The Current War

[Radigand]

Not going to lie though... if Darka and BoM get out of this unscathed I'll pretty pissed, especially Darka. Not because I want harm to Darka, but just because it wouldn't seem right for Eston to be the only victim of this war.

Stay tuned.... the war isn't over yet

[Indirik]

Of course. We wanted to fight, but stick to our treaties (unlike the North).

So we looked south for conflict. Makes sense to me, and Carelia was pretty much out of the war at that point.

Which was a violation of your treaty. Coria was treaty-bound to NOT interfere in the war. Sending troops south under such a flimsy excuse (visiting family or some such) was a violation of your treaty. However yous pin it, that act broke the treaty.

If you want to rejoin the war with Coria, you should have just neutralized the treaty between Estona nd Coria and attacked us straight on. Actually you should have neutralized the war with Darka and Talerium as well and just opened up a huge front.

Both of which were impossible. Neither Eston nor Coria were going to to break their treaty. Neither were Darka or Talerium.

IMNSHO, the turning point of the war *should* have been the destruction of Coria. We were poised to do it, when Eston gave the entire NA the finger, and signed that damned treaty. Eston would have looked mighty nice with another monster duchy, and Hammarpeeps with another duchy of their own.

[Indirik]

Darka on the other hand was kneecapped by Kostaja's stubbornness. I think I read somewhere that even his own councilors argued for attacking Talerium at one point, but he wouldn't accept their arguments, let alone those of his fellow rulers. For his part, Kerwin severely compromised his own ability to convince Darka to do any such thing when he made that separate peace with Coria. With that precedent set, what incentive did Darka have to stick their necks out?

That was me. Kende put forth plans to crush Talerium, and start sacking CE cities. That was back when Darka was routinely marching with 25K, and we could have hit 35-40K if we *really* stretched it. We could have timed it with a massiv Eston army, and perhaps help from Hammarpeeps and BoM, too. We could have smashed through Talerium and done massive damage to CE, with good timing.

Alas, KK didn't let me even mention it to Eston...

There was a time when KK was on the verge of abdicating, to let someone else do it. Various people in Darka convinced him to keep the throne, and uphold the treaties. That may help us now, having kept to all of our agreements as closely as we could. We shall see.

[Gustav Kuriga]

I agree with this. But as I said above, character action and player fun shouldn't necessarily always be linked. Although in some cases its important. If I favored player fun purely over IC RP'ed actions, then I would have had Coria attack CE long ago. However, I have to play my character, not as a player.

I honestly think this is one reason why we lose players over the years. if you're putting character action over player fun, then you aren't playing this as a game, which is what it is first and foremost.

[Geronus]

Eston's refusal to attack/betray Coria may however save/aid them in the future. Eston is not dead (and won't be) so only time will tell. But they have shown to be honourable and to honour their deals. They may very well outlive Darka and BoM.

This is also an important point.

Eston secured for themselves a strong potential ally in Coria. (Who is now stronger than Eston itself). Coria is also within the CE alliance, so while they aren't directly part of the terms discussion, they can advocate on behalf of Eston.

Which only goes to prove my point about their "narrow, provincial" view of the conflict. Eston always came first. The treaty with Coria was a way to hedge their risk at the expense of their allies, and never mind the fact that it was also essentially a self-fulfilling bet that the NA was going to lose.

[Geronus]

There was a time when KK was on the verge of abdicating, to let someone else do it. Various people in Darka convinced him to keep the throne, and uphold the treaties. That may help us now, having kept to all of our agreements as closely as we could. We shall see.

If he were still around, Laszlo would hope Talerium looks the other way while the Empire & Co. teach Darka a harsh lesson about starting a war without being willing to do everything in their power to win it.

Too many fluffy bunny huggers in the NA. Not enough will to win at any cost.

[Geronus]

However, much of the political situations needed to make such a plan successful were there. They were just hidden under the surface. You had to be a part of the CE alliance in order to see where the cracks were. My character knew about them, and made plans to use them if Coria was ever threatened.

Which made them operationally useless and irrelevant to my decision-making.

King Kerwin was made aware of the cracks by my character which allowed him to trust Coria more. That's one of the reasons Coria and Eston grew closer together.

And since he never shared or (to my knowledge) acted on that information, see above.

As to your point about preconditions. All of the preconditions that were *necessary* were available at the time when Merlin contacted the leaders of the Northern Alliance. Not all of the preconditions that would have been *wanted* were available, but the necessary ones were. That of course fell through. But hey, I'm playing a happy duke of a strong city.

Again, by the time Merlin made his offer, Hammarsett and Coria were already back at war. You have criticized Hammarsett's actions on the basis of events that happened after the fact, and you are Monday morning quarterbacking with the benefit of information we didn't have at the time. Nothing you have said points to a better course for Hammarsett or the Northern Alliance as a whole at the time given the information that we had and given the self-imposed restraints on Eston and Darka.

[Dante Silverfire]

Which was a violation of your treaty. Coria was treaty-bound to NOT interfere in the war. Sending troops south under such a flimsy excuse (visiting family or some such) was a violation of your treaty. However yous pin it, that act broke the treaty.

We were treaty bound not to engage in the north. We were not treaty bound in any manner for the south. We were very careful about that.

We broke no treaty by engaging Carelia. Plus, our engagement with Carelia would have been because they sent troops north to fight us shortly beforehand.

I honestly think this is one reason why we lose players over the years. if you're putting character action over player fun, then you aren't playing this as a game, which is what it is first and foremost.

This game is at least in part a roleplaying game. We're supposed to roleplay our characters. We're not playing a metagame where we do everything possible to win. If it was, then the game would be completely different and the dynamics would be completely different. Realms couldn't even operate as a team because everyone would want to be ruler. However, if you're roleplaying a character you're able to actually have a fully functioning realm.

Yes this is a game, but its not a pure strategy game. As a ruler or council member in a realm it is your responsibility as provided by the game to ensure (ability for) players to have fun. However, not every character is bound by that.

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Which made them operationally useless and irrelevant to my decision-making.

And since he never shared or (to my knowledge) acted on that information, see above.

Again, by the time Merlin made his offer, Hammarsett and Coria were already back at war. You have criticized Hammarsett's actions on the basis of events that happened after the fact, and you are Monday morning quarterbacking with the benefit of information we didn't have at the time. Nothing you have said points to a better course for Hammarsett or the Northern Alliance as a whole at the time given the information that we had and given the self-imposed restraints on Eston and Darka.

The only thing relevant to your decision making to know what was the best decision was that you were in a perpetual stalemate with little viable way of breaking it. You should have made peace even without access to any of the information I had. I was also referencing a different issue and a different time when Merlin made his offer. Of your three options, you could either make peace, fight a stalemate, or attack Coria. You chose to attack Coria which is fine, but since no one wants to fight a stalemate, I'd have chosen to make peace. Even assuming I didn't know any of this information.

The northern war was lost once the southern war collapsed.

[Geronus]

We were treaty bound not to engage in the north. We were not treaty bound in any manner for the south. We were very careful about that.

We broke no treaty by engaging Carelia. Plus, our engagement with Carelia would have been because they sent troops north to fight us shortly beforehand.

If you were within your rights, then why the excuses? Coria sure went to some lengths to try to pass off what they were doing as anything but engaging Carelia... The excuse Saeculo came up with was epic for its complete absurdity.

[Gustav Kuriga]

This game is at least in part a roleplaying game. We're supposed to roleplay our characters. We're not playing a metagame where we do everything possible to win. If it was, then the game would be completely different and the dynamics would be completely different. Realms couldn't even operate as a team because everyone would want to be ruler. However, if you're roleplaying a character you're able to actually have a fully functioning realm.

Yes this is a game, but its not a pure strategy game. As a ruler or council member in a realm it is your responsibility as provided by the game to ensure (ability for) players to have fun. However, not every character is bound by that.

I think you misunderstood me. I never said anything about winning, or that I equated that with fun. I was speaking of fun in general, so please don't put words into my mouth that I never said. I know it is a roleplaying game, not a pure strategy game.

[Penchant]

I think you misunderstood me. I never said anything about winning, or that I equated that with fun. I was speaking of fun in general, so please don't put words into my mouth that I never said. I know it is a roleplaying game, not a pure strategy game.

Exactly, characters with high influence in the realm, often the ruler but not always, are choosing what their character would do over what's fun for everybody which just kills. Role play is great but when your making choices that affect long term fun, role play should be a lower priority than fun regardless of your position.

[Geronus]

The only thing relevant to your decision making to know what was the best decision was that you were in a perpetual stalemate with little viable way of breaking it. You should have made peace even without access to any of the information I had. I was also referencing a different issue and a different time when Merlin made his offer. Of your three options, you could either make peace, fight a stalemate, or attack Coria. You chose to attack Coria which is fine, but since no one wants to fight a stalemate, I'd have chosen to make peace. Even assuming I didn't know any of this information.

The northern war was lost once the southern war collapsed.

Your analysis is accurate as far as it goes, but the problem is that it has the benefit of hindsight and it seems to me that your memory about the sequence of events at the time is hazy at best, though I suppose I could be the one who's wrong on the particulars.

At the time in question the stalemate didn't appear to be perpetual, and Carelia hadn't yet collapsed. Half the rationale for what was done was to get Tara off the western front so that the pressure on the Empire from that side could be increased and possibly help Carelia catch its breath. Obviously that's not how it worked out, but at the time we still thought there was a chance that we could turn things around and break the stalemate in our favor with Carelia's help. As for Merlin's offer, I don't recall ever hearing anything about it, so again, irrelevant to Hammarsett's decision making.

[Dante Silverfire]

If you were within your rights, then why the excuses? Coria sure went to some lengths to try to pass off what they were doing as anything but engaging Carelia... The excuse Saeculo came up with was epic for its complete absurdity.

There IS a reason he eventually lost his position and was replaced.

Your analysis is accurate as far as it goes, but the problem is that it has the benefit of hindsight and it seems to me that your memory about the sequence of events at the time is hazy at best, though I suppose I could be the one who's wrong on the particulars.

At the time in question the stalemate didn't appear to be perpetual, and Carelia hadn't yet collapsed. Half the rationale for what was done was to get Tara off the western front so that the pressure on the Empire from that side could be increased and possibly help Carelia catch its breath. Obviously that's not how it worked out, but at the time we still thought there was a chance that we could turn things around and break the stalemate in our favor with Carelia's help. As for Merlin's offer, I don't recall ever hearing anything about it, so again, irrelevant to Hammarsett's decision making.

Well I think we've talked this in circles enough. Let's just agree that decisions were made, and the one that was chosen didn't work out well for the north.

Exactly, characters with high influence in the realm, often the ruler but not always, are choosing what their character would do over what's fun for everybody which just kills. Role play is great but when your making choices that affect long term fun, role play should be a lower priority than fun regardless of your position.

I'd love to hear suggestions on how to fix this without essentially just making it a meta game all the time.

[vonGenf]

Exactly, characters with high influence in the realm, often the ruler but not always, are choosing what their character would do over what's fun for everybody which just kills. Role play is great but when your making choices that affect long term fun, role play should be a lower priority than fun regardless of your position.

Of course if something is fun for everybody, then you should do it. However, I think you underestimate one big aspect: consistent character roleplay is a big part of the fun in BM.

When I see a character take an action that is contrary to everything they've shown before for obviously OOC consideration, then I'm not having fun, whether this leads to a war or not.

[Dante Silverfire]

Of course if something is fun for everybody, then you should do it. However, I think you underestimate one big aspect: consistent character roleplay is a big part of the fun in BM.

When I see a character take an action that is contrary to everything they've shown before for obviously OOC consideration, then I'm not having fun, whether this leads to a war or not.

That's kind of my point.

I mean I took actions with my character Brom that specifically screwed him over, because its what his character would do. My actions with Merlin are all in line with someone who is a greedy ambitious arrogant Duke who wants power.