other way round, though. I'm not saying Archaeology is better than History. However, the time where A was H's sidekick, is long past.

BUT: let's not turn this threat into an A vs H discussion, because I don't think it would interest anybody. So eear reader, I'd pay you back your wasted time, but sadly - this is free.  ;D

[Shenron]

Well we'll soon have Vellos swoop in and tell us about the proper medieval context but I can say one thing.

Religion was extremely important to a noblemans identity. I think a huge problem is that we have areas of pagan beliefs. I mean I'm not saying it could have been avoided, but it has certainly created a weird situation. In Medieval times there was always areas that were dominated by pre-existing religions (obviously the world wasn't created just before the medieval times.) The problem we face here is how should nobles react to starting a religion?

What I mean is I want to bring religion in full force to have a greater medieval atmosphere. Religion should be a very important part in politics. However at the moment there is no dominant religion in Fissoa and to make one there needs convincing. Now I know Rob will jump in here and say "omg try harder, look at me and SA, you get what you deserve, it's team game etc etc" (sorry rob) but it really isn't that simple.

The bottom line is: players should not have to put in massive amounts of effort to bring the game into a medieval sphere. It, in fact, should be the opposite. If you want your character to do something against the medieval atmosphere, you should then be met with fierce scepticism and hostility.

EDIT: Shizzle just rickrolled me...  :'(

[Shizzle]

EDIT: Shizzle just rickrolled me...  :'(

Shhh.  ;D :-X

[Fleugs]

Shizzle, you study archaeology, I study history. You know well this is just a "thing", but there's no truth to it.  ;)

And yes, history constantly changes. That's true. It's the first thing they told us when I started studying it.

[Shizzle]

Shizzle, you study archaeology, I study history. You know well this is just a "thing", but there's no truth to it.  ;)

And yes, history constantly changes. That's true. It's the first thing they told us when I started studying it.

Hehe, so you're in Louvain and studying history, and I'm in Ghent for Archaeology. You don't happen to be a right-wing, female and ugly, do you? ;)

[Fleugs]

Hehe, so you're in Louvain and studying history, and I'm in Ghent for Archaeology. You don't happen to be a right-wing, female and ugly, do you? ;)

Throwing insults, are we now?!

[Shizzle]

Throwing insults, are we now?!

Why would being female be insulting?  ::)

Better bring this back on topic somehow. :(

[Fleugs]

What topic? ;D

[Geronus]

And on-topic: and SMA Dwilight seems kind of utopious (is that a word?). Wether we want it or not, we are just too influenced by the world we live in today. For starters, we don't even know for sure how people thought back then. Of course we can have a guess, and our knowledge is ever improving, but I think it's hybris to say a medieval commoner said this or a medieval noble said that.

I for one believe that people haven't changed all that much in 1000 years. If there's people coming up with a 'Church of Tolerance' today, why not in Medieval Times? Can you honestly say that items as freedom of speech or religion were totally off the map before the Enlightenment? Sure they were repressed, but that doesn't mean those sentiments didn't exist.

And another thing: we all have our own ideas on how medieval society worked. I suppose many of us base their opinions on movies or books, or even scientifical 'evidence', even though it can be hopelessly outdated. As an archaeology student I can testify how I hear of a new developement in an archaeology class, radically altering some view on some medieval item. And then I'm in a history class where the old vision is still supported.

SMA should not be about recreating Medieval Society, because we cannot, and will not ever succeed in doing that - for numerous reasons. I believe SMA should make sure BM doesn't turn into LOTR or any other niche, and stays true to certain values and rules that we create ourselves.

Well, things like freedom of speech an equal rights are, ideologically speaking, completely at odds with the traditional feudal European society we are supposed to be emulating here. A cornerstone of that society was the superiority of nobles over peasants. That is how rule by the nobility was justified. They were *better* than commoners, and so they deserved to rule them. You take away that assumption, you remove the basis upon which noble rule was founded, ideologically speaking.

Of course, the Middle Ages were also highly sexist in a way that BM is not, so it can certainly be argued that there's a double standard going on here. In the end, Tom is the only rule. He doesn't care about male and female nobles being treated the same (an obvious break from medieval realities), but I believe he has been quite explicit on the subject of the inferiority of peasants and also on the subject of religion. I am paraphrasing from what I remember, and thus I may get it wrong, but I believe he has stated that Paganism should not be a respectable religion for *any* noble to follow. Paganism is essentially peasant superstition, and therefore beneath any self respecting noble. Similarly, atheism is unthinkable.

[Shizzle]

Well, if a noble is no follower s.s. of any religion in BM, he must fall under 'paganism', unless he is atheist (which is impossible). Or would you force people to join religions?

[Vellos]

Well we'll soon have Vellos swoop in and tell us about the proper medieval context but I can say one thing.

Faster than a speeding misconception, it's Vellos!

The bottom line is: players should not have to put in massive amounts of effort to bring the game into a medieval sphere. It, in fact, should be the opposite. If you want your character to do something against the medieval atmosphere, you should then be met with fierce scepticism and hostility.

This is an excellent way to phrase it.

i think that there should probably be a list of bullets for dwilight that sets out certain things.. that a new hero (or advy i guess) must read upon creation. and a link for reminders.

and i don't mean a link to the wiki.

Yes. Absolutely. I keep meaning to write a brief list (less than ten items; maybe just 5) of "Basic SMA," then we can argue about it here until we're blue in the face.

Well, things like freedom of speech an equal rights are, ideologically speaking, completely at odds with the traditional feudal European society we are supposed to be emulating here. A cornerstone of that society was the superiority of nobles over peasants.

Let's be clear about this. Passionate advocates for freedom and equality probability did exist in the Middle Ages. They were called peasants, and were executed for sedition. Most of us are descendants of peasants, and we have peasantish beliefs. This is a darn good thing.

Our BM characters should NOT represent feudal society. They should represent the top 1% of feudal society. By my count, Dwilight has about 1,500,000 peasants. Revisit that number for a moment: one-and-a-half million peasants. Our players represent the most prestigious, powerful, and elite people among them. They are the ruling 500-odd nobles. Look at those numbers again: we play 500 or so nobles in a population of over 1 million. We are not the ruling 1%. We are the ruling 0.0003%. We are violent, aristocratic landholders who regularly exercise in brutal police actions, tally each others' prestige and honor based on our ability to lop off the heads of our foes, and have state-sponsored blood sports. We have civilizing influences and refinements of course, and religions, and art, culture, and moral restraints.

It's not that ideas about equality couldn't exist in the middle ages. It's that they wouldn't have existed at the level of BM characters.

Or would you force people to join religions?

For the thousandth time, yes!

[Chenier]

"I believe you are annoying me by asking something that I have no need to answer to you because you obviously do not share my faith. Begone."

Hehe, this is basically what SA gets every time they try to start "theological discussions" with VE.

[Shenron]

Yes. Absolutely. I keep meaning to write a brief list (less than ten items; maybe just 5) of "Basic SMA," then we can argue about it here until we're blue in the face.

This will probably be necessary. At least regarding this current discussion on religion.

[Glaumring the Fox]

Hehe, this is basically what SA gets every time they try to start "theological discussions" with VE.

In order to combat the fanatical theology of SA. VE became more fanatical... :o