BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => Locals => Dwilight => Topic started by: Chenier on February 01, 2012, 02:50:15 AM
-
Can anyone confirm that such a tiny realm can become the continental superpower in a legit way? Are each and every one of them leaching other continent's gold?
I'm not fighting them, and barely have any contact with them, but this just seems suspicious.
-
o.o
Wow...That's a huge jump. The icing on the cake is that the realm's income is second to last, and the income per character is last.
-
Well, if you think they're abusing the game, take it to the Magistrates. Should make for some interesting discussion, eh?
-
Uh...how does one file a complaint against a realm?
-
Were it not for the recent battles, they'd have passed the 30k CS mark.
In Fheuv'n, we had more regions and I was constantly pumping hundreds of gold into it, and we were lucky to reach the 10k mark once and a while. Sure, I think I was the only one to call in family gold consistently, but still. I had max gold in my family and well-established characters to back me up, I doubt others can afford such things in a sustainable manner. And yet, Auvandil has been surprising with their ever-increasing might.
It just reeks of Thulsoma's exploits. And these ARE the same guys, aren't they? No offense to the players who play there, but I've never seen anyone achieve such things in a legitimate way before.
Well, if you think they're abusing the game, take it to the Magistrates. Should make for some interesting discussion, eh?
Accuse them of what? I have no proof to bring to the magistrates. Magistrates have no investigation powers. To the titans, perhaps...
I'm not sure WHAT they are doing, that's the thing. I don't want to assume they are cheating, as the only known way to accumulate such power was fixed after Thulsoma, but I'm just wondering if people can REALLY be that damn good at leaching other continents for gold of if its something else.
Uh...how does one file a complaint against a realm?
Plus this.
-
Uh...how does one file a complaint against a realm?
Target the ruler I would guess
-
Uh...how does one file a complaint against a realm?
File against the ruler. If something comes out of it, Tom can sort out any actual punishment needed.
-
Were it not for the recent battles, they'd have passed the 30k CS mark.
Scary, huh?
It just reeks of Thulsoma's exploits. And these ARE the same guys, aren't they? No offense to the players who play there, but I've never seen anyone achieve such things in a legitimate way before.
Many of them are. And Averoth, too. And you saw what it took to take down Thulsoma and Averoth. Combined armies of Morek, Astrum, Corsanctum, Libero, and even Summerdale were required to breach those citadels and the massive troops they had. So, any chance that the Lurias can patch up their differences and recruit a 50K CS army before the Aurvandili can make it that far? How about the Veinsormoot? (And don't forget the verbal abuse they will heap upon you for getting together a coalition to deal with them... ::) )
Accuse them of what? I have no proof to bring to the magistrates. Magistrates have no investigation powers. To the titans, perhaps...
I don't know. What do you think they are doing?
(I'm not disagreeing you. It smells fishy to me, too. But I don't have any "proof" of anything, either.)
-
I don't know. What do you think they are doing?
No idea what they could be doing. Hence why I ask here, to see what others think. The only things I could think of that could grant such might is, as far as I know, no longer possible.
-
Lurians patching up their differences? Which Dwilight have /you/ been playing on, Indirik?
-
Scary, huh?
Many of them are. And Averoth, too. And you saw what it took to take down Thulsoma and Averoth. Combined armies of Morek, Astrum, Corsanctum, Libero, and even Summerdale were required to breach those citadels and the massive troops they had. So, any chance that the Lurias can patch up their differences and recruit a 50K CS army before the Aurvandili can make it that far? How about the Veinsormoot? (And don't forget the verbal abuse they will heap upon you for getting together a coalition to deal with them... ::) )
I don't know. What do you think they are doing?
(I'm not disagreeing you. It smells fishy to me, too. But I don't have any "proof" of anything, either.)
Even if Luria and Fissoa united I doubt we could field a force that would be able to take them on offensively. We might JUST manage a defense, but then the realm has almost 100% movement of there 41 nobles from all reports. I somehow doubt we would have the same.
Now if Luria and the Moot allied, and the two coalitions worked together, maybe. But could you imagine the co-ordination nightmare?
-
Even if Luria and Fissoa united I doubt we could field a force that would be able to take them on offensively. We might JUST manage a defense, but then the realm has almost 100% movement of there 41 nobles from all reports. I somehow doubt we would have the same.
Now if Luria and the Moot allied, and the two coalitions worked together, maybe. But could you imagine the co-ordination nightmare?
I'd rather use Aurvandil to bash on the Zuma, personally. Aurvandil scares me more than the Zuma does, and annoys me far, far less. And they both have shady ways of gaining their might.
-
I'd rather use Aurvandil to bash on the Zuma, personally. Aurvandil scares me more than the Zuma does, and annoys me far, far less. And they both have shady ways of gaining their might.
That would be interesting. I'm sure there are people already trying to work out if they can set the Zuma against Aurvandil. If you have that sort of influence over Aurvandil go for it. Personally I think it is extremely unlikely.
-
That would be interesting. I'm sure there are people already trying to work out if they can set the Zuma against Aurvandil. If you have that sort of influence over Aurvandil go for it. Personally I think it is extremely unlikely.
I don't have any influence over Aurvandil. I doubt anyone does.
-
What fascinates me is 41 nobles working like a single mind, it takes me ages even to get 27 nobles to recruit and have enough gold to make through the week, either they are all pro's or all the same person because I honestly dont see how they can do it so fast and so precise.
-
The magic of clanning at work ::)
-
I am as equally confused as everyone else here how this is possible. My character even contacted their Banker to find out if they had special tax systems or something going on. (No response).
Honestly, it seems a bit crazy to me. Their regions aren't good enough to support an army like that unless every single region constantly has an investment on it keeping it at 150% production, as well as families giving them gold.
Whatever they are doing, if its legal, I want to know cause Pian needs it now.
-
It would be unfair to say they are cheating whenever they reach some crazy CS. I say let them be until someone finds an evidence. I am sure they are tightly running their realm to manage whatever gold they get.
-
It would be unfair to say they are cheating whenever they reach some crazy CS. I say let them be until someone finds an evidence. I am sure they are tightly running their realm to manage whatever gold they get.
That is generally why people complain. Its not impossible, but it is extremely uncommon to see realms operate at such a degree of efficiency. Sirion has a pretty efficient gold system, it doesn't come close to what Aurvandil would need. People will jump to cheating accusations, because some of the player made use of an exploit before. But yes it would be unfair to accuse them of cheating in this instance without some sort of proof.
Can't see them calling on family money, that would dry up soon enough when the family gets tired of being a bank. Constant investments could work, but that would imply the army is going to be in trouble with everyone currently fighting, or they have stockpiled enough to get by.
-
I think these three things influence an army.
1) Unit maintenance cost
2) Sharp rise in CS
3) Gold income
1. Aurvandil has income of 3-4k gold per week. They have 44 nobles in their realm so they might be able to increase the tax rate of their city if they have many nobles working for the city.
2. Aurvandil attacked Tower Fatmilak with around 2280 men. That means each noble leads an average of 51~52 men. Having over 50 men will probably cost at least 8 gold a day, 56 gold per week. Having 44 nobles leading 50 men each will cost over 2400 gold. That is over half of the total income.
3. Aurvandil managed to increase their CS by 12000 within 14 days. (Started around 16000 CS on Jan 11th to 28000 CS on Jan 25th)
-
I think these three things influence an army.
1) Unit maintenance cost
2) Sharp rise in CS
3) Gold income
1. Aurvandil has income of 3-4k gold per week. They have 44 nobles in their realm so they might be able to increase the tax rate of their city if they have many nobles working for the city.
2. Aurvandil attacked Tower Fatmilak with around 2280 men. That means each noble leads an average of 51~52 men. Having over 50 men will probably cost at least 8 gold a day, 56 gold per week. Having 44 nobles leading 50 men each will cost over 2400 gold. That is over half of the total income.
3. Aurvandil managed to increase their CS by 12000 within 14 days. (Started around 16000 CS on Jan 11th to 28000 CS on Jan 25th)
You third one is the most telling in my opinion. They may be working with an army they can't afford long term. Given the gold reserves and the RCs that is easily possible. In terms of cost to pay units, 50 of my average stats archers cost 70 gold per week.
-
For the record:
Those who have the ability to look into this have been made aware that people are suspicious of this. I cannot comment any further, for the obvious reasons, until a decision has been made.
-
You third one is the most telling in my opinion. They may be working with an army they can't afford long term. Given the gold reserves and the RCs that is easily possible. In terms of cost to pay units, 50 of my average stats archers cost 70 gold per week.
I am not accusing anyone of cheating, and don't necessarily think they are, but I"d like to know what system they've concocted because it sounds extremely useful.
But yes, your gold estimates per unit are a bit low. It costs a bit more to maintain the unit sizes they are doing so and their cs numbers seem just huge for Dwilight's standards. If PeL could pull just 1/3rd of the strength that they are with our third-half of their nobles we'd be fine in our war.
-
I am not accusing anyone of cheating, and don't necessarily think they are, but I"d like to know what system they've concocted because it sounds extremely useful.
But yes, your gold estimates per unit are a bit low. It costs a bit more to maintain the unit sizes they are doing so and their cs numbers seem just huge for Dwilight's standards. If PeL could pull just 1/3rd of the strength that they are with our third-half of their nobles we'd be fine in our war.
Solaria isn't that far off. Our 17 nobles are just shy of 10k, and we are currently refitting. Of course noble count isn't all that matters. Not that it is the most relevant number, but in terms of total economy Solaria has 3k to their 4k.
-
Solaria isn't that far off. Our 17 nobles are just shy of 10k, and we are currently refitting. Of course noble count isn't all that matters. Not that it is the most relevant number, but in terms of total economy Solaria has 3k to their 4k.
Noble count is not the determining factor in my opinion anyway. I think gold is. Pian en Luries has very close to the amount of gold income that they do (Auvrendil?, spelling probably wrong) but could never hope to field even 15-20k cs.
-
Noble count is not the determining factor in my opinion anyway. I think gold is. Pian en Luries has very close to the amount of gold income that they do (Auvrendil?, spelling probably wrong) but could never hope to field even 15-20k cs.
It is a factor though. Smaller units are cheaper, and have a higher CS per man/per gold spent as well.
I'm not 100% on how much of a factor it would be, but 2000 identical men spread into 40 units should be cheaper and provide a higher CS then if we spread them into 20 units.
When we talk about gold, the thing is we are so far talking about a rather short term boost to their military strength. Gold supplies can be built up for this, and if there is no gold drain on the realm (tournaments, people sending off gold to the family, food imports) you could build up the gold needed for a big CS boost. Nothing much has happened in the war for a while now, giving them time to build up gold reserves.
-
Where are you getting their gold values from. The statistics page shows a very characteristic investment pattern which has now tailed off, they have the second lowest raw income on the continent.
-
Realm page, which I believe just shows the total gold of the regions, given perfect production and 10% tax. Like I said, not a great indicator of true gold income. Then again the stats page is not perfect either, and doesn't take into account things like tax rates.
-
More nobles you have, bigger CS you can build with the same gold. The CS per unit diminishes more as you have more units. If you recruit 30 men with 400 CS, you won't get 800 CS with 60 men of same quality.
-
More nobles you have, bigger CS you can build with the same gold. The CS per unit diminishes more as you have more units. If you recruit 30 men with 400 CS, you won't get 800 CS with 60 men of same quality.
Exactly. They have the highest noble count on Dwilight. Combined with strict investments and tight coordination, that could explain the total CS. We'll have to see whether they are able to maintain their number or not, though, and to what degree.
-
I don’t really want to do this but since these reports are from over a week to a month ago I can’t see it mattering. However, clearly this needs clarifying. These are our tax incomes.
3062 gold.
3539 gold.
3186 gold.
3476 gold.
300 of which pays our 5KCS of militia in Candiels each week.
Trust me, it doesn't take 3000 gold to keep a standing army of 11 KCS paid. We’ve been building up for a month, that’s why we can only ever attack Madina every three weeks or so, and with our RC’s which seem rather cheap and are mostly all enlarged we can rally up a lot of infantry in just a few days and with a few drafts. That is partially why Candiel’s morale is at stoic at the moment. Next tax is going to be nasty because the city is down to plodding since we’ve been in Madina, but all that mattered was that we broke Tower Fatmilak. We can afford to take a week to recover. Recruiting 10 of our best infantry only just costs more than 40 gold and the archers I hire are something like 28 gold per 10. Very easy on a Lord’s wages to get 100 archers, which are about 800 CS.
Yeah, there are a lot of investments in Candiels, and the tax boom just before we attacked helped quite a bit. We weren’t going to attack just then and then got landed with about 300 extra gold. I don’t see why other realms can’t rally as much CS when they need to, it really hasn’t been that difficult for us, with minimal planning. Ruler taxes are high so there’s always a good pool of gold to be handed out to the units that need it, and any extra gold I don’t use I hand out. There’s also a reason why the Motte and Bailey in Candiels Fields has been almost falling down for several months now, and at the moment is at 72 % damaged. We’ve been focussed on building an army to break Madina. Wasting gold on stuff behind the lines is worthless.
Oh yeah, even I'll admit Allomere has taken a few prestige knocks to get family gold in the past week. No one is denying that. That’s the problem, you’re all talking as if we’ve been maintaining this CS for ages, we haven’t ; we’ve spent a month saving gold and spent it all in one go. There was no other way to challenge TF.
-
And as the running joke in Allomere's roleplays go, I can give you another explanation.
"How is your military so powerful?"
"We use children, lots of children"
-
I don’t really want to do this but since these reports are from over a week to a month ago I can’t see it mattering. However, clearly this needs clarifying. These are our tax incomes.
3062 gold.
3539 gold.
3186 gold.
3476 gold.
300 of which pays our 5KCS of militia in Candiels each week.
Trust me, it doesn't take 3000 gold to keep a standing army of 11 KCS paid. We’ve been building up for a month, that’s why we can only ever attack Madina every three weeks or so, and with our RC’s which seem rather cheap and are mostly all enlarged we can rally up a lot of infantry in just a few days and with a few drafts. That is partially why Candiel’s morale is at stoic at the moment. Next tax is going to be nasty because the city is down to plodding since we’ve been in Madina, but all that mattered was that we broke Tower Fatmilak. We can afford to take a week to recover. Recruiting 10 of our best infantry only just costs more than 40 gold and the archers I hire are something like 28 gold per 10. Very easy on a Lord’s wages to get 100 archers, which are about 800 CS.
Yeah, there are a lot of investments in Candiels, and the tax boom just before we attacked helped quite a bit. We weren’t going to attack just then and then got landed with about 300 extra gold. I don’t see why other realms can’t rally as much CS when they need to, it really hasn’t been that difficult for us, with minimal planning. Ruler taxes are high so there’s always a good pool of gold to be handed out to the units that need it, and any extra gold I don’t use I hand out. There’s also a reason why the Motte and Bailey in Candiels Fields has been almost falling down for several months now, and at the moment is at 72 % damaged. We’ve been focussed on building an army to break Madina. Wasting gold on stuff behind the lines is worthless.
Oh yeah, even I'll admit Allomere has taken a few prestige knocks to get family gold in the past week. No one is denying that. That’s the problem, you’re all talking as if we’ve been maintaining this CS for ages, we haven’t ; we’ve spent a month saving gold and spent it all in one go. There was no other way to challenge TF.
Why can't most realms do this? Because most realms of 40 nobles lack the singular focus and unity displayed in Aurvandil. It is very rare to see this level of activity across a realm, the high level of co-ordination. Does that make Aurvandil cheats? No its just always going to turn heads since it is against the norm.
-
And as the running joke in Allomere's roleplays go, I can give you another explanation.
"How is your military so powerful?"
"We use children, lots of children"
Glaumring, he stole your idea.
-
Why can't most realms do this? Because most realms of 40 nobles lack the singular focus and unity displayed in Aurvandil. It is very rare to see this level of activity across a realm, the high level of co-ordination. Does that make Aurvandil cheats? No its just always going to turn heads since it is against the norm.
Seeing as the attack was over the course of 2 turns, it wasn't hard to have full participation especially with a 9 hour travel time. My unit is also 8 days unpaid and I have 1 gold on me. We put everything behind this assault, knowing that it would crush Madina and the consequences wouldnt outweigh the benefits.
-
Seeing as the attack was over the course of 2 turns, it wasn't hard to have full participation especially with a 9 hour travel time. My unit is also 8 days unpaid and I have 1 gold on me. We put everything behind this assault, knowing that it would crush Madina and the consequences wouldnt outweigh the benefits.
I don't think you understand. In most realms it is almost impossible to get 100% of the realm into armies to start with. Always there are people that have better things to do, or who are only interested in courtier work etc. Secondly even when you just look at people in armies, two turn more or not 80% successful movement is generally considered good. The Lions in Fontan had 100% movement, but they were a single army of the realm. Their movement combined with good leadership was instrumental to Fontans war effort. When that one army was lost, Fontans fortunes in that war changed for the worst. If Fontan could have relied on 100% participation for even ONE battle that would have been a huge thing.
You were a member of Enweil, when was the last time you saw 100% of the nobility of that realm arrive to a battle on time?
There are always realms that will manage this level of co-ordination. Envy will generally make people suspicious.
-
The Lions in Fontan had 100% movement, but they were a single army of the realm.
And it is also widely suspected that the Lions were not just a single army, but a single player, too. When things started to go south for their leader, and it looked like he might be outed, he rage-quit. And so did all his "friends and family", too. Within a few minutes of each other.
-
And it is also widely suspected that the Lions were not just a single army, but a single player, too. When things started to go south for their leader, and it looked like he might be outed, he rage-quit. And so did all his "friends and family", too. Within a few minutes of each other.
Yes I remember. A few lions remained but certainly the bulk of the force left within the same turn.
-
Realm page, which I believe just shows the total gold of the regions, given perfect production and 10% tax. Like I said, not a great indicator of true gold income. Then again the stats page is not perfect either, and doesn't take into account things like tax rates.
The realm page gives perfect production, but not 10% tax. It gives daily gold output that can be taxed, I'm pretty sure.
The realm stats page give gold produced, after accounting for production, assuming a 10% tax rate.
-
Why can't most realms do this? Because most realms of 40 nobles lack the singular focus and unity displayed in Aurvandil. It is very rare to see this level of activity across a realm, the high level of co-ordination. Does that make Aurvandil cheats? No its just always going to turn heads since it is against the norm.
Then again, all the Aurvandillians (?) could do was sit in Candiels. They were already rallied, and could maintain a well-equipped army without much effort.
The attacking order wasn't exactly complex, either...
-
Then again, all the Aurvandillians (?) could do was sit in Candiels. They were already rallied, and could maintain a well-equipped army without much effort.
The attacking order wasn't exactly complex, either...
Is true. Perdan and others have been known to pull the same thing off. And generally have attracted the same accusations whenever they do it. Like I said, envy. When you see a realm of dedicated players being successful, while your own realm is stuck with infighting sometime people let envy get the better of them.
-
That is generally why people complain. Its not impossible, but it is extremely uncommon to see realms operate at such a degree of efficiency. Sirion has a pretty efficient gold system, it doesn't come close to what Aurvandil would need. People will jump to cheating accusations, because some of the player made use of an exploit before. But yes it would be unfair to accuse them of cheating in this instance without some sort of proof.
Can't see them calling on family money, that would dry up soon enough when the family gets tired of being a bank. Constant investments could work, but that would imply the army is going to be in trouble with everyone currently fighting, or they have stockpiled enough to get by.
Nobody said they were cheating. But many of us are wondering if they are. It's not the same.
I'd just like someone with the power to check to look if it's all legit. Just a legitimacy check would satisfy me.
-
Nobody said they were cheating. But many of us are wondering if they are. It's not the same.
I'd just like someone with the power to check to look if it's all legit. Just a legitimacy check would satisfy me.
Then why not send a PM to a member of the Dev Team or Tom? Why post in public on the forum? This whole topic was just inviting a flame war and was always going to end with people venting against Aurvandil.
-
I would be very interested in knowing how Aurvandil got so powerful.
But not in the sense that I think they're cheating; more in the sense that I'm just really curious to know. Irombrozia squeezed 12k out of 1-2k gold sometimes.
But, then again, Twinblade was running half a dozen or more multis in Irombrozia at the time... so it's a moot example.
But, yeah, I'm not really thinking "cheating." I just want to know, because it's genuinely impressive.
-
It just reeks of Thulsoma's exploits. And these ARE the same guys, aren't they? No offense to the players who play there, but I've never seen anyone achieve such things in a legitimate way before.
Maybe other people kept better notes, but from what I remember off the top of my head Aurvandil's performance has no common measure with what Thulsoma did. Aurvandil has close to 100k pop and 10 regions - it's a real realm. Thulsoma at some point had nothing more than two regions with a couple hundred peasants each, it looked more like Zuma lands than anything else.
-
Then why not send a PM to a member of the Dev Team or Tom? Why post in public on the forum? This whole topic was just inviting a flame war and was always going to end with people venting against Aurvandil.
People have been respecful, have they not? I haven't seen a single flame.
Can't write to magistrates because they lack investigation powers. Can't file a titan report against a realm. I know Tom is pretty busy and I'm not sure if the devs can/do this kind of thing, nor how to contact them. Hence why I asked here, hoping perhaps someone who saw how things go on in Aurvandil could shed some light.
-
Can't write to magistrates because they lack investigation powers.
If it becomes necessary to investigate something like this, Tom is willing to provide the Magistrates with the information they will need via the tools to which he has access.
Can't file a titan report against a realm.
If you think that you need to file a Titan's report against a realm, report the ruler, and specify the details in the report that the problem applies to the entire realm.
-
People have been respecful, have they not? I haven't seen a single flame.
Can't write to magistrates because they lack investigation powers. Can't file a titan report against a realm. I know Tom is pretty busy and I'm not sure if the devs can/do this kind of thing, nor how to contact them. Hence why I asked here, hoping perhaps someone who saw how things go on in Aurvandil could shed some light.
As Banker of the realm and a clear individual, I can say there's been no cheating or I would've seen it somehow. What mainly happens is constant investments from a variety of players who have Lordships on other characters. Constant investments into our capital with a high number of nobles and high tax rate. Plus a single-city realm has cheaper recruits.
-
Nobody said they were cheating. But many of us are wondering if they are. It's not the same.
I'd just like someone with the power to check to look if it's all legit. Just a legitimacy check would satisfy me.
As I said, those with the ability to look have been informed. If there's anything shady going on, I have little doubt it will be discovered.
-
People have been respecful, have they not? I haven't seen a single flame.
Can't write to magistrates because they lack investigation powers. Can't file a titan report against a realm. I know Tom is pretty busy and I'm not sure if the devs can/do this kind of thing, nor how to contact them. Hence why I asked here, hoping perhaps someone who saw how things go on in Aurvandil could shed some light.
You can send a PM through the forum to any member of the Dev Team.
-
I know Tom is pretty busy and I'm not sure if the devs can/do this kind of thing, nor how to contact them.
Bah, that's just bullhockey right there. You spent years on IRC!
-
Whoa whoa whoa, I don't think we players of Saxon Thulsoma actually did 'cheat'. We leeched off family gold, burned through honour/prestige, then recouped lost honour/prestige during the sieges, heh. Then the mechanics were changed to make that not-possible, so prior to that, I think it was a legal way to defend a keep.
-
No, it was not. Contrary to the motto that exploiters just love to bleat, just because something isn't specifically banned by a developer doesn't mean it's legit to use. Common sense and a sense of fair play should be exercised by a player to figure out if something is fine to do or simply an abuse that hasn't been reported yet. Unfortunately not everyone has that sense of fair play.
-
There was no explicit punishment for the abuse of family gold because there was no explicit rule forbidding it.
However, it was clearly abuse of the system, in a way we had never thought people would be brazen enough to try, which is why we went to considerable trouble to put in additional safeguards to prevent anyone else from getting the mistaken impression that their family's fortune is their personal ever-regenerating pot of money to be drawn on at will.
-
Yes I remember. A few lions remained but certainly the bulk of the force left within the same turn.
The lion was a small army, not amounting to more than fifteen people if I remember correctly. And back then the other armies of Fontan were averaging 80% movement rate, but that's excluding the 1/4 to 1/3 of your army who doesn't have a unit, have difficulty intepreting orders, wounded, in jail, inactive, or decided time was better spent exploring the capital. Even Sirion with 120 nobles then, on average I see them fielding 40-60 nobles in attack.
To have 41 out of 43 nobles be warriors, that's impressive.
To have 41 out of 43 nobles field units, that's terrific.
To have 41 out of 43 nobles attack in cohesion, PRICELESS!
You guys deserve a pat on the back, or many pats on the same back? I'm really curious.
As I said, those with the ability to look have been informed. If there's anything shady going on, I have little doubt it will be discovered.
The smart criminals are generally two steps ahead of the cops.
-
The smart criminals are generally two steps ahead of the cops.
The cops don't have hooks into the source code of the world letting them know what the criminals are doing at every step, with no way for the criminals to avoid it if they want to stay in the game (which, in the cop/criminal case, is "life" ;D ).
-
The cops don't have hooks into the source code of the world letting them know what the criminals are doing at every step, with no way for the criminals to avoid it if they want to stay in the game (which, in the cop/criminal case, is "life" ;D ).
i guess you're right...
-
The cops don't have hooks into the source code of the world letting them know what the criminals are doing at every step, with no way for the criminals to avoid it if they want to stay in the game (which, in the cop/criminal case, is "life" ;D ).
Unless you're an Agent...
-
Unless you're an Agent...
In that case, you are "the cops". :)
-
Unless you're an Agent...
The best part of being me...
(http://images.wikia.com/matrix/images/c/c8/Agent_Smith2.jpg)
Is that there's so many of me.
-
What mainly happens is constant investments from a variety of players who have Lordships on other characters. Constant investments into our capital with a high number of nobles and high tax rate. Plus a single-city realm has cheaper recruits.
Thought for discussion:
Maybe frequent investments by the same character with no family contributions should suffer penalties/diminishing returns just like requests for family gold?
I want to be clear I'm not making an accusation of abuse. Heavy investment, IMHO, is not abuse. I'm just wondering what people would think of placing the same or similar restrictions on family investments as we do on family gold.*
*Especially as investments are an infinite loop. If all recipients of taxes reinvest in their family, it generates more gold, for more investments next time. This can be continued ad infinitum to allow a small realm to accumulate large sums of gold. With, say, a 5% return on investment (not counting if you raise productivity from below 100% and thus gain food output for sale), it would take about, what, 15 investments to double your money? If you ran 1 investment every 4 days, you could double in 60 days? If a whole realm did that, you could double your realm's effective income in a couple of months, provided you didn't spend any of the excess gold and had perfect coordination.
-
I think it's difficult enough to reach such a level of cooperation... And people who can pull it of, should be rewarded for it?
-
I think it's difficult enough to reach such a level of cooperation... And people who can pull it of, should be rewarded for it?
The problem is, some people don't pull it off by attracting good, active players to their realms the way most of us have to.
Some people pull it off by having a group of OOC friends they can call on to join a realm who they know are able to be online almost any time of the day, and who can always be counted on to log on at least 4 times per turn.
This can be particularly true of groups of people who come to BattleMaster from other online games, where the advantages you can get from being online almost constantly are generally significantly greater than they are here. There are clans of 100+ people in some games, where they can be certain of having dozens online at any given time, and more available to come online if they get a call asking them to.
I don't think Aurvandil is quite as bad as one of these latter cases. However, we have to consider the possibility that it's one of the former, because that's not the kind of thing that's good for BattleMaster. It gives realms run by such a group an unfair and unmatchable advantage over other realms of similar size. Furthermore, such groups by their very nature (even if they don't specifically intend to do so) tend to be more willing to communicate with and accept into leadership positions members of their own group. This shuts out other players from enjoying that realm to the fullest, and it keeps the players in the group from enjoying the BattleMaster community to the fullest.
In short, when OOC groups calibrated to maximum efficiency come to BattleMaster and try to take over places, everyone loses.
-
Is Aurvandil cheating I dont know but I find it kind of fishy for a realm of their size and gold output CS to go up so high. Though they do have pretty much double the amount of nobles as most realms.
Though I find it funny that all the nobles in Aurvandil came from Thulsoma and the other realms that declared war on the SA realms and got crushed. We realms in the north sent them running all the way down south now you get to deal with them and they are destroying you. I feel a request from the south for a SA crusade lol. Would be funny to see a army of 50k + to come down to the south to bail out the southern realms from the might of Ayrvandil.
-
In short, when OOC groups calibrated to maximum efficiency come to BattleMaster and try to take over places, everyone loses.
I don't think limiting the rewards for legitimate dedication is necessarily a win for everyone, though. :-\
From my understanding, whether or not a clan is considered abusive is not so much about what they're doing (working together efficiently) but how they do it (by excluding everyone else). If a clan is excluding the community then it makes more sense to me to punish the actual abuse (excluding the community) rather than limiting how successful *anyone and everyone* can be with the features clans could unduly profit from (anything from elections to armies to investments). BattleMaster is a team-oriented game, there need to be rewards for working together well. And I don't think we should curb those rewards because there exist people who cheat.
-
I don't think limiting the rewards for legitimate dedication is necessarily a win for everyone, though. :-\
Oh, certainly not. I have no intention of doing so, and honestly, I can't see any reasonable way of doing so without simply breaking the game.
From my understanding, whether or not a clan is considered abusive is not so much about what they're doing (working together efficiently) but how they do it (by excluding everyone else). If a clan is excluding the community then it makes more sense to me to punish the actual abuse (excluding the community) rather than limiting how successful *anyone and everyone* can be with the features clans could unduly profit from (anything from elections to armies to investments). BattleMaster is a team-oriented game, there need to be rewards for working together well. And I don't think we should curb those rewards because there exist people who cheat.
This is absolutely the case. The only way to discourage abusive clan behaviour is to a) state upfront that we don't like it, and it's bad for the game, b) watch for situations that appear to be abusive OOC clans, c) inform them of our distaste for the behavior, and d) if they don't change it, start applying appropriate punishments.
-
This is absolutely the case. The only way to discourage abusive clan behaviour is to a) state upfront that we don't like it, and it's bad for the game, b) watch for situations that appear to be abusive OOC clans, c) inform them of our distaste for the behavior, and d) if they don't change it, start applying appropriate punishments.
I think it's prolly bout ethics, it ain't against the rules, but nobody likes it if a clan comes in and take down a realm with almost no chance against them. If this was a smaller island, the northern realms would already have seriously considered marching south, to set things right in a way. now as it is, the travelling times are a bitch, so I doubt anything concrete will happen against them IC, unless they try Fissoa or Barca next.
I doubt anyone can come up with a fair rule against such clan powergaming.
-
Umm... you really think that the SA realms would march south to save Madina? Madina was part of the coalition of realms that declared that SA was the Great Evil that must be stopped at all costs. Sorry, but we're laughing at Madina. (In an IC sense, of course. OOC, I have sympathy for them, because I know what it's like trying to fight these people.)
-
Yeah, they're fun. Can't say I'm terribly upset to see them tearing up someone else's backyard for a change, though I have to say they do keep things interesting in their neighborhood. I could tell Madina was in trouble when all those quiet, nearly unknown Averothian nobles who paused right after Valkyrja fell suddenly started turning up in my dungeons while trying to sneak south. That was about a month or two ago.
You know what's really ironic though? I believe that the ruler of Madina who organized the whole League of Free Nations schtick appointed the duke who seceded, then followed him in the secession. Which means that Madina got stuck with the blame for something that the nobles of Aurvandil actually organized. Priceless. ;D
-
Do food sales count in the realm income statistics? Because I know that Aurvandil (and Madina) sold food, not only to D'Hara, but to the Zuma as well. And at the prices the Zuma offered...a 1000 bushels could get them 800 gold.
-
Do food sales count in the realm income statistics? Because I know that Aurvandil (and Madina) sold food, not only to D'Hara, but to the Zuma as well. And at the prices the Zuma offered...a 1000 bushels could get them 800 gold.
No, food income is not included.
-
Do food sales count in the realm income statistics? Because I know that Aurvandil (and Madina) sold food, not only to D'Hara, but to the Zuma as well. And at the prices the Zuma offered...a 1000 bushels could get them 800 gold.
We have never sold food to the Zuma, only to D'Hara so far. As I said, constant investments. Not by the same character, but by multiple characters every so often
-
I remember when Morek fought Thulsoma and the Saxons used the exploit. Some people considered it irritating and frustrating, personally I enjoyed that war as it was a real challenge. Moreover I never saw Morek players focus so much on the game and improve their effort so in the end, it's good that the exploit has been solved (and that we won the war of course) but in gaming temrs I'd see this as an exciting challenge if I was a player of Madina or of the Moot.
Fighting a clan standing in a regular realm with not-so-active players from different timezones (and perhaps with a real life to take care) it's more rewarding.
-
The situation between Auravandil/Madina could be compared to RL China and Taiwan. It's a question of who's legit when X has the land and the name but Y has the people.
-
I remember when Morek fought Thulsoma and the Saxons used the exploit. Some people considered it irritating and frustrating, personally I enjoyed that war as it was a real challenge. Moreover I never saw Morek players focus so much on the game and improve their effort so in the end, it's good that the exploit has been solved (and that we won the war of course) but in gaming temrs I'd see this as an exciting challenge if I was a player of Madina or of the Moot.
Fighting a clan standing in a regular realm with not-so-active players from different timezones (and perhaps with a real life to take care) it's more rewarding.
I'm sure it was very fun for you, as the result was never in doubt. All the other side's cheating and OOC clanning allowed them to do was resist you for longer than you expected. I'd say it's a little bit different when the sides are relatively even, but because one side has a clan they steamroll you.
-
We have never sold food to the Zuma, only to D'Hara so far. As I said, constant investments. Not by the same character, but by multiple characters every so often
There isn´t any region with "Booming" production right now. Also, investments are able to raise the production to 200, perhaps 250%, during two or three days. A noble would receive 100, 125 gold coins instead 50.
You need about 60-70 gold coins to maintain a unit of 700-800 cs every week, plus repairs, but most of the gold would be used recruiting... will fall the numbers of the Army of Aurvandil sooner or later?
-
The situation between Auravandil/Madina could be compared to RL China and Taiwan. It's a question of who's legit when X has the land and the name but Y has the people.
eh, what?
-
There isn´t any region with "Booming" production right now. Also, investments are able to raise the production to 200, perhaps 250%, during two or three days. A noble would receive 100, 125 gold coins instead 50.
It doesn't work quite that way. When you do an investment, the boost to production drops daily. And the higher it is above normal, the faster it drops. So if it goes to 200% on day 1, it will probably drop to 170% on day 2, and 155 on day 3, etc. So over the entire tax week, you won't have double production. You may average out to 140% or so. Maybe 150. So your knight that normally gets 50 may end up with 75 or 80 gold, at most.
-
Thought for discussion:
Maybe frequent investments by the same character with no family contributions should suffer penalties/diminishing returns just like requests for family gold?
I want to be clear I'm not making an accusation of abuse. Heavy investment, IMHO, is not abuse. I'm just wondering what people would think of placing the same or similar restrictions on family investments as we do on family gold.*
*Especially as investments are an infinite loop. If all recipients of taxes reinvest in their family, it generates more gold, for more investments next time. This can be continued ad infinitum to allow a small realm to accumulate large sums of gold. With, say, a 5% return on investment (not counting if you raise productivity from below 100% and thus gain food output for sale), it would take about, what, 15 investments to double your money? If you ran 1 investment every 4 days, you could double in 60 days? If a whole realm did that, you could double your realm's effective income in a couple of months, provided you didn't spend any of the excess gold and had perfect coordination.
90% of my investments are at a 10 gold loss. I have invested often in Iato and rurals in Fheuv'n, and except this last time, it was always at a 10 gold loss. It was not an infinite loop of money creation. Rather, that 10 gold penalty was my "fee" to not need to take a honor hit and to not have to bother redistributing it.
I am overall in disfavor of restrictions to how we can use family wealth, because of 1) there are so little ways to use it and 2) it dictates us how to RP our family. This second point is what bothers me the most. Why should the game tell me that it's not okay for well-off family members, who in their days received plenty of help, to back up another family member reach his ambitions. Nobody outside of the family needs to know who gives money to who, and there are plenty of ways to RP justify "investing" in family abroad.
-
The restrictions are there for a reason. Your family is not your bank. You can't just have another character in Atamara or somewhere to send gold to your family so some other character on Dwilight or some place can get that gold. You should only play with the gold you get in whichever continent your character is on. Should be grateful that we can ever ask our family for any financial support.
-
The restrictions are there for a reason. Your family is not your bank. You can't just have another character in Atamara or somewhere to send gold to your family so some other character on Dwilight or some place can get that gold.
This is true, generally speaking. If you have a character on Atamara, you should have a reason to have a character on Atamara. Just producing family gold is not an excellent reason.
You should only play with the gold you get in whichever continent your character is on.
That's bringing things a bit too far. Surely if this was intended, then it would be restricted to work that way.
If you keep calling on family gold, you do get diminishing returns. This is to stop you from having a one-way funnel. As long as you don't receive these warnings, you should be in the clear.
-
The restrictions are there for a reason. Your family is not your bank. You can't just have another character in Atamara or somewhere to send gold to your family so some other character on Dwilight or some place can get that gold. You should only play with the gold you get in whichever continent your character is on. Should be grateful that we can ever ask our family for any financial support.
If we couldn't, then there'd be no point for being able to send gold to the family at all.
And since we can, it makes little sense that we can't RP it as we deem fit. These are medieval families, not 21rst century north-American families. If the patriarch would say "give a part part of your (huge) income to your brother so that our clan's influence spreads to his parts of the world", then the son would do it. Sure, the patriarch would expect some returns on those investments or he'd stop demanding it, but the game's a poor judge of whether that's being accomplished or not.
-
eh... constant investment... if you are doing it on your own, it means you'll lose money. because even assuming 100% efficiency (eg.. you chuck 300 in, the region gets 300 out) you are splitting the dole with someone else. (knights, duke)
well.. it depends on the region... anyway... if all the stakeholders in the region do it.. it does mean organised funds funnelling from elsewhere to that region.
-
eh... constant investment... if you are doing it on your own, it means you'll lose money. because even assuming 100% efficiency (eg.. you chuck 300 in, the region gets 300 out) you are splitting the dole with someone else. (knights, duke)
well.. it depends on the region... anyway... if all the stakeholders in the region do it.. it does mean organised funds funnelling from elsewhere to that region.
Why should the only returns that count be profits in gold? Gold is just a means to an end. And when one's ambitions are great, it often doesn't matter if the gold flows through one's hands or another's.
-
well.. it depends on the region... anyway... if all the stakeholders in the region do it.. it does mean organised funds funnelling from elsewhere to that region.
That was my thought. In a well-organized setting, it could be a problem.
Not a huge issue, just a thought.
Personally, I have never had a zero- or negative-return investment.
-
I am overall in disfavor of restrictions to how we can use family wealth, because of 1) there are so little ways to use it and 2) it dictates us how to RP our family. This second point is what bothers me the most. Why should the game tell me that it's not okay for well-off family members, who in their days received plenty of help, to back up another family member reach his ambitions. Nobody outside of the family needs to know who gives money to who, and there are plenty of ways to RP justify "investing" in family abroad.
It's not just intended to be a "realism" argument. It's a balance issue.
-
I for one would not be sad to see family gold, and all the problems/arguments it causes, disappear. I've been in far too many realms where people are paranoid that inactive players are siphoning money off to the family for use somewhere else.
-
Why should the only returns that count be profits in gold? Gold is just a means to an end. And when one's ambitions are great, it often doesn't matter if the gold flows through one's hands or another's.
the whole point of a constant investment circle is that you can do it all the time. if you keep losing money, and doesn't get it back from whatever source, then it'll end. with multiple families doing it, it'll take longer to "run out" so to speak. if ever.
-
the whole point of a constant investment circle is that you can do it all the time. if you keep losing money, and doesn't get it back from whatever source, then it'll end. with multiple families doing it, it'll take longer to "run out" so to speak. if ever.
Except you can replenish the family gold using characters from other islands. The goal may not be to introduce a perpetual money machine using a single character, but rather to increase the gold in a realm you care about at the expense of a realm you don't care about.
-
eh... constant investment... if you are doing it on your own, it means you'll lose money. because even assuming 100% efficiency (eg.. you chuck 300 in, the region gets 300 out) you are splitting the dole with someone else. (knights, duke)
well.. it depends on the region... anyway... if all the stakeholders in the region do it.. it does mean organised funds funnelling from elsewhere to that region.
Most of the time, at least on the old tax system, the investment was profitable (the region produces more than it consumed with the investment), not taking into account when it's not fully populated (thus production is below 100%), so the food production also gets boosted.
-
Wait what? You don't get much gold out of investment as before?
-
Unless you have enough knights you probably run your region at a reduced tax efficiency. I would guess the investment increases the raw production, not the taxed one.
-
yes.. i know you can move gold from other continents... that's part of the point.
-
Wait what? You don't get much gold out of investment as before?
Normally I get a message like "you spent 220 family gold to improve production in Remton. Factoring in blah blah blah, your advisors expect a return of 200 gold."
It doesn't take a genious to figure out that's a loss of 20 gold.
(misspelling is on purpose)
-
Normally I get a message like "you spent 220 family gold to improve production in Remton. Factoring in blah blah blah, your advisors expect a return of 200 gold."
It doesn't take a genious to figure out that's a loss of 20 gold.
(misspelling is on purpose)
Yes, but you don't know if your advisors have taken the tax rate into consideration, or if they base that upon the standard 10% tax now do you.
-
I'll run this experiment on Dwilight in Nifelhold.
Taxes were just collected today. I run a rate of 14%, have no problems with control (since it's the capital). I don't think that many investments, if any, have been done here recently. I would expect this to net me a tidy profit.
Region Tax Report (8 hours, 12 minutes ago)
message to the lord and knights of Nifelhold
The following taxes were collected in Nifelhold. The tax rate for this collection was 14 % and the lords share was 10 %.
Regional income and expenses
Peasants Taxes 246 gold
Taxes from Guildhouses + 1 gold
Buildings Upkeep - 10 gold
Militia Payment - 46 gold
Collectable Tax Gold 191 gold
Estate of Size Peasants Tax Collected Knight Share Lord Share
Walter 40 % 2520 76 gold 68 gold 8 gold
Rohk 36 % 2268 68 gold 68 gold
Wild Lands 24 % 1512 22 gold 22 gold
Region Totals 166 gold 68 gold 98 gold
You have now invested 210 gold in this region, boosting production by 118 % to 218 %. Your advisors hope for a return of ca. 190 gold, if everything works well.
To ensure that your investment pays off, you should try to keep morale and realm control high and prevent enemies from looting. With its boosted production, Nifelhold is sure to be a prime target.
Bring it on, Summerdale :)
-
Except you can replenish the family gold using characters from other islands. The goal may not be to introduce a perpetual money machine using a single character, but rather to increase the gold in a realm you care about at the expense of a realm you don't care about.
Or from your realm at peace to your realm at war, but yea, this is pretty much it. It's an alternative way to funnel gold from one place to another, with a gold penalty instead of a honor penalty.
Most of the time, at least on the old tax system, the investment was profitable (the region produces more than it consumed with the investment), not taking into account when it's not fully populated (thus production is below 100%), so the food production also gets boosted.
Since when? Very rare were my investments that were "profitable". I'd say 10% produce a surplus of 10-20 gold, 10% broke even, and 80% ran a deficit of 10 gold.
Tax efficiency from the new system is probably making investments a lot less profitable, though.
-
Tax efficiency from the new system is probably making investments a lot less profitable, though.
Good. Maybe it will put a stop to some of the gold funneling.
-
Good. Maybe it will put a stop to some of the gold funneling.
What's the point of a feature if you just want to kill it by new features?
-
You can remove it, for all I care.
-
Got to agree with Indirik here. I've never been a fan of the systems that allow gold funnelling from other realms.
-
I agree remove it. I actually didn't even know it existed. Im pretty slow to learn all the tips and tricks of learning how to win BM.
-
Nobles draining gold for their families are the curse of many realms.
-
Got to agree with Indirik here. I've never been a fan of the systems that allow gold funnelling from other realms.
ah. but i used to use it all within the same region. 1 lord + 1 knight.. + someone else's knight
lord = priest... invest.. boost knight's income without upping their %
-
ah. but i used to use it all within the same region. 1 lord + 1 knight.. + someone else's knight
lord = priest... invest.. boost knight's income without upping their %
Yes, so changing investment to use gold/bonds on hand rather then family gold would allow people to still invest, but reduce the temptation to have noble gold farms running around. There are rumours of realms that love peace because the majority of the nobles are sending gold to the family and thus the realm is poorly equipped to fight a war for example.
-
Nobles draining gold for their families are the curse of many realms.
Kick them. If you allow that to happen, either you don't care for the realm or it is still a net benefit for the realm.
The "funneling" of gold out of a realm for personal profit or to aid your other character somewhere else is fully intentional. Its purpose is to create conflict. Absolutely nothing in the game says you have to take it, you know?
-
There are rumours of realms that love peace because the majority of the nobles are sending gold to the family and thus the realm is poorly equipped to fight a war for example.
Conquer them.
Really, this is a game of war and conflict. There is a very simple, straightforward solution to all of these problems. You just have to get your lazy ass up and do something in-game instead of in the forum. The game isn't "won" (by any definition) on the forum.
-
Kick them. If you allow that to happen, either you don't care for the realm or it is still a net benefit for the realm.
The "funneling" of gold out of a realm for personal profit or to aid your other character somewhere else is fully intentional. Its purpose is to create conflict. Absolutely nothing in the game says you have to take it, you know?
Absolutely agree; the problem is how to prove it. You don't get to see players' transactions.
If secret police reports would reveal, say, the last 5 bank transactions, THAT would be useful, and cracking down on gold leeching would be much easier.
-
Absolutely agree; the problem is how to prove it. You don't get to see players' transactions.
If secret police reports would reveal, say, the last 5 bank transactions, THAT would be useful, and cracking down on gold leeching would be much easier.
Prove it? But that's what judges are for! They provide proofs when needed!
-
Absolutely agree; the problem is how to prove it. You don't get to see players' transactions.
If secret police reports would reveal, say, the last 5 bank transactions, THAT would be useful, and cracking down on gold leeching would be much easier.
Their Lord and fellow knights know exactly how much gold they get each tax.
The Military Advisor can help you determine within a pretty reasonable estimate how much their unit costs per week.
The Secret Police can tell you how much gold on hand.
Do the math.
(No, I mean, literally: take the numbers there, do the math, and see whether they could be sending large sums home.)
-
You can also monitor their family gold.
-
Kick them. If you allow that to happen, either you don't care for the realm or it is still a net benefit for the realm.
The "funneling" of gold out of a realm for personal profit or to aid your other character somewhere else is fully intentional. Its purpose is to create conflict. Absolutely nothing in the game says you have to take it, you know?
Make the donation to the family public and we will. The problem is that usually it is either not known or not certain IC.
-
Their Lord and fellow knights know exactly how much gold they get each tax.
The Military Advisor can help you determine within a pretty reasonable estimate how much their unit costs per week.
The Secret Police can tell you how much gold on hand.
Do the math.
(No, I mean, literally: take the numbers there, do the math, and see whether they could be sending large sums home.)
Quite a lot of work which almost nobody actually spends. If the gold funneling is supposed to create conflicts it is failing at it.
Players' fault? Perhaps, but if the feature fails to take into account how much OoC effort they'll tend to make I'd be more inclined to blame the feature.
-
Players' fault?
People are gun shy about it. They've been told several times that if nobles want to send gold to their family, it's no one's business but their own. This new stance on "just ban them" is a bit of a reversal of former policy. ???
-
Absolutely agree; the problem is how to prove it. You don't get to see players' transactions.
Proof? Are you playing a modern CSI game or a medi-evil fantasy game? Who needs proof? The IC ban page says nothing about proof. If you think they do, kick them.
-
People are gun shy about it. They've been told several times that if nobles want to send gold to their family, it's no one's business but their own. This new stance on "just ban them" is a bit of a reversal of former policy. ???
Uh, no?
The feature is there, you can't stop them and I won't add any features that make it harder, impossible or provide monitoring.
But I don't think I ever said it's a right or anything.
-
Uh, no?
The feature is there, you can't stop them and I won't add any features that make it harder, impossible or provide monitoring.
But I don't think I ever said it's a right or anything.
In the past, you have said that you strongly disapproved of it, and I believe even said that you were thinking about making it an IR.
-
In the past, you have said that you strongly disapproved of it, and I believe even said that you were thinking about making it an IR.
That was my impression as well.
-
I find it somewhat odd that all these accusations are being made by no characters from Madina.
-
Jeez, you're not the brightest spark, are you? They'd distracted themselves and forgot all about your realm's possible cheating. Now you've reminded them.
-
Because I'm fairly certain that if we said a single thing it would be instantly leaped upon that we're only saying something because we're losing. :p
-
Jeez, you're not the brightest spark, are you? They'd distracted themselves and forgot all about your realm's possible cheating. Now you've reminded them.
That... is kind of a harsh thing to say. Poor taste, IMHO.
Because I'm fairly certain that if we said a single thing it would be instantly leaped upon that we're only saying something because we're losing. :p
A fair concern.
-
Tongue in cheek statements escape you, apparently.
-
I don't think they are cheating, but either way it's my understanding that the right people are checking, just to be sure.
What I do think is that they're absurdly well organized for a Battlemaster realm. What they've done takes discipline that most realms lack.
-
If most of their members are in a OOC clan. Then I see it as a type of cheating because it gives them a unfair advantage over the rest of the players in the game. I personally believe that their has to be some OOC character connection with some of these players in Aurvandil's not saying everyone but some. People play this game from all over the world and you want me to honesty believe that one realm just some how happened to gather all the active members that get on and move their characters at the same time. In a game like battlemaster this type of efficiency is just to really possible without some form of clanning or OOC orders.
-
Remember that "clans" playing BattleMaster, and playing it together in the same realm, is not illegal. So long as they follow the rules and the social contract, and are not exclusionary toward other players, then they are allowed to play, and to play together as a group.
-
Remember that "clans" playing BattleMaster, and playing it together in the same realm, is not illegal. So long as they follow the rules and the social contract, and are not exclusionary toward other players, then they are allowed to play, and to play together as a group.
So you are saying if I asked them if I could join their clan they have to let me in or they are breaking the rules and thus cheating?
-
No. We do not, and cannot, try to regulate what people do outside the game. We are concerned with behavior inside the game, and the treatment and acceptance of all of the players inside the game, regardless of their OOG associations.
If you ask to be a lord in Keplerstan, and the ruler of Keplerstan tells you "No, we only give out lordships to people in our 'l33t g4mezorz' clan", then that is exclusionary, and against the social contract.
-
No. We do not, and cannot, try to regulate what people do outside the game. We are concerned with behavior inside the game, and the treatment and acceptance of all of the players inside the game, regardless of their OOG associations.
If you ask to be a lord in Keplerstan, and the ruler of Keplerstan tells you "No, we only give out lordships to people in our 'l33t g4mezorz' clan", then that is exclusionary, and against the social contract.
Though, of course, the exact details on "where the line is" would have to be a Magistrates case.
Actually, that would, IMHO, be a really good case for the Magistrates.
-
Yes, it would. If someone had evidence that this is what was going on.
-
No. We do not, and cannot, try to regulate what people do outside the game. We are concerned with behavior inside the game, and the treatment and acceptance of all of the players inside the game, regardless of their OOG associations.
If you ask to be a lord in Keplerstan, and the ruler of Keplerstan tells you "No, we only give out lordships to people in our 'l33t g4mezorz' clan", then that is exclusionary, and against the social contract.
That leaves lots of room for people to still exclude players from positions and only give to clan members by making up excuses on why those nobles deserved those positions. I believe OOC clans in any shape or form in unfair play. You have a large group of friends that can coordinate outside of battlemaster and be much more efficient then normal players in the game.
-
You can also monitor their family gold.
That doesn't work if you are pulling it out as fast as you are putting it in.
-
Uh, no?
The feature is there, you can't stop them and I won't add any features that make it harder, impossible or provide monitoring.
But I don't think I ever said it's a right or anything.
I think, it was a statement about how a noble spends their gold with regards to the gold belonging to the noble and not the realm. Also banning people without proof leads to lots of complaining and people feeling they are treated unfairly.
-
That leaves lots of room for people to still exclude players from positions and only give to clan members by making up excuses on why those nobles deserved those positions. I believe OOC clans in any shape or form in unfair play. You have a large group of friends that can coordinate outside of battlemaster and be much more efficient then normal players in the game.
Might as well take off the IRC then... after all it can help some people do just that. Then there is IM services like MSN and Yahoo Messenger (anyone actually still use that?) or Skype or Ventrilo.... not to mention email, phone, text, physically talking....
-
Might as well take off the IRC then... after all it can help some people do just that. Then there is IM services like MSN and Yahoo Messenger (anyone actually still use that?) or Skype or Ventrilo.... not to mention email, phone, text, physically talking....
And if anyone has any evidence that communication on those forums is meaningful influencing the IC game experience, without there being reasonable IC corollaries, to the detriment of other players, they should bring it up before the Magistrates.
Or this forum, for that matter, would be included in that.
-
And if anyone has any evidence that communication on those forums is meaningful influencing the IC game experience, without there being reasonable IC corollaries, to the detriment of other players, they should bring it up before the Magistrates.
Or this forum, for that matter, would be included in that.
Which brings the point that was already made, we all use things that are not specifically the battlemaster messaging service to talk about IC things. For instance I might text someone when I have no net access for a period of time and ask them to pretty much take over the army I am the Marshal of. Does that directly lead to detriment of other players experience? Shouldnt think so... it just means real life happens and that occasionally the damn winds round here take out phone lines, power lines etc and instead of everyone then having a rubbish experience and wondering what is going on, things continue as normal and no one gets killed by the army of Daimons stomping through the army because they stayed without orders. Etc. The only thing I can see clans/cliques doing that breaks the rules is positions and exclusions of positions. Otherwise what is there to moan about?
If your army aint doing as well as the enemy army, then start giving more orders and punishing those (within the IR's!) that go against orders/ignore orders.
And damn Vellos... this forum is most definitely on the list!
-
Then there is IM services like MSN and Yahoo Messenger (anyone actually still use that?)
Back in the heyday of Perdan and the Great War on EC, we did a lot of military planning via MSN. On top of that, the messages flew hot and heavy IG, as well. Our 20+ member military council was hyperactive, with members available to handle all turn changes.
But, again, that kind of thing is not forbidden. You can use OOG forums, IRC, IM, e-mail, etc., to discuss the game. The key point still remains that those who are not part of that cannot be excluded from opportunities to participate in the realm and the activities of the game in the realm. If all your military planning is done OOG via a private forum, or an IRC chat room, and people not in those venues are excluded from participating, then you are in violation of the social contract, whether you're a "clan" or not.
Can this stuff be gamed by simply lying about what you're doing? Probably, if you're the sort to lie about what you're doing. But if you're caught, you can expect to be treated with extreme prejudice.
-
But, again, that kind of thing is not forbidden. You can use OOG forums, IRC, IM, e-mail, etc., to discuss the game. The key point still remains that those who are not part of that cannot be excluded from opportunities to participate in the realm and the activities of the game in the realm. If all your military planning is done OOG via a private forum, or an IRC chat room, and people not in those venues are excluded from participating, then you are in violation of the social contract, whether you're a "clan" or not.
Hm, I was under the impression that you could plan OOC, but you had to eventually bring all effective content IC?
That is, you're welcome to debate strategy on IRC or send messages IRC, but if you want your character to act in any way predicated on them, it must occur IC, IG. I believe this rule was developed in the context of torturing and spying: conversations via MSN that would happen IG would create lots of messages, thus upping the chance of a torture to reveal militarily sensitive info.
IMHO, it's almost never advisable to do any planning or discussion of IG actions OOG. Retroactive talking, like on this forum, is fine, but planning should be IG. But the rules on this aren't very clear.
Yet another good Magistrates case.
Regarding clans, I would think that positions would be the main issue. To the degree it can be demonstrated that they have an OOC clique that is not operating IGly and is making IC decisions OOG, it would be punishable, IMHO. Position apportionment would be the clearest place to observe this phenomenon; but then again many clans probably prefer more autocratic governments with less frequent position rotations.
-
I do not believe that's provable and thereby enforceable.
How do you prove that there has been planning out-of-game?
-
I do not believe that's provable and thereby enforceable.
How do you prove that there has been planning out-of-game?
No, not easy to enforce. It can be provable: if you see lots of people acting in coordination, Tom can check their messages (someone please correct me ASAP if I'm wrong). If he sees that they're not sending messages that explain their actions, but still engaging in non-random activity... OOG coordination.
-
Hm, I was under the impression that you could plan OOC, but you had to eventually bring all effective content IC?
That is, you're welcome to debate strategy on IRC or send messages IRC, but if you want your character to act in any way predicated on them, it must occur IC, IG. I believe this rule was developed in the context of torturing and spying: conversations via MSN that would happen IG would create lots of messages, thus upping the chance of a torture to reveal militarily sensitive info.
All orders must be passed IG/IC. You can't punish someone IG for things done OOG, or for not doing things IG that are discussed OOG, etc., etc.
Beyond that, I agree, that things may not quite be clear. Yes, things should be brought back into the game. You need to give the people IG a chance to participate.
Tom can check their messages (someone please correct me ASAP if I'm wrong).
Tom has direct DB access. He can get to anything that passes through the game. He, of course, has admin tools that make things easier than using SQL-fu all the time, though.
-
All orders must be passed IG/IC. You can't punish someone IG for things done OOG, or for not doing things IG that are discussed OOG, etc., etc.
I disagree, because according to that, you can organizate a rebellion OOG, and joining the underground at the same time. 20 nobles joining the underground, being at the capital and starting a rebellion at the same time is not fair play, in my opinion. The ruler would go mad, because he checked the underground a few hours before, because there were a lot of untrusted nobles sitting and rallyiing in the capital, but "nobody" was there.
I am against OOG talkings about strategies, because you will use them IG. I could arrest and torture the Generl of my enemies, but I couldn´t find any kind of information with him, except for the orders he gave to the MArshals... but .... he talked with the MArshals about the plans for tmorrow ( OOG obviously ) because the player behind the General will use that OOG conversation IG.
-
I disagree, because according to that, you can organizate a rebellion OOG, and joining the underground at the same time. 20 nobles joining the underground, being at the capital and starting a rebellion at the same time is not fair play, in my opinion. The ruler would go mad, because he checked the underground a few hours before, because there were a lot of untrusted nobles sitting and rallyiing in the capital, but "nobody" was there.
Does any serious, well-organized rebellion consist of people sitting around in the underground for weeks, waiting for just the right moment to rebel? I could be wrong on this one, never having organized a rebellion myself, but I understand from people that have done it, that the most successful rebellion pretty much consist of what you describe: Lots of people joining the underground as close to the last minute as possible so that they aren't discovered. It also prevents the ruler from catching on to the rebellion, since quite a few rulers have spies in the underground anyway. They would know when the rebellion limit was getting close.
Also, secret police can only be used once per turn. So the ruler could, at most, have checked only one person.
-
You can coordinate IC without using OOG means to join the underground at the last minute. After all, you usually have a good idea of who's not happy with the boss.
-
That leaves lots of room for people to still exclude players from positions and only give to clan members by making up excuses on why those nobles deserved those positions. I believe OOC clans in any shape or form in unfair play. You have a large group of friends that can coordinate outside of battlemaster and be much more efficient then normal players in the game.
Maybe so, but it's basically impossible to regulate what goes on outside the game. There are no tools we can use to monitor how players talk to each other when they aren't using BM as the messaging tool. And besides, where exactly do you draw the line on this sort of thing? My roommate plays BM. Does that make us a clan because it gives us an unfair advantage over others who can't shout at each other from across the hall? We can't outlaw having RL friends that you play the game with. I contend that it all comes down to the actions you actually take IG. If you're exclusionary, then we have a problem. But if the clan is willing to work with other players and give everyone a fair shot at participation in the realm, what is there that we can really complain about? I think it's been made clear that Tom feels that clans are against the spirit of the game, but outlawing them entirely is fraught with problems.
-
Maybe so, but it's basically impossible to regulate what goes on outside the game. There are no tools we can use to monitor how players talk to each other when they aren't using BM as the messaging tool. And besides, where exactly do you draw the line on this sort of thing? My roommate plays BM. Does that make us a clan because it gives us an unfair advantage over others who can't shout at each other from across the hall? We can't outlaw having RL friends that you play the game with. I contend that it all comes down to the actions you actually take IG. If you're exclusionary, then we have a problem. But if the clan is willing to work with other players and give everyone a fair shot at participation in the realm, what is there that we can really complain about? I think it's been made clear that Tom feels that clans are against the spirit of the game, but outlawing them entirely is fraught with problems.
I have not problem with friend's play together but when you have 10 or 15 people that are working together and planing OOC this this makes the game unfair for the rest. I mean 2 or 3 people is fine. It is just when you get into the higher numbers it just makes the game one sided. I just hope something can be in place to make it more fair for us normal players against clans. I mean I think it is great that a large number of people wish to play together and they are having fun but for the people playing against them it is not fun because they never stood a chance. Claning in my opinion is a lot like multi accounting.
-
I agree with Creed. Any decent clan is going to steamroll any realm they face, all else being equal. Not much fun for the other side. But I also realise there's virtually no way you could actually police this sort of thing.
-
I have not problem with friend's play together but when you have 10 or 15 people that are working together and planing OOC this this makes the game unfair for the rest. I mean 2 or 3 people is fine. It is just when you get into the higher numbers it just makes the game one sided. I just hope something can be in place to make it more fair for us normal players against clans. I mean I think it is great that a large number of people wish to play together and they are having fun but for the people playing against them it is not fun because they never stood a chance. Claning in my opinion is a lot like multi accounting.
But here is the difference, Aurvandil is sending everything IC through the Battlemaster Message System (or I assume so since they are still alive) thus it is not planning anything OOC its all Ingame.
The only difference is they happen to be following orders whereas some other realms have great difficulty in getting their military units to move.
-
I mean lets face it, the only objections to clanning are:
1. If its exclusive.
2. The fact they co-ordinate extremely well. Which is broken down into: If its down Out of Game, punish them. If its done ingame, its not fair they are still are a clan so punish them!
or at least that is how number 2 is starting to look like to me.
I mean if its done ingame, its fair enough - especially if they are INclusive or not exclusive. Fair play to them and there should be no hard feelings.
-
I mean lets face it, the only objections to clanning are:
1. If its exclusive.
2. The fact they co-ordinate extremely well. Which is broken down into: If its down Out of Game, punish them. If its done ingame, its not fair they are still are a clan so punish them!
or at least that is how number 2 is starting to look like to me.
I mean if its done ingame, its fair enough - especially if they are INclusive or not exclusive. Fair play to them and there should be no hard feelings.
The other big problem with a clan is not exactly how well they coordinate, but rather how consistently they move together.
If you've got 20-30 people who can all be counted on to move no more than an hour before the turn, every turn, that will more or less guarantee you can win a war against any single realm in BattleMaster. Heck, even just that many people who can be counted on to move to the right region every turn could probably do that for you.
Most realms can't manage that these days by pulling from the general BattleMaster population.
-
But here is the difference, Aurvandil is sending everything IC through the Battlemaster Message System (or I assume so since they are still alive) thus it is not planning anything OOC its all Ingame.
The only difference is they happen to be following orders whereas some other realms have great difficulty in getting their military units to move.
How can you justify claning as fair play it is not. While you can argue all you want that while in game they do not excluded players from their realm but the fact they are a clan is exclusive. No matter what they do they are going to play their characters for the benefit of their clan. For example lets say when nobles have to vote for their king clan members are going to be more likely to vote for a person inside their clan then just some random noble that joined their realm. I mean I know I am more likely to vote for my friend then I am for a random person even though I try to take my personal feeling out of the equation.
We all know that OOC information we get will inevitably be used in game. There is no one here that can say different. I mean if I said I was planning to over throw blank king and I had the support of enough nobles to do so. Who ever character that is going to look a lot harder on finding the traitors in game then if I said nothing on the forum.
-
The other big problem with a clan is not exactly how well they coordinate, but rather how consistently they move together.
If you've got 20-30 people who can all be counted on to move no more than an hour before the turn, every turn, that will more or less guarantee you can win a war against any single realm in BattleMaster. Heck, even just that many people who can be counted on to move to the right region every turn could probably do that for you.
Most realms can't manage that these days by pulling from the general BattleMaster population.
So basically if a group of friends play together but follow the IR and remains inclusive, then that is all right.
However, if a group of friends asks their friends to log in at a certain time by OOG means, then it's not legit.
It seems to me the IR are truly well written from that point of view....
-
Aurvandil win in the civil war with Madina was pretty much won because Aurvandil has a clan in it and Madina does not. The whole claned moved to Aurvandil regions and took the noble count way over what most realms have. Aurvandil has double the amount of nobles as any other realm. If there was not a clan this would not have happened. This makes the game unfair for the rest of the realms. They have no chance of gaining this many nobles especially on dwilight where it is one character per account and that is a lot of realm to chose from.
-
However, if a group of friends asks their friends to log in at a certain time by OOG means, then it's not legit.
Any time you ask someone to log in at a specific time (one hour before turn, 3PM GMT, etc.) it is a violation of the IRs, regardless of the communications channel used.
-
Any time you ask someone to log in at a specific time (one hour before turn, 3PM GMT, etc.) it is a violation of the IRs, regardless of the communications channel used.
Well, yes, but that's true clan or no clan, and the Titans can then easily find proof and lightning bolt the culprit.
Anyway, my point was that the IR can be taken as the line in the sand that separates an illegitimate clan from a legit group of friends. Friends who play the game together, use the in-game messaging system, are inclusive of other players and respect the IR are in the clear. Or do you think there are extra rules that they should submit to?
-
Aurvandil has double the amount of nobles as any other realm. If there was not a clan this would not have happened.
Over the past month, Aurvandil has gained 12 nobles while Madina has lost 11 nobles. Are these mostly people who left Madina for Aurvandil or new players coming in Aurvandil?
(I don't know the answer, I'm really asking. I know some people have switched realms.)
-
Well, yes, but that's true clan or no clan, and the Titans can then easily find proof and lightning bolt the culprit.
If it is done IG, and if someone reports it, then yes, the Titans can find it. If no one reports it, then it will never be found. So far as I know, the Titans do not engage in fishing expeditions for IR violations.
Or do you think there are extra rules that they should submit to?
Everyone is subject to the same, simple rules. No exceptions.
-
How can you justify claning as fair play it is not. While you can argue all you want that while in game they do not excluded players from their realm but the fact they are a clan is exclusive. No matter what they do they are going to play their characters for the benefit of their clan.
Because I am a very good Devil's Advocate when I want to be. Lets just take your two different statements:
For example lets say when nobles have to vote for their king clan members are going to be more likely to vote for a person inside their clan then just some random noble that joined their realm. I mean I know I am more likely to vote for my friend then I am for a random person even though I try to take my personal feeling out of the equation.
So you want to force people to vote for someone they do not know, for that random noble that joined their realm rather than someone they have already seen in action for a length of time and who, in all fairness, deserves it more (in their eyes) than the random noble?
Given the choice of someone who I had no idea about; or the person who I had been fighting alongside, who continually supported my actions and helped me... I know I would pick that person over the random person as well.
It's simple really, in Battlemaster characters makes relationships exactly for the point of having those other characters be in a position able to support them when the time arose. By your logic, I myself am in violation every time I voted for a Judge or chose a Marshal who happened to be friends with my character. And I am very sure that nearly every other character would be in violation too. It doesnt just make sense, it makes perfect sense. No one back then (same as right now) would be willing to vote a completely unknown person into a position of power over them, they would instead vote for one of their friends. Thats a fact of Real Life.
We all know that OOC information we get will inevitably be used in game. There is no one here that can say different. I mean if I said I was planning to over throw blank king and I had the support of enough nobles to do so. Who ever character that is going to look a lot harder on finding the traitors in game then if I said nothing on the forum.
Yes that is true, and it annoys the hell out of me as a player and a roleplayer. And yet I have been told quite eloquently to just 'deal with it and shut up already' when I mentioned OOC being used. This is why anything I say on IRC is mostly crap talking out my arse, why? Because if that player then uses that OOC knowledge ingame, he gains no advantage and looks very foolish and looks like a liar. Its also why I, and other roleplayers, are being forced to limit our roleplays and what we "think" in them because there are people out there who will take it and use it, even if its clear that it shouldnt be used. Unfortunately it appears to be a fact of Battlemaster.
And now on to your other post:
Aurvandil win in the civil war with Madina was pretty much won because Aurvandil has a clan in it and Madina does not. The whole claned moved to Aurvandil regions and took the noble count way over what most realms have. Aurvandil has double the amount of nobles as any other realm. If there was not a clan this would not have happened. This makes the game unfair for the rest of the realms. They have no chance of gaining this many nobles especially on dwilight where it is one character per account and that is a lot of realm to chose from.
And? By that standard if I then recruited say 5 friends and they all chose to join Pian en Luries it would be unfair and we would be clanning. Sorry but unless you want to get Tom to start dictating to us exactly where we may have characters in what realms, then you will just have to deal with it and try to make your realm look more nice. Heck if I was going to make a new character when the civil war started, I would have chosen Aurvandil, it looks like a nice realm to play in from what I have seen of it, I like their government type and I can already see a character and his backstory for joining that realm. Then I look at Madina... sorry but I hear its worse that the Luria's for backstabbing and politicing. Do not like their government system either. I have a character in mind though - wouldnt like to play it however. And it certainly is not as fleshed out as the one I had in mind for Aurvandil. Then I look at the Moot realms, interesting but mostly seems peaceful and inactive, heck D'hara just looks boring with its fight for food. Look at the SA realms, check out SA itself, now I can see a good character for it, but SA is already developed and the realms seem quite stable and old save for that new one. Doesnt feel like I will have much to do in it, or chance to advance...maybe. Lurias/Fissoa... already experienced, could do it again - already have a completely different character in mind for it.
So then, out of those choices I would rank them thus for appeal-ability:
Lurias/Fissoa
Aurvandil
SA
Moot
Madina
D'hara
Now I want to try something new so drop Lurias/Fissoa... oh look Aurvandil.
Just because you think its obviously a clan because no one could possibly want to be there, doesnt make you right. If it was not for the fact that your war was now coming to an end, I would most likely have my next toon in Aurvandil.
----------------------
Any time you ask someone to log in at a specific time (one hour before turn, 3PM GMT, etc.) it is a violation of the IRs, regardless of the communications channel used.
Agreed, what if however they were all simply logging in at that time because thats the timezone they were in/all got home etc etc etc etc?
-
So basically if a group of friends play together but follow the IR and remains inclusive, then that is all right.
However, if a group of friends asks their friends to log in at a certain time by OOG means, then it's not legit.
It seems to me the IR are truly well written from that point of view....
There may not ever have been a specific request, instruction, or even suggestion to log in at a certain time. It may simply be that they know that gives them an advantage, so they all tacitly agree to do so.
And even if there was some kind of explicit coordination outside the game to log on at certain times, there's nothing we can do about that. For one thing, we can't find out about it unless they talk about it in-game.
For another, they'd have to actually report it. And why would they? All that's happening is they're mutually agreeing to log on at a certain time, which gives all of them an advantage. Who's getting hurt by it? No one who matters, certainly.
Just the enemy.
-
Agreed, what if however they were all simply logging in at that time because thats the timezone they were in/all got home etc etc etc etc?
Oh, I agree. The specific time zone that people live in can definitely cause play patterns that look to other people like exploits.
During the fourth invasion, for example, the GM playing the monster realm was accused of late-turn-moving on purpose to gain advantages. That's rubbish. I know that the GM playing the monsters lived in a particular time zone that meant that for one turn, his regular playing time meant that for one of the two turns he played his characters closer to the turn change. To do otherwise would have required him to change around his life and sleep times.
-
There may not ever have been a specific request, instruction, or even suggestion to log in at a certain time. It may simply be that they know that gives them an advantage, so they all tacitly agree to do so.
And even if there was some kind of explicit coordination outside the game to log on at certain times, there's nothing we can do about that. For one thing, we can't find out about it unless they talk about it in-game.
For another, they'd have to actually report it. And why would they? All that's happening is they're mutually agreeing to log on at a certain time, which gives all of them an advantage. Who's getting hurt by it? No one who matters, certainly.
Just the enemy.
And if we observe that this is, in fact, happening; that realms are displaying disproportionately high time-coordination, even aside from time zona considerations; if they are acting with coordination in excess of that which would seem to follow from the messages they send IG.... I'd call that evidence of OOG clanning. I do not believe OOG planning can be inclusive, personally. I just don't think it's possible. Moving OOG is costly: note how few players get on IRC. It creates a powerful clique that finds it worthwhile to pay that cost, and a less powerful group that is unable or doesn't find it worthwhile.
But that's just my perspective. I would say that we might not be able to perfectly prove it, but we don't need to perfectly prove it. We need to observe that they're messing up the game for players; not behaving as if they are playing with and against friends. If a new noble couldn't plop down in their realm and gain access to things that can be reasonably expected for a competent nobles (army membership, oath, chance to hear about some realm politics/issues, opportunity to seek positions), looks like its exclusive to me. If the standard for competence is suspiciously high ("He won't make a good Marshal; he doesn't always make his moves less than 2 hours before the turn change"), again, I'd say that's enough to make a response.
I don't think this is really that hard to police. Between family histories, message volume, movement patterns, and gold transfers, I feel pretty convinced someone with database access (Tom) can identify a clan with an entirely adequate degree of precision, provided the time to sort the data is available.
-
More to the point, I dare someone to come up with a practical, simple suggestion for how to prevent 'clanning' that isn't nightmarishly difficult to enforce. Heck, I dare someone to come up with a definition of 'clanning' in the negative sense that's shorter than a paragraph and more specific than 'I'll know it when I see it'.
-
More to the point, I dare someone to come up with a practical, simple suggestion for how to prevent 'clanning' that isn't nightmarishly difficult to enforce. Heck, I dare someone to come up with a definition of 'clanning' in the negative sense that's shorter than a paragraph and more specific than 'I'll know it when I see it'.
Exclusive on unreasonable grounds, co-ordinated without in-character messages being sent. ?
-
Exclusive on unreasonable grounds, co-ordinated without in-character messages being sent. ?
Nice try. Now define 'unreasonable' ;)
-
Nice try. Now define 'unreasonable' ;)
When it doesnt make sense in character. I guess? :S
-
Any time you ask someone to log in at a specific time (one hour before turn, 3PM GMT, etc.) it is a violation of the IRs, regardless of the communications channel used.
What? Since when? It's only a violation if you punish or threaten to punish someone for it. If you said, "Hey, can you log on an hour before turn?" and when they say, "No," you say, "Oh, okay then", I'm pretty sure that's not a violation.
-
No punishment or threat, explicit or implied, is required in order to make something an IR violation. Nor does it take an order to violate the IRs. This holds true for all of the IRs.
f.ex.: "Please don't go to the tournament" is as much of an IR violation as "If you go to the tournament I'll ban your ass so fast you won't catch up to it until next month!" Now, the extent of punishment in each case may vary, of course. But they are both against the rules.
-
f.ex.: "Please don't go to the tournament" is as much of an IR violation as "If you go to the tournament I'll ban your ass so fast you won't catch up to it until next month!" Now, the extent of punishment in each case may vary, of course. But they are both against the rules.
And what does the former give in terms of punishment then? I mean it really does seem fully harmless...
-
And what does the former give in terms of punishment then? I mean it really does seem fully harmless...
The punishment is that the person doing the asking knows you don't toe the party line. You won't get Lordships, you won't get support for running for realm positions, you won't get extra money and patronage.
None of this has to be explicit. It happens all the same.
-
Titans have options to give private warnings, public reprimands, position removals, one-day, and three-day account locks. (Magistrates are the same, I believe.) Anything more serious, like lightning bolts, lightning storms, and permanent locks require Tom's personal intervention.
I don't think that you will get any kind of "If you do this, then you will get this" kind of example. Tom is not very keen on giving examples for hypothetical situations, the Titans and Magistrates do not address hypotheticals either, and I'm fairly certain that most of the dev team follows that example.
But, really, this thread has kind of been derailed. If you really want to discuss the IRs, then you could start something on the General Discussion board (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/board,1.0.html), or over in the Q&A sub-forum (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/board,36.0.html) in the Courthouse.
-
What? Since when? It's only a violation if you punish or threaten to punish someone for it. If you said, "Hey, can you log on an hour before turn?" and when they say, "No," you say, "Oh, okay then", I'm pretty sure that's not a violation.
Since forever.
Titans have options to give private warnings, public reprimands, position removals, one-day, and three-day account locks. (Magistrates are the same, I believe.) Anything more serious, like lightning bolts, lightning storms, and permanent locks require Tom's personal intervention.
I don't think that you will get any kind of "If you do this, then you will get this" kind of example. Tom is not very keen on giving examples for hypothetical situations, the Titans and Magistrates do not address hypotheticals either, and I'm fairly certain that most of the dev team follows that example.
But, really, this thread has kind of been derailed. If you really want to discuss the IRs, then you could start something on the General Discussion board (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/board,1.0.html), or over in the Q&A sub-forum (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/board,36.0.html) in the Courthouse.
Very good point.
So.... Aurvandil... their army didn't get smaller... it made another stratospheric leap...
Meanwhile, Terran and Asylon are also making a steady climb upwards...
Bring it, Kabrinskia!
-
Since forever.
Very good point.
So.... Aurvandil... their army didn't get smaller... it made another stratospheric leap...
Meanwhile, Terran and Asylon are also making a steady climb upwards...
Bring it, Kabrinskia!
Yes their army jumped. I am assuming they got the same wacky taxes we all did, and given that they are probably the most efficient realm at the moment in converting gold to CS is it a surprised that with such large taxes their CS would jump? They are also bringing more regions into the realm = more gold to play with. Hell Solaria would have had a massive CS jump but for two things
1) Most of us still haven't actually gone to refit
2) We don't have the RC's. Aurvandil however does, their whole military infrastructure is set up to ensure they can recruit large amounts of troops fast, they also appear to draft quite efficiently.
-
Yes their army jumped. I am assuming they got the same wacky taxes we all did, and given that they are probably the most efficient realm at the moment in converting gold to CS is it a surprised that with such large taxes their CS would jump? They are also bringing more regions into the realm = more gold to play with. Hell Solaria would have had a massive CS jump but for two things
1) Most of us still haven't actually gone to refit
2) We don't have the RC's. Aurvandil however does, their whole military infrastructure is set up to ensure they can recruit large amounts of troops fast, they also appear to draft quite efficiently.
Our morale in some regions is horribly low, though.
-
Aurvandil win in the civil war with Madina was pretty much won because Aurvandil has a clan in it and Madina does not. The whole claned moved to Aurvandil regions and took the noble count way over what most realms have. Aurvandil has double the amount of nobles as any other realm. If there was not a clan this would not have happened. This makes the game unfair for the rest of the realms. They have no chance of gaining this many nobles especially on dwilight where it is one character per account and that is a lot of realm to chose from.
There are many, many reasons Madina didn't win. Don't blame it on claning.
Example 1: if you hadn't continuously pissed off the 'moot for all these realms, maybe you'd have managed to convince them that Aurvandil was a threat that should be dealt with before it gets out of control. Aurvandil never really tried to improve relations with us much, you would have had a hell of an advantage with your numerous attempts if you hadn't been so arrogant, aggressive, condescending, and egoistical up to the very moment you realized this was not gonna be good for you.
A lot of the reasons Madina lost is of its own doing, not Aurvandil's.
-
All those political reasons are good IC, but that doesn't change the fact it's unusual for any realm to have such excellent coordination between so many nobles.
-
All those political reasons are good IC, but that doesn't change the fact it's unusual for any realm to have such excellent coordination between so many nobles.
I seem to recall that the relevant people knew about this and were looking into it. Might be best to just see if anything comes of it.
-
There are many, many reasons Madina didn't win. Don't blame it on claning.
Example 1: if you hadn't continuously pissed off the 'moot for all these realms, maybe you'd have managed to convince them that Aurvandil was a threat that should be dealt with before it gets out of control. Aurvandil never really tried to improve relations with us much, you would have had a hell of an advantage with your numerous attempts if you hadn't been so arrogant, aggressive, condescending, and egoistical up to the very moment you realized this was not gonna be good for you.
A lot of the reasons Madina lost is of its own doing, not Aurvandil's.
This.
There were many powerful people in the Moot who would have leapt at a chance to drop 10,000 CS of troops on Aurvandil's unprotected ass. But Madina didn't even make a real effort to reach out to the Moot. By the time they did, it was too late, and Aurvandil was buddy-buddy with Barca.
Aurvandil was not always as strong as it now is. It was able to get this strong because of Madina's IC dysfunctional political system that hopelessly mangled the possibility of strategically meaningful foreign support.
-
This.
There were many powerful people in the Moot who would have leapt at a chance to drop 10,000 CS of troops on Aurvandil's unprotected ass. But Madina didn't even make a real effort to reach out to the Moot. By the time they did, it was too late, and Aurvandil was buddy-buddy with Barca.
Aurvandil was not always as strong as it now is. It was able to get this strong because of Madina's IC dysfunctional political system that hopelessly mangled the possibility of strategically meaningful foreign support.
Indeed, it would have been very easy for us to defeat Aurvandil at the beginning. They had serious food/production problems, and could not leave their capital in any significant way without Madina taking back the city.
Up until the tower was attacked, the 'moot could have entered the war to win it for Madina. Auvandil couldn't both attack on any front and defend their city at the same time.
But Madina never really bothered to try to get our support. It's not like D'Hara is all that hard to woo: just offer a bunch of food at discount prices. But instead, they maintained their arrogant attitude and demanded the highest prices on the continent all along, and stopped trading with D'Hara.
It should also be mentioned that Madina declared the total war on Aurvandil, and up until it started becoming obvious that they wouldn't win they kept repeating how they would destroy Aurvandil and execute its rulers and all that.
On a last note, it seems that Madinian defection, both of nobles and lords, was rather high.
Overall, Aurvandil did pretty amazing, but Madina did everything wrong.
-
Not a realm that inspired much love from its nobles, apparently.
-
Some realms are better off dead.
-
Precisely because Aurvandil was not a threat before they didn't seek help. After all, why dividing the spoils, or getting indebted over something you can do yourself? They were simply confident they could win all along, right until the Tower was breached.
-
So, one week (and 6 pages) ago I started my investment experiment, costing my family 210 gold. The advisers had expected a 190 gold return. Here are the results:
Stats Prior to Investment:
Region Tax Report (8 hours, 12 minutes ago)
message to the lord and knights of Nifelhold
The following taxes were collected in Nifelhold. The tax rate for this collection was 14 % and the lords share was 10 %.
Regional income and expenses
Peasants Taxes 246 gold
Taxes from Guildhouses + 1 gold
Buildings Upkeep - 10 gold
Militia Payment - 46 gold
Collectable Tax Gold 191 gold
Estate of Size Peasants Tax Collected Knight Share Lord Share
Walter 40 % 2520 76 gold 68 gold 8 gold
Rohk 36 % 2268 68 gold 68 gold
Wild Lands 24 % 1512 22 gold 22 gold
Region Totals 166 gold 68 gold 98 gold
Stats After Investment
Region Tax Report (6 hours, 51 minutes ago)
message to the lord and knights of Nifelhold
The following taxes were collected in Nifelhold. The tax rate for this collection was 14 % and the lords share was 10 %.
Regional income and expenses
Peasants Taxes 458 gold
Taxes from Guildhouses + 5 gold
Buildings Upkeep - 10 gold
Militia Payment - 45 gold
Collectable Tax Gold 408 gold
Estate of Size Peasants Tax Collected Knight Share Lord Share
Walter 40 % 2520 163 gold 146 gold 17 gold
Rohk 36 % 2268 146 gold 146 gold
Wild Lands 24 % 1512 48 gold 48 gold
Region Totals 357 gold 146 gold 211 gold
Results
Personal Income: +113 gold
Knight's Income: + 78 gold
Total Return: +191 gold
Conclusion
1) Advisers do take into account your current tax rate when deciding the return on your family investment.
2) Family investments are not a lucrative use of family gold. I would likely be more efficient to ask my family for gold on a weekly basis and then bank it or place it in a guild. I effectively lost 20 gold through this transaction.
-
It would have been a lot more profitable if it hadn't of been for your 24% wild land. Since wild lands only collect at half efficiency, that's effectively 12% of your regional income being wasted. The raw "collectible tax gold" shows that you should have done better than break even: 408 - 191 = 217. Take out the 5 gold difference from militia and guild taxes, and you have an effective return of 212 gold. Two more than your initial investment. The inefficiency of the Wild Lands is what turned your investment from a "break even" into a loss.
Investing does, however, make a profit for the character. It's gold that the character/realm did not have before, but now it does. Investing really is not a way to actually make a profit for your character or family. It's a way to funnel gold from one realm, through your family, to a different realm.
But this is really a topic for a different thread. It's mostly OT in this one.
-
I would likely be more efficient to ask my family for gold on a weekly basis and then bank it or place it in a guild.
Except that you've not been able to do this by asking for family gold repeatedly for years now, and even visiting your family to do this has been prevented by code that checks to see how often you're trying to do it (especially without putting any money back...).
-
It would have been a lot more profitable if it hadn't of been for your 24% wild land. Since wild lands only collect at half efficiency, that's effectively 12% of your regional income being wasted. The raw "collectible tax gold" shows that you should have done better than break even: 408 - 191 = 217. Take out the 5 gold difference from militia and guild taxes, and you have an effective return of 212 gold. Two more than your initial investment. The inefficiency of the Wild Lands is what turned your investment from a "break even" into a loss.
Investing does, however, make a profit for the character. It's gold that the character/realm did not have before, but now it does. Investing really is not a way to actually make a profit for your character or family. It's a way to funnel gold from one realm, through your family, to a different realm.
But this is really a topic for a different thread. It's mostly OT in this one.
Also doesn't account for shift from <100% production of food to 100% production of food.
That's a negligible value if you're at 98% production or something, but if you're coming from 90% or 85%, it can be significant.
-
You have now invested 700 gold in this region, boosting production by 53 % to 152 %. Your advisors hope for a return of ca. 840 gold, if everything works well.
Sounds pretty nice to me...
-
You have now invested 700 gold in this region, boosting production by 53 % to 152 %. Your advisors hope for a return of ca. 840 gold, if everything works well.
Sounds pretty nice to me...
Yes, family investment is a great tool to boost the production of a depressed region. You can use it to bounce back after an episode of looting for example. However, if your production had been closer to 100% in the first place, you would not have gotten much more than a break-even.
-
Yes, family investment is a great tool to boost the production of a depressed region. You can use it to bounce back after an episode of looting for example. However, if your production had been closer to 100% in the first place, you would not have gotten much more than a break-even.
Read it again, you can deduce that production was at 99%.
-
boosting production by 53 % to 152 %.
Sorry, I read from instead of by. My fault.
-
Yes, family investment is a great tool to boost the production of a depressed region. You can use it to bounce back after an episode of looting for example. However, if your production had been closer to 100% in the first place, you would not have gotten much more than a break-even.
The more germaine difference is the size of the investment.
I bet that investment was in a city. City investments maybe have a different payoff level than others?
-
The investment was done in a Stronghold. Nifelhold is the stronghold between Springdale and Nifelheim.
-
The investment was done in a Stronghold. Nifelhold is the stronghold between Springdale and Nifelheim.
Darksun's 210 gold investment was in Nifelhold. JPierreD's 700 gold investment was somewhere else, probably a city.
-
Darksun's 210 gold investment was in Nifelhold. JPierreD's 700 gold investment was somewhere else, probably a city.
Giask, yes, a city.
-
Sasrhas, on FEI, has a 290 investment and ca. 360 return. I haven't looked into the actual return, but it highly depends on the tax rate. Mine being 23% I would think I gain gold rather those lose, then again I haven't taken the time to truly figure out the numbers.
-
Sasrhas, on FEI, has a 290 investment and ca. 360 return. I haven't looked into the actual return, but it highly depends on the tax rate. Mine being 23% I would think I gain gold rather those lose, then again I haven't taken the time to truly figure out the numbers.
Again, a positive return in a city.
I just invested in Chesney:
You have now invested 370 gold in this region, boosting production by 69 % to 169 %. Your advisors hope for a return of ca. 420 gold, if everything works well.
Positive returns in a city.
Looks pretty consistent to me. Investments yield positive returns in cities; might not elsewhere.
-
What tax rates are you running in the cities? According to the game, 14% is high. I would have thought that 23% would get you tossed out right away.
Also, remember that Aurvandil (until recently) only had one city.
-
The capital of a small realm, with the support of the Lord or a good Courtier can often have 20%+ tax rates.
-
I'm obviously playing this wrong then :)
-
What tax rates are you running in the cities? According to the game, 14% is high. I would have thought that 23% would get you tossed out right away.
We have one courtier and 4 knight plus my estate in the city which boosts both Authoirty and Production to 250%+. 4 days until my next tax: tax income 23 % 1361 gold
-
I've been running 25% tax rate in Golden Farrow for a couple weeks now...
With an investment, currently 108% production, I am projected to bring in 3200 gold. 1914 gold to me and 1286 to my 4 knights.
-
What tax rates are you running in the cities? According to the game, 14% is high. I would have thought that 23% would get you tossed out right away.
I ran Askileon at 19% with Koli only working on it, and I've seen regions run at 25% with lord in residence and proper buro support (I say buro because this was before the new class system).
-
Again, a positive return in a city.
I just invested in Chesney:
You have now invested 370 gold in this region, boosting production by 69 % to 169 %. Your advisors hope for a return of ca. 420 gold, if everything works well.
Positive returns in a city.
Looks pretty consistent to me. Investments yield positive returns in cities; might not elsewhere.
I invest consistently in cities, consistently at a loss. Perhaps that's because I invest at 100% production.
-
I invest consistently in cities, consistently at a loss. Perhaps that's because I invest at 100% production.
My investment in Giask was made at 99% production. And the expected gain is high.
-
I invest consistently in cities, consistently at a loss. Perhaps that's because I invest at 100% production.
Very strange.
Maybe Tom has already coded in a diminishing return? Maybe frequency of investment diminishes returns?
Or maybe it's not about production, but about population? Are the cities where you invest at full population?
Is the tax rate atypical?
Is there a very large militia presence?
Has it suffered any anomalies in the past week that could cause the game to make erroneous predictions if those predictions were made on the previous week's info?
I've personally never made an investment with negative returns that I can remember.
-
Very strange.
Maybe Tom has already coded in a diminishing return? Maybe frequency of investment diminishes returns?
Or maybe it's not about production, but about population? Are the cities where you invest at full population?
Is the tax rate atypical?
Is there a very large militia presence?
Has it suffered any anomalies in the past week that could cause the game to make erroneous predictions if those predictions were made on the previous week's info?
I've personally never made an investment with negative returns that I can remember.
Yes very interesting, in my experience cities generally provide positive returns as well. Other regions are a bit more varied but cities generally provide good returns.
-
I believe it is part of the system that constant investments don't pay off.
-
Very strange.
Maybe Tom has already coded in a diminishing return? Maybe frequency of investment diminishes returns?
Or maybe it's not about production, but about population? Are the cities where you invest at full population?
Is the tax rate atypical?
Is there a very large militia presence?
Has it suffered any anomalies in the past week that could cause the game to make erroneous predictions if those predictions were made on the previous week's info?
I've personally never made an investment with negative returns that I can remember.
My investments are not THAT frequent. Not every week, but maybe every 2-4 weeks on BT.
Typically very little militia, full population, above-average tax rates.
I'm not in Fheuvenem to do another test, though, and I don't want to invest in Paisly with that 50% vacant estates and 25% wildlands... that would seem rather pointless, with that awful tax efficiency.
-
Very strange.
Maybe Tom has already coded in a diminishing return? Maybe frequency of investment diminishes returns?
Or maybe it's not about production, but about population? Are the cities where you invest at full population?
Is the tax rate atypical?
Is there a very large militia presence?
Has it suffered any anomalies in the past week that could cause the game to make erroneous predictions if those predictions were made on the previous week's info?
I've personally never made an investment with negative returns that I can remember.
Or maybe...the estimate given when you make the investment isn't a perfect one, but rather a guesstimate based on current conditions and a basic knowledge of how production changes over time in some particular version of normal conditions.
There are many, many factors that could make the return estimate more or less than what you actually get back.
-
Or maybe...the estimate given when you make the investment isn't a perfect one, but rather a guesstimate based on current conditions and a basic knowledge of how production changes over time in some particular version of normal conditions.
There are many, many factors that could make the return estimate more or less than what you actually get back.
Very possible.
But the two people who have posted on here with detailed analysis of returns evinced very accurate estimations by the game. So maybe those were flukes, not a huge sample size, but I'm inclined to think the estimate can at least be trust to get the sign of the returns correct, if maybe not the exact amount.
-
But the two people who have posted on here with detailed analysis of returns evinced very accurate estimations by the game. So maybe those were flukes, not a huge sample size, but I'm inclined to think the estimate can at least be trust to get the sign of the returns correct, if maybe not the exact amount.
The estimate is very good if conditions in the region don't change much. Most people understand the warning it gives and invest in regions away from battles, etc. - i.e. in stable regions. Which means the estimate will be very near.
-
The estimate is very good if conditions in the region don't change much. Most people understand the warning it gives and invest in regions away from battles, etc. - i.e. in stable regions. Which means the estimate will be very near.
Yeah, that's more-or-less what I expected.
-
To sum it up, yes you get a higher return profit by investing below 100% production.
You have now invested 290 gold in this region, boosting production by 80 % to 168 %. Your advisors hope for a return of ca. 390 gold, if everything works well.
To ensure that your investment pays off, you should try to keep morale and realm control high and prevent enemies from looting. With its boosted production, Sasrhas is sure to be a prime target.
Your continual performances have finally paid off. Your prestige rises one point.
-
Interesting... would not have expected that.
Some of that positive return may be due to the urban effect we noted earlier, but that does seem an unusually high return.
-
I skip to the last few pages expecting epic discussions on Aurvandilian might, instead, I get boring discussions on the viability of investments.
I am disappoint.
-
Well from what I have read part of aurvandil's success is that it has done lots of investments to increase economy I beleive for it to pay for troops, rcs, and fortifications.
-
Here is the horrible truth: Economics win wars, not heroics on the battlefield. This is even true in BattleMaster. No realm ever surrendered because the enemy was simply too awesome during that last battle. They surrendered because they could not field another army afterward.
-
Hehehe, too true, too true.
-
Politic, Economy, and Military. Can't separate those three.
-
No realm ever surrendered because the enemy was simply too awesome during that last battle.
Hah, but it would be very cool.
-
Aurvandil update? We're in Madina City looting it to the ground. The walls are at 62% (Palisade) and we've looted all their tax gold/food. Madina is surely done and something new will rise from their land :)
-
Hmm, so much easier to get gold from looting. :P
-
Hmm, so much easier to get gold from looting. :P
Indeed, I got more gold from looting than my tax share in Candiels 8) Madina would have had a better chance against us if they had made their last stand in the city rather than Madina Gardens. We had nearly twice their forces and they chose the Palisade versus the Fortress they had right behind them.
-
Indeed, I got more gold from looting than my tax share in Candiels 8) Madina would have had a better chance against us if they had made their last stand in the city rather than Madina Gardens. We had nearly twice their forces and they chose the Palisade versus the Fortress they had right behind them.
Probably wanted to protect their food supply or something...of course, I would be happy to sell them food...at 60 gold per 100 bushels. Fair's fair.
-
It is really hard to have any sympathy for Madina.
-
I find it hard to have sympathy for either side...
-
I find it hard to have sympathy for either side...
True, but Aurvrandil doesn't need sympathy, or anything else.
-
Here is the horrible truth: Economics win wars, not heroics on the battlefield. This is even true in BattleMaster. No realm ever surrendered because the enemy was simply too awesome during that last battle. They surrendered because they could not field another army afterward.
Unsolicited advice: the sooner realms start giving duchies to players that enjoy the economic game, the sooner they can free up the battle-types to spend all of that surplus gold on ass whippings. Reward players appropriately. Don't make the girl or guy who is always running around with a 1K CS unit a duchess or duke, because to be an effective one usually requires that they stay in their duchy. Same goes for Bankers, Judges and any other position. Give them out to the people who actually want to assume the responsibilities. Often, they're doled out as rewards with no regard for what's expected of the roles.
-
Unsolicited advice: the sooner realms start giving duchies to players that enjoy the economic game, the sooner they can free up the battle-types to spend all of that surplus gold on ass whippings. Reward players appropriately. Don't make the girl or guy who is always running around with a 1K CS unit a duchess or duke, because to be an effective one usually requires that they stay in their duchy. Same goes for Bankers, Judges and any other position. Give them out to the people who actually want to assume the responsibilities. Often, they're doled out as rewards with no regard for what's expected of the roles.
But, but, the less functional my realm is the more powerful I am...
-
But, but, the less functional my realm is the more powerful I am...
Is that you, C'Thonia?
-
Often, they're doled out as rewards with no regard for what's expected of the roles.
Welcome to the Middle Ages. Please enjoy your stay.
-
But, but, the less functional my realm is the more powerful I am...
Until a functional realm whoops your arse.
-
Unsolicited advice: the sooner realms start giving duchies to players that enjoy the economic game, the sooner they can free up the battle-types to spend all of that surplus gold on ass whippings. Reward players appropriately. Don't make the girl or guy who is always running around with a 1K CS unit a duchess or duke, because to be an effective one usually requires that they stay in their duchy. Same goes for Bankers, Judges and any other position. Give them out to the people who actually want to assume the responsibilities. Often, they're doled out as rewards with no regard for what's expected of the roles.
"Don't give them to the active people, give them to the people who are lazy and never do anything anyways!" That's what I read with "Don't make the girl or guy who is always running around with a 1K CS unit a duchess or duke, because to be an effective one usually requires that they stay in their duchy."
As for giving them to people who want to actually assume the responsibilities, that's tricky... The amount people want a position is not always proportional to the amount they want to assume the position's responsibilities. Distinguishing these two can be tricky.
-
Until a functional realm whoops your arse.
Positive and negative aspects to everything. Plus, I haven't really even lost that much power by leaving, in my recent instance.
"Don't give them to the active people, give them to the people who are lazy and never do anything anyways!" That's what I read with "Don't make the girl or guy who is always running around with a 1K CS unit a duchess or duke, because to be an effective one usually requires that they stay in their duchy."
As for giving them to people who want to actually assume the responsibilities, that's tricky... The amount people want a position is not always proportional to the amount they want to assume the position's responsibilities. Distinguishing these two can be tricky.
Well I think the main thing is there are many approaches to handing out these positions. Its very hard to distinguish who will spend the most time fulfilling a position's responsibilities. However, it is fairly simple to distinguish those who are more active and dedicate more time to helping their realm and realm-mates. You can give positions to them as rewards and most of the time they'll step up and fulfill them. So I'd give a position to an active person over a non-active one any day. Especially if you want to reward them and gain an in-game friend/power piece for the future.
-
Is nobody realizing how hilarious this discussion is?
Am I the only one laughing about the humor of suggesting a professionalized landed bureaucracy?
I mean, sure, it's more efficient. But really, how un-SMA can you get? Land and peasants exist to finance my horse, armor, and guards, damnit!
-
Is nobody realizing how hilarious this discussion is?
Am I the only one laughing about the humor of suggesting a professionalized landed bureaucracy?
I mean, sure, it's more efficient. But really, how un-SMA can you get? Land and peasants exist to finance my horse, armor, and guards, damnit!
In Solaria we just appoint the greedy. The theory is their greed will result in them maximizing the return on the land. Then it is just a matter of coming up with a way to part them from the gold. But no one is talking about PROFESSIONAL landed Bureaucracy. There were nobles that excelled in war, and their were nobles that excelled in managing land (or at least appointing stewards that were good at it and not interfering too much) Now since the game has a whole noble class dedicated to land management, it is not a stretch to assume that it is a VALID noble past time, so long as we aren't doing something disgusting like paying them a wage. Or do you want do declare Courtiers to be un-SMA and ban them from Terran?
-
In Solaria we just appoint the greedy. The theory is their greed will result in them maximizing the return on the land. Then it is just a matter of coming up with a way to part them from the gold. But no one is talking about PROFESSIONAL landed Bureaucracy. There were nobles that excelled in war, and their were nobles that excelled in managing land (or at least appointing stewards that were good at it and not interfering too much) Now since the game has a whole noble class dedicated to land management, it is not a stretch to assume that it is a VALID noble past time, so long as we aren't doing something disgusting like paying them a wage. Or do you want do declare Courtiers to be un-SMA and ban them from Terran?
Absolutely not, I wasn't suggesting that. I was laughing at:
Give them out to the people who actually want to assume the responsibilities. Often, they're doled out as rewards with no regard for what's expected of the roles.
Which is hilarious (as are discussions stemming from it).... because positions being doled out as rewards.... is exactly what they actually were.
-
Absolutely not, I wasn't suggesting that. I was laughing at:
Which is hilarious (as are discussions stemming from it).... because positions being doled out as rewards.... is exactly what they actually were.
Yes and no. Certainly they were often handed out as rewards, though by no means was this 100% of the cases. There were also handed out as bribes, either to gain someones support or because the ruler couldn't risk insulting a certain faction. Even when handed out as rewards it is important to look at what they were rewarding. If a realm was to give them out to those that want to and have proven capable of performing the required duties, isn't that in itself rewarding their previous efforts for the realm? Just like medieval times the Ruler and Realms in BM are dependent on the region lords and Dukes performing well. While some rulers may have been foolish enough to hand out rich and important lands without though as to the continued maintenance of that land, certainly not every ruler was so stupid.
-
Yes and no. Certainly they were often handed out as rewards, though by no means was this 100% of the cases. There were also handed out as bribes, either to gain someones support or because the ruler couldn't risk insulting a certain faction. Even when handed out as rewards it is important to look at what they were rewarding. If a realm was to give them out to those that want to and have proven capable of performing the required duties, isn't that in itself rewarding their previous efforts for the realm? Just like medieval times the Ruler and Realms in BM are dependent on the region lords and Dukes performing well. While some rulers may have been foolish enough to hand out rich and important lands without though as to the continued maintenance of that land, certainly not every ruler was so stupid.
The idea of efficient feudal management would be a novel one. I have never read anywhere an idea that dispensers of titles gave any particular thought to a potential lord's capabilities as a financial manager, labor organizer, or agricultural planner. It's generally more about his ability to command political and military support.
-
The idea of efficient feudal management would be a novel one. I have never read anywhere an idea that dispensers of titles gave any particular thought to a potential lord's capabilities as a financial manager, labor organizer, or agricultural planner. It's generally more about his ability to command political and military support.
Yes, but to provide military support, and in some cases political support one would require the funds from their land. No good being the best military leader if you can't also support a decent levy of knights and men at arms to actually lead. Thus to ensure that they were getting the best military support possible you had to consider the ability of the Lord to ensure the lands granted to them continued to produce the wealth required. This is exactly what Solari is advocating, military support is maximized when the regions, especially towns lands and cities are well looked after by their Lord.
-
Yes, but to provide military support, and in some cases political support one would require the funds from their land. No good being the best military leader if you can't also support a decent levy of knights and men at arms to actually lead. Thus to ensure that they were getting the best military support possible you had to consider the ability of the Lord to ensure the lands granted to them continued to produce the wealth required. This is exactly what Solari is advocating, military support is maximized when the regions, especially towns lands and cities are well looked after by their Lord.
But seriously, do you think that, say, when the Franks sat around in recently conquered lands, they looked around and went, "Now, Joe over there is the best fighter, but not too great at counting sheep, so we'll give him a small estate, and just tell Bob, who is a good farmer and thus going to get a big plot of land, to give Joe some of his excess money." Really? I find that implausible.
Obviously, yeah, a catastrophically horrible land-manager might not be preferred (though I can think of plenty of cases where it wouldn't be crippling: I'm thinking of the Mayor of the Palace phenomenon in the late-Merovingian period particularly), but I think intentionally shifting your dukes out of combat roles...
Well, I dunno, there might be some kind of precedent, I feel like, somewhere in 1300's Italian states, maybe some German ones... but broadly it just seems very strange to me.
-
But seriously, do you think that, say, when the Franks sat around in recently conquered lands, they looked around and went, "Now, Joe over there is the best fighter, but not too great at counting sheep, so we'll give him a small estate, and just tell Bob, who is a good farmer and thus going to get a big plot of land, to give Joe some of his excess money." Really? I find that implausible.
Obviously, yeah, a catastrophically horrible land-manager might not be preferred (though I can think of plenty of cases where it wouldn't be crippling: I'm thinking of the Mayor of the Palace phenomenon in the late-Merovingian period particularly), but I think intentionally shifting your dukes out of combat roles...
Well, I dunno, there might be some kind of precedent, I feel like, somewhere in 1300's Italian states, maybe some German ones... but broadly it just seems very strange to me.
Yes I think such things did happen. Medieval doesn't equal stupid. There were certainly nobles that understood the value of well run estates. Really the idea of foolish nobles that squandered their holdings wealth is far more common in later ages. Powerful figures like Dukes did not need to take the field, ever. That isn't to say they never took the field. Their value wasn't necessarily in their own fighting skill, but in the men they provided to the armies. They could just as easily send a senior knight to command their levies as they could themselves.
-
You have to remember that people were not appointed to positions in the middle ages: families were. Neither appointing a good warrior nor a good manager was any guarantee that their grandson would be as good.
However, if you appoint someone who commands the loyalty of thousands of men through feudal/clan ties, you have a pretty good chance that their grandson will command the same loyalty.
-
You have to remember that people were not appointed to positions in the middle ages: families were. Neither appointing a good warrior nor a good manager was any guarantee that their grandson would be as good.
However, if you appoint someone who commands the loyalty of thousands of men through feudal/clan ties, you have a pretty good chance that their grandson will command the same loyalty.
Half truth. SOME titles were hereditary, by no means all. Wise rulers always ensured they kept a good portion of the realm as non-hereditary grants to ensure they had lands for use as gifts, rewards, bribes what have you.
-
Half truth. SOME titles were hereditary, by no means all. Wise rulers always ensured they kept a good portion of the realm as non-hereditary grants to ensure they had lands for use as gifts, rewards, bribes what have you.
True. The Lord Lieutenant of Ireland comes to mind.
-
Also, it's not necessarily stupid to give titles away to lazy people. If your land is known for political turmoil, you might just was the lazy guy wielding all the power you don't wield yourself, to lower the chances of your appointee later using that power against you.
The economical performance of the realm can easily come second to just keeping power. Production isn't all that important when the threat comes from within.
-
Also, it's not necessarily stupid to give titles away to lazy people. If your land is known for political turmoil, you might just was the lazy guy wielding all the power you don't wield yourself, to lower the chances of your appointee later using that power against you.
The economical performance of the realm can easily come second to just keeping power. Production isn't all that important when the threat comes from within.
This was another thing I was thinking; effective land-management can create rivals. A wise and self-interested ruler might want to think twice before appointing a very effective, strong, possibly ambitious duke, unless there are existential threats from the outside.
-
It's understood in Solaria that the State is the person of Malus and the claims of House Solari. Regions are "administered" in a more eastern fashion. Like Byzantines, Seljuks, Mamluks, whatever. Tyranny wins again! Taxes are kept stupidly low (10% realm share, soon to be dropping to 5%), lords get rich, vassals almost never ask for gold, so nobody complains. So, I feel that folks are free to pursue their interests. It's really rather laissez-faire, which I hope translates into councilors that are lobbying for the roles because they've got some talent or interest in the area. It would not be the first time I've pursued a dead end.
-
Aurvandil's war machine is certainly effective.
Ironically, two of my nobles are in realms that just won two wars (Caligus(vs. Ibladesh), and the Caligan Empire(vs Carelia)) while my Dwilight character has been in two realms that lost wars (Caerwyn(vs SA) and Madina(vs Aurvandil)).
Sigh. Perhaps I should have Graviel throw himself off a cliff out of despair or something.
-
Sigh. Perhaps I should have Graviel throw himself off a cliff out of despair or something.
Don't do anything that extreme. Dial it back a notch. Just join SA and become Allison's lackey. Its almost as bad as suicide, but you get the joys of being a pawn.
-
This was another thing I was thinking; effective land-management can create rivals. A wise and self-interested ruler might want to think twice before appointing a very effective, strong, possibly ambitious duke, unless there are existential threats from the outside.
Now we are starting to touch the reality. Just like modern systems a Ruler needed to balance many factors. Ensuring he had the support of his nobles, keeping those that weren't all that happy with him from outright rebellion, ensuring he had the forces and support to face outside threats, all while ensuring he didn't create new threats within his own realm. He might be willing to grant Baron Von Management some more land due to his proven support in military matters and competence in providing wealth from the lands, but at some point he will start having to be concerned about just how much land and power the noble holds, or be concerned about just how friendly he is with with a group of nobles known to be discontented with the current system or what have you.
The granting of lands and titles wasn't some simple thing with a one size fits all policy. So much would depend on the competence of the ruler, the domestic conditions, foreign conditions even cultural expectations. A competent ruler would balance all of these things while pursuing his own goals, and land and titles is but one tool to cover many aspects of ruling.
-
Now we are starting to touch the reality. Just like modern systems a Ruler needed to balance many factors. Ensuring he had the support of his nobles, keeping those that weren't all that happy with him from outright rebellion, ensuring he had the forces and support to face outside threats, all while ensuring he didn't create new threats within his own realm. He might be willing to grant Baron Von Management some more land due to his proven support in military matters and competence in providing wealth from the lands, but at some point he will start having to be concerned about just how much land and power the noble holds, or be concerned about just how friendly he is with with a group of nobles known to be discontented with the current system or what have you.
The granting of lands and titles wasn't some simple thing with a one size fits all policy. So much would depend on the competence of the ruler, the domestic conditions, foreign conditions even cultural expectations. A competent ruler would balance all of these things while pursuing his own goals, and land and titles is but one tool to cover many aspects of ruling.
Yes, this is definitely it. Alanna pulled this off to a very good degree while she held power in PeL. She even gave Brom a Duchy hoping to appease him, while knowing he was a rival at the time. Even better, (although less real life backing) she gave him a Ducal seat to remove him from his position as Judge. So, giving lands can work both ways.
-
Yes, this is definitely it. Alanna pulled this off to a very good degree while she held power in PeL. She even gave Brom a Duchy hoping to appease him, while knowing he was a rival at the time. Even better, (although less real life backing) she gave him a Ducal seat to remove him from his position as Judge. So, giving lands can work both ways.
That bit her several times, too. Duchies were power vehicles until the new estate system. Now you can reward ambitious rivals with a Margravate, and keep the appointment authority of the Duke with yourself or another. <3
-
That bit her several times, too. Duchies were power vehicles until the new estate system. Now you can reward ambitious rivals with a Margravate, and keep the appointment authority of the Duke with yourself or another. <3
But that's exactly why its a balancing act as a Ruler, and why its really an interesting dynamic.
Not to mention it was incredibly smart for her to get rid of me as her Judge, through a legitimate reason. At the time, I had too much support from the nobility.
-
De-Legro! Control these people! I want to read more epicness about Aurvandil rather than weird economy/medival history lectures on past realms and trying to learn from them. Aren't mistakes meant to teach you exactly how you can make them again? Otherwise it's like we're trying to do better than our predecessors, a feat well know to reduce player interaction to a maximum.
-
Wow... I should watch what I say before I kill more thread with my poorly timed and executed humour. :-[
-
:P
-
You're such a buzzkill...
-
My brain is still stuck on "reduce player interaction to a maximum", sorry. :P