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BattleMaster => Locals => Dwilight => Topic started by: Chenier on December 10, 2012, 04:24:35 PM
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Will it ever stop? I'm really getting sick of them. It totally kills the atmosphere.
Solaria after the Solari family, Kabrinskia after the Kabrinskia family, Provincia di Fiorenza and the duchy of "Florentine City-State of Paisly" after Florence Endellion (which, apparently, is illegal since one isn't supposed to name duchies after people, though go figure why this would only be a rule for duchies and not realms), and now the Farronite Repubic after the Farron family.
Is everyone so devoid of imagination? Does naming realms after people really ring "oh this is totally medieval" to anyone?
While it isn't against the rules, it should be made so. At least for Dwilight.
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Oh well, those realms never last long anyway.
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I thought it derived from Golden Farrow, their capital, not the Farron family.
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Now I know it for certain because Serpico Radnor Farron is a noble from Aurvandil with no ties to Sanguis Astroism or the Farronite Republic.
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Yes, it's coincidence for as far as I know. Though Serpico is quick to claim his throne :)
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Yep completely coincidence. Didn't even knew this guy existed.
and I always thought Provincia di Fiorenza was name after Assassin's Creed 2
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Yep completely coincidence. Didn't even knew this guy existed.
and I always thought Provincia di Fiorenza was name after Assassin's Creed 2
You mean the italian city state florence?
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Yes, it's coincidence for as far as I know. Though Serpico is quick to claim his throne :)
Ah, he fooled us well.
Perfectly legitimate name, then, in this case.
And nothing will convince me that the florentine city-state had nothing to do with the fact that the leader was named Florence.
My point stands for these other examples. Please make it a rule not to name realms after characters, it's really lame.
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You mean the italian city state florence?
That one two, but I believe the reference would go mostly because AC2
And cities named after a person were a common thing...just count how many Alexandria there was during Alexander's rule.
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Yeah, naming after a person is completely SMA.
And the Farronite Republic's name is just a coincidence.
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I dont see the problem of naming a realm after ones self, arrogant and egotistical as it is but really it doesnt harm anything.
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That one two, but I believe the reference would go mostly because AC2
And cities named after a person were a common thing...just count how many Alexandria there was during Alexander's rule.
A city isn't a duchy and much less a realm.
Sure, there may be a few RL examples, but these are small and marginal.
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So long as there *is* an example, does it matter how big or small it was?
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Tom's previously-stated rule is that you have to find two historical examples that fit from something approaching the right time period and locale. Alexander would, I think, be out of scope for Battlemaster. There are various examples (I, for instance, have a couple of instances where cities were razed and refounded as "[Egotistical Ruler's Name]'s Better than [previous city's name]" that I hope are close enough to scope to count, so I can't imagine that people naming vassal states or provinces or what not after people is impossible to find.
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Yeah, naming after a person is completely SMA.
But still illegal for duchies, at least if you name it after you - word of Tom.
Please do not rename at a whim, no "funny" names, no naming of duchies after their duke or such nonsense. In case of doubt, ask on the forum first. We don't want to have to restrict this feature further, ok?
(See this post to read the discussion: http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3306.msg77448.html#msg77448)
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But still illegal for duchies, at least if you name it after you - word of Tom.
(See this post to read the discussion: http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,3306.msg77448.html#msg77448)
Which is one more reason why it makes absolutely no sense for it to be allowed for realms, when it isn't even allowed for duchies.
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As a matter of fact, there are a few near examples and even one perfect hit in the real world:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_country-name_etymologies
Saudi-Arabia is named after the ruling dynasty, the Saud.
Nevertheless, this should not become common practice. As with all rules, there is probably a really good exception somewhere, but if you even have to think about it, then the particular case in question probably isn't it.
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Apparently our realm has the misfortune of having a name very similar to a temperature measurement... one that is named after a rl person. D:
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(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/Fahrenheit_small.jpg)
Well, if anything, he probably was saner than Allison :D.
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Apparently our realm has the misfortune of having a name very similar to a temperature measurement... one that is named after a rl person. D: very embarrassing typo in its name.
...ftfy
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...ftfy
+1
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Rome, Romania. Two very prominent examples. One named after Rome, which heralds to Romulus. If you follow the myth at all, that is.
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The fact the Provincia di Fiorenza, Fiorenza being an archaic Italian noun for Florence, was founded by a noble called Florence in her Florentine City-State is completely a coincidence, that aside it was also completely intentional and thus not a coincidence. I would at least like to think Provincia di Fiorenza, based of the former Italian Republic and City state and headed by a woman who shares it's name is a bit more tasteful than "Kabrinskia" and "Solaria". It's also something of an in game reference as I think the former Madinian's always equated themselves to the Republic of Venice, for some reason, and Mendicant promised Florence a Republic since he sort of... destroyed her Madinian Republic.
Besides, cool rulers don't name realms after themselves, that's just crass, they name entire continents after their majesty, such as Mendicant has done. It's not Dwilight, it's Anhangaphalia. It's not the Madinian Isles, its the Mendicontinent.
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It's not Dwilight, it's Anhangaphalia. It's not the Madinian Isles, its the Mendicontinent.
hahaha omg my day cant get any better
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Besides, cool rulers don't name realms after themselves, that's just crass, they name entire continents after their majesty, such as Mendicant has done. It's not Dwilight, it's Anhangaphalia. It's not the Madinian Isles, its the Mendicontinent.
You Orvandeux do really have a unique flare to your arrogance, I'll grant that.
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http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Aurvandil/Imperial_Cartographique_Institution
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You Orvandeux do really have a unique flare to your arrogance, I'll grant that.
What can I say? Mendicant's got swag.
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name very similar to a temperature measurement... D: very embarrassing typo in its name....ftfy
I was so focused on the Farronite part, I only just saw it.... wow.
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I'd hate to be the player of Khari right now. ^_^
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To be honest, it's better as Farronite Republic. Why? Farrow means a litter of pigs, Farron however in Gaelic means thunder/lightning (One of the two). Golden Farrow is just a golden litter of pigs taken literally. (A fitting equation for the Astroist's?).
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You're not seriously going to start playing the "real definition" card are you?
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LOL
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Wow.
I just noted the typo.
Wow.
Just... wow.
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You're not seriously going to start playing the "real definition" card are you?
I was more trying to excuse the typo, which I like on that basis. Better to be Farron than Farrow, and I don't just say that because one of my nobles has the family name Farron. (I'll be damned if Mendicant has to fight a war to put Farron on the Farronite Throne).
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That... uhm.. isn't the part with the typo... *coughs* look at the second word
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So THAT is the typo mentioned! Oops! Hopefully for the Republic someone will be so nice to change it, but a good lesson for future Realm creations: Triple-check the name :P
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You know, that's actually a pretty common typo for Republic. No idea why. Freudian, perhaps?
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http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Aurvandil/Imperial_Cartographique_Institution
This is literally one of the original causes of friction between the 'Moot and Aurvandil. Or, at least, it really pissed off Terran/'Moot leadership when it was discovered they were doing that.
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Really? Terran became upset over the fact that a different country used different names for the same geographical features? Why was that so offensive? Did they try and force Terran to use the same titles?
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Really? Terran became upset over the fact that a different country used different names for the same geographical features? Why was that so offensive? Did they try and force Terran to use the same titles?
No, because they started claiming some Barca lands in that cartography.
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And, from an OOC point of view, that's actually a great way to create the sort of friction wars thrive on in BM.
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And, from an OOC point of view, that's actually a great way to create the sort of friction wars thrive on in BM.
Sure, just don't act surprised if people are pissed off as a result.
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Really? Terran became upset over the fact that a different country used different names for the same geographical features? Why was that so offensive? Did they try and force Terran to use the same titles?
In RL, map designations have been cited in numerous international court cases as grounds for establishing claim. Map-drawing was intensely political in the Middle Ages as well.
Publication of geographic designations is INTENSELY political.
They specified part of Barca's lands as part of "Mendicontinent." Them's fightin' words.
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Oh, well that makes more sense, I was under the impression the Moot just decided to have a grudge for a grudges sake.
We didn't claim any new land at all, the point of the Imperial Cartographique institution is to name the geography appropriately, that and to give my players a chance to have some input on the culture and civilisation, and not to lay out our intended political map and realm geography. Anyone who thinks otherwise has missed the point. The Orvandeaux Candiela was decided upon before we were even aware of a Barcan claim over the regions anyway. Declaring the Mendicontinent and the Allo'mere are the closest thing to an outright claim to political dominion, and considering at the time it was made Mendicant was in possession of all the territories, it's not exactly provocative.
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In RL, map designations have been cited in numerous international court cases as grounds for establishing claim. Map-drawing was intensely political in the Middle Ages as well.
Publication of geographic designations is INTENSELY political.
They specified part of Barca's lands as part of "Mendicontinent." Them's fightin' words.
They weren't published at large, they were only ever published within the Aurvandilan University and Noblesse to be discussed and considered, which is why they had only three things on it and the rest unnamed. Of course since we had them up on the wiki everyone else assumed their characters would be in full possession of such knowledge..
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They weren't published at large, they were only ever published within the Aurvandilan University and Noblesse to be discussed and considered, which is why they had only three things on it and the rest unnamed. Of course since we had them up on the wiki everyone else assumed their characters would be in full possession of such knowledge..
Unless something on the Wiki is explicitly marked otherwise (or obviously OOC information, like descriptions of the layouts of game pages or how to get on IRC), it is by default considered to be public knowledge.
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How presumptuous.
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I would have thought it would at least require a suitable in character, roleplayed explanation on how your character gained the information. Rather than just have insta knowledge of anything placed on the wiki regardless of the context.
Or at least that is how I play Mendicant.
Such is generally considered Good Form, but it is not against the rules to use the information without providing such an explanation. (This is similar to the way information contained in RP messages is treated: even if your character merely thinks it, it is permissible for other characters to be in possession of that knowledge without any explicit explanation. It is, however, also permissible (and, at least by me, strongly encouraged) for any character who comes into possession of knowledge of this suspicious sort without clear provenance to be treated as at best insane, and at worst consorting with demons.)
In addition, how do you know that Vellos didn't roleplay such an explanation—within his realm, when he first presented the information there?
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Such is generally considered Good Form, but it is not against the rules to use the information without providing such an explanation. (This is similar to the way information contained in RP messages is treated: even if your character merely thinks it, it is permissible for other characters to be in possession of that knowledge without any explicit explanation. It is, however, also permissible (and, at least by me, strongly encouraged) for any character who comes into possession of knowledge of this suspicious sort without clear provenance to be treated as at best insane, and at worst consorting with demons.)
In addition, how do you know that Vellos didn't roleplay such an explanation—within his realm, when he first presented the information there?
I always go under the dynamic of "Within reason" as in my character can know things placed on the wiki, within reason, as to it's nature and availability and the likelihood of Mendicant having any means to have actually gained such information in the first place.
And I don't know that Vellos didn't roleplay an explanation, but the question is, would Vellos have really had any sort of realistic way of finding out in the first place, and is the roleplay sufficient to explain his proquirement of maps being privately distributed on an In Character level for the purpose of discussion? That would be something of a leap.
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I always go under the dynamic of "Within reason" as in my character can know things placed on the wiki, within reason, as to it's nature and availability and the likelihood of Mendicant having any means to have actually gained such information in the first place.
This is what I, personally, generally do too, and encourage others to do. I was simply clarifying what's permitted.
And I don't know that Vellos didn't roleplay an explanation, but the question is, would Vellos have really had any sort of realistic way of finding out in the first place, and is the roleplay sufficient to explain his proquirement of maps being privately distributed on an In Character level for the purpose of discussion? That would be something of a leap.
Dunno. Ask him.
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I'm not really that bothered about the whole thing if I'm honest, I was just commenting on them having grudge over some maps being privately discussed in Aurvandil and declaring it an Aurvandilan attempt to exercise political claim and dominion over Barcan territories.
Mendicant didn't make any real strides to keep the information hidden so I'm not too fussed about them touting it in character if they want. If they wish to make a fuss over a barely discussed and scarcely considered cartographic map they're welcome to.
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I'm not really that bothered about the whole thing if I'm honest, I was just commenting on them having grudge over some maps being privately discussed in Aurvandil and declaring it an Aurvandilan attempt to exercise political claim and dominion over Barcan territories.
Personally, I think it's rather amusing, even though generally I have little sympathy for Aurvandil.
I picture a Terran spy in Aurvandil's archives, pulling out a copy of the map, being shocked at the sheer audacity of it, and immediately running it back to his masters. Meanwhile, Mendicant and his cronies are looking at another copy of the map in some council chamber, discussing earnestly whether it makes sense, and ultimately just saying, "Nah, that's too silly even for us," and throwing it on the fire.
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If they wish to make a fuss over a barely discussed and scarcely considered cartographic map they're welcome to.
Fusses are fun! I like a good fuss once in a while. There aren't enough truly important things to argue about in the game to afford to ignore the trivial ones.
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Personally, I think it's rather amusing, even though generally I have little sympathy for Aurvandil.
I picture a Terran spy in Aurvandil's archives, pulling out a copy of the map, being shocked at the sheer audacity of it, and immediately running it back to his masters. Meanwhile, Mendicant and his cronies are looking at another copy of the map in some council chamber, discussing earnestly whether it makes sense, and ultimately just saying, "Nah, that's too silly even for us," and throwing it on the fire.
Close, the discussions were "How can we make this map any more ridiculous?" "How many territories can we name after our nobles before some one notices?"
I can just imagine Mendicant leaving a map suspiciously near Terran where we declare Chateau Saffalore the High Sovereign's hunting lodge just to see Terran rage.
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Fusses are fun! I like a good fuss once in a while. There aren't enough truly important things to argue about in the game to afford to ignore the trivial ones.
And Aurvandil is very good at generating fuss over nothing.
Nobodies offended that Aurvandil had our Knight Hausos sharpen his sword on their Senate house, which to Aurvandil was the ultimate humiliation and most grievous repudiation of statehood a realm could ever suffer, but they were annoyed that Allomere mentally referred to their peasants as poorly dressed.
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Personally, I think it's rather amusing, even though generally I have little sympathy for Aurvandil.
I picture a Terran spy in Aurvandil's archives, pulling out a copy of the map, being shocked at the sheer audacity of it, and immediately running it back to his masters. Meanwhile, Mendicant and his cronies are looking at another copy of the map in some council chamber, discussing earnestly whether it makes sense, and ultimately just saying, "Nah, that's too silly even for us," and throwing it on the fire.
This is exactly what did happen. I found the link on the wiki so I deployed an adventurer to go to Candiels. He was supposed to send an RP but didn't; I wasted 50 coins on an adventurer who didn't even send the message he was supposed to (this was not the same adventurer who pooped in Mendicant's bed).
Furthermore, Hireshmont has a long-established roleplay of being cartographically obsessed– my OOC "Formal Geography of Dwilight" was an IC project of Hireshmont. Rival mapmakers must be killed on sight, obviously, so that he can exercise academic hegemony over cartographic references.
But more importantly to that, part of that longstanding RP is that Hireshmont actively maintains connections with the academia and cultural elite of minor nobility around the continent (those who remember Hireshmont's voyages around the continent know what I'm talking about).
As such, I had three separate IC means of gaining knowledge of these things:
1. I actually sent an adventurer to steal the physical piece of paper. He didn't RP like I wanted, so I dropped the "I stole your only copy and took a poop on Mendicontinent" route and went with "I got a copy somehow."
2. Hireshmont has a specific interest in maps. Cartography was not a common trade in Medieval times. Hireshmont's network would plausibly have a list of every major cartographer in the south– and Mendicant would be unlikely to hire some shmo with no references to handle the imperial map archives. As such, Hireshmont could plausibly claim (given his long involvement in cartographic projects) to have a connection, and a cordial one, to the cartographers themselves.
3. Hireshmont generally maintains ears around for cultural matters– and a large imperial cartographic project would be spoken of in elite circles
4. I should mention I was tipped off ICly by a miffed noble as well, but I'd already found out on the wiki, and thereby by the above methods. It's long enough ago it shouldn't matter. :P
Some of these items were explained to people with an interest in knowing, but, AFAIK, Mendicant never asked how we got the map. As I recall, he simply assumed we'd gone OOC and broken a rule (but I encourage the player to correct me if I'm remembering wrong).
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What you've done there is gone "I didn't have the information, so I roleplayed my character stealing it" you know, as if it works that way, which it doesn't. Your adventurer (Of all things) wouldn't have just walked in and taken it, like we leave it lying around and let peasants take liberties in the Palais Haut-Souverains and rifle through government papers, plans and designs in the heart of Aurvandilan government. That's just nonsense.
Mendicant never asked how you got the maps, because you never mentioned it to him, he doesn't know you have the maps and doesn't believe you would have it anyway, 'cause we don't just let any old noble wander around private areas and fiddle with our paperwork, let alone peasants. It's the player (Me) who assumed you have and unless you gained it IC (Your roleplay of "I just got it 'cause it was lying around" notwithstanding), you did get it OOC. I'm pretty certain Terran would have no links whatsoever to academia in Aurvandil nor even the cultural, intellectual and noble elite in Aurvandil, who all hold a strong distaste for Terran and Terran similarly holds a strong distaste of Aurvandil, as well as a great maw of ignorance to the Orvandeaux civilisation that portrays their entire lack of understanding of anything Orvandeaux.
If we're to go by that example, Mendicant could similarly deploy peasants to wander into the heart of Terran government and help themselves to whatever paperwork and state business they feel like. Except we realise that'd just be silly on the face of it. As I said, I'm not too bothered about you knowing IC, but then to say a peasant wandered in and stole the maps... well it's just insulting on an OOC level to roleplay such an extreme case of incompetence, failure and stupidity. You may as roleplay all the guards being paraplegics and the government of Aurvandil being a horde of the mentally disabled, and your wily adventurer tricking them all and physically besting the champions of Aurvandil.
Then again as I recall you do like to roleplay Aurvandil like that.
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If it's on the Wiki and it's presented in such a way that it isn't clear the knowledge is OOC-only, you can expect to see it used IC. End of debate.
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If it's on the Wiki and it's presented in such a way that it isn't clear the knowledge is OOC-only, you can expect to see it used IC. End of debate.
The debate was to show that it isn't as simple as that, and nor should it be that simple.
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The debate was to show that it isn't as simple as that, and nor should it be that simple.
It is that simple. It's on the Wiki.
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If it is on the Wiki, you can use it IG. People do that all the time :p
You may believe things shouldn't be that simple, but it is that simple. So if you don't want people to know you shouldn't really post anything secret on the wiki.
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It is that simple. It's on the Wiki.
Indeed.
You COULD put a notice on the page, and state this is OOC info only. But you didn't.
And even if you did, it'd just be poor form to use the info, not against the rules.
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The whole "if it's on the wiki, it's public info" can be viewed as a necessary evil. There's no way to police it, so what's the point of making rules against it? The simple way to look at it is this: "if you don't want people to know, then don't tell them".
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The whole "if it's on the wiki, it's public info" can be viewed as a necessary evil. There's no way to police it, so what's the point of making rules against it? The simple way to look at it is this: "if you don't want people to know, then don't tell them".
Exactly what I've learned from my mistakes...
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I get it now. It was not that they used different titles for the same geographical features. It was that the maps they drew mad it look like they considered some of Barca's lands to be a part of their kingdom. That makes more sense. It seems to me more like they considered some of their regions and some of Barca's regions to be a part of the same geographical region, but I like how the maps were used to build tension that encouraged war. Very cool.
Also, I think people over estimate how hard it can be to keep something a secret. As Vellos mentioned, news of a project like this would likely spread a bit. Unless Mendicant sat in a little locked room with no windows, drew the maps himself, immediately burned them and never told anyone about it, there is no reason the news might spread a bit. Aside from that, putting something on the wiki is like publishing a work. Unless it is marked OOC or is on a player page, I use all the information I reasonably can from the wiki. I do like how the founder of Aetheris Pyrism handled the religions wiki pages. He put a description on the top of each that describes who, in game, would likely have access to the information on that page. Seems like a good way to go in my view.
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It's also very important to remember that it isn't even just that the maps labeled parts of Barca as part of their "lands" or whatever, that is part of it, sure. But it isn't as if the maps made Terran declare war or something. I stated they were SOME of the beginnings of distaste/dislike for Aurvandil in Terran.
Why? Because although their arrogance is famed throughout BM now, they actually aren't the only arrogant ones. Terran sees itself as the dominate political, military, and cultural force in the Maroccidens. Terran built the 'Moot, it forged the political identity of the Maroccidental Republics, it founded Barca, Terran is the wellspring of civilization in the Maroccidens. When Aurvandil comes with such a foreign culture, foreign naming conventions, odd codes of honor/battle, an alien political system, weird views on religion, etc. it made Terran uneasy. The renaming of prominent areas of the Maroccidens, Madina Isle, the Candiels Peninsula, etc. is the perfect example of the culmination of all these things. Terran was miffed, and as Aurvandil became stronger and stronger, it felt further and further threatened by these foreign people with their funny names, strange beliefs, and weird customs.
Yeah, from and OOC/Modern perspective it's silliness. But from a BM perspective I think it is one of the more beautifully orchestrated medieval reactions I've been able to be a part of. The Aurvandil v. Terran/Moot conflict is not the typical BM conflict. It isn't just about land, or boredom, or just because thats the thing to do. It wasn't even on the flat level of "hey those guys aren't X religion! get 'em!" Rather, it was a huge culmination of animosity toward a foreign culture/peoples plus the growing feeling of being threatened by these foreigners as they grew in number and military power that was easily sparked into conflict when the inevitable border dispute or diplomatic issue arose.
It's awesome. It's so medieval. It's so Dwilight.
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As far as the availability of the maps goes, for as long I've been her its always been a "if its on the wiki consider it public knowledge" policy. Also, though Kale initially saw the maps from Hireshmont, I believe, I do know they circulated through the Dwilight University once or twice as well.
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Himourastan needs to happen. Just saying.
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Terran sees itself as the dominate political, military, and cultural force in the Maroccidens. Terran built the 'Moot, it forged the political identity of the Maroccidental Republics, it founded Barca, Terran is the wellspring of civilization in the Maroccidens.
D'Hara seems to remember a role in all of that. D'Haran gold wasn't only used by D'Harans, after all. ;)
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Apasyria is going to happen now
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D'Hara seems to remember a role in all of that. D'Haran gold wasn't only used by D'Harans, after all. ;)
Of course. :)
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When will Lapallanchia happen? :o
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What you've done there is gone "I didn't have the information, so I roleplayed my character stealing it" you know, as if it works that way, which it doesn't. Your adventurer (Of all things) wouldn't have just walked in and taken it, like we leave it lying around and let peasants take liberties in the Palais Haut-Souverains and rifle through government papers, plans and designs in the heart of Aurvandilan government. That's just nonsense.
Actually, it's completely legitimate for a player-character to roleplay stealing OOCly public information from a minor NPC. It doesn't have to be pre-plotted out in some perfectly-orchestrated RP. If it's consistent with either player's established RP, then it's in fine form for RP (though I note as many others have that we're arguing here, not about game rules, but about "good RP," a rather nebulous concept). I don't have to get your consent to RP doing something to a minor, NPC character.
Mendicant never asked how you got the maps, because you never mentioned it to him,
False, I did, several times. It was in our long message conversation a loooong time ago that got sidetracked in Mendicant being angry that I stated that Aurvandil came into existence by violence. Mendicant then sent Hireshmont several pages of messages about how Aurvandil was actually quite peace loving (then attacked Barca a few days later).
I'm pretty certain Terran would have no links whatsoever to academia in Aurvandil nor even the cultural, intellectual and noble elite in Aurvandil, who all hold a strong distaste for Terran and Terran similarly holds a strong distaste of Aurvandil, as well as a great maw of ignorance to the Orvandeaux civilisation that portrays their entire lack of understanding of anything Orvandeaux.
You do NOT get to speak for all nobles and intellectual or cultural elites of a realm. Aurvandil is not yours on an OOC level. Also, you assume Terran is ignorant of Orvandeaux culture– we're really not. Maybe once upon a time, but not so much anymore. Terran isn't ignorant of Aurvandil's culture, it just wants to kill Aurvandil's culture.
But more importantly, yes, Hireshmont does have connections in Candiels. I will note again that I did also receive the map via nobles elsewhere as well (though that's far from necessary). And, furthermore, medieval craftsmen were frequently connected by guilds. The well-established role of the Dwilight University in Dwilight of coordinating intellectual disciplines further suggests the presence of guilds. Hireshmont's role as the leading patron of cartography and an elder in the University in the continent would suggest that, yes, he probably has connections with Aurvandil's royal archives. Literate people who can manage royal archives are very rare in the middle ages (especially in secular realms like Aurvandil). The number of people who could handle such a task in a secular, hyper-militaristic realm consisting of a few tens of thousands of people can probably be counted on fingers and toes. Remove a few who may have whatever personal baggage, and the pool is very small. And very likely to be networked internationally (especially if their trade is cartography, specifically).
If we're to go by that example, Mendicant could similarly deploy peasants to wander into the heart of Terran government and help themselves to whatever paperwork and state business they feel like. Except we realise that'd just be silly on the face of it. As I said, I'm not too bothered about you knowing IC, but then to say a peasant wandered in and stole the maps... well it's just insulting on an OOC level to roleplay such an extreme case of incompetence, failure and stupidity. You may as roleplay all the guards being paraplegics and the government of Aurvandil being a horde of the mentally disabled, and your wily adventurer tricking them all and physically besting the champions of Aurvandil.
Then again as I recall you do like to roleplay Aurvandil like that.
Yes, if you can find a literate adventurer (finding one with a plausible reason for that was tough, let me tell you), you could certainly send him or her to Chateau Saffalore to steal an already publicly available document. That would be absolutely and obviously fine.
I'm not sure where you get the rest from– I don't know of anybody who has been roleplaying Aurvandil as mentally disabled or militarily weak. The only instance I can think of is the adventurer who pooped in Mendicant's bed; but that was rather a different situation.
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Get back on topic people.
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Guiland! Someday....
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As far as those realms named after characters on Dwilight go, it's justifiable. Dwilight was a new land with no prior culture or history for the colonists to base their realm names on. In real life when colonists and explorers found themselves in similar predicaments many of them responded by doing exactly what character's like Allison Kabrinskia did. You'll find a myriad of new world colonies named after individuals, such as Columbia (which is even phonetically similar to Kabrinskia).
In fact I'd go so far to say that naming realms after people is more historically justifiable than the standard fare of realm names which are essentially just arbitrary fantasy-sounding words. How exactly are names like Terran* or Aurvandil* more realistic than Kabrinskia? Terran is the Latin name for Earth, which doesn't make sense when applied to a realm and according to google, Aurvandil is an ancient Norse word for a specific star, which again doesn't make sense from a historical perspective (how many real life kingdoms were named after stars?)
*Note that I don't have a vendetta against Terran and Aurvandil (I think they sound cool), I just use them because they demonstrate my point.
If BM realms were to sound more realistic they would be named after the cultures that inhabit their general areas. There would be BM equivalents of England or France. Unfortunately such names are not possible, because BM varients of the Anglos and Franks don't exist. So in the end, chasing after realism in a game that does not support realism is pointless. Let there be realms named after people, Earth, stars, cities, whatever. In the end it makes no difference, they're there purely decoration anyhow.
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On top of that the naming after persons/families may even provide an extra dynamic. You'd want to rule a realm called after the Kabrinska's or Solari's? Maybe one Duke will prefer his own glory, Quennius sounds like a fun name, might try it one day hehe
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Actually, it's completely legitimate for a player-character to roleplay stealing OOCly public information from a minor NPC.
Interesting interpretation of legitimate.
You do NOT get to speak for all nobles and intellectual or cultural elites of a realm. Aurvandil is not yours on an OOC level. Also, you assume Terran is ignorant of Orvandeaux culture– we're really not. Maybe once upon a time, but not so much anymore. Terran isn't ignorant of Aurvandil's culture, it just wants to kill Aurvandil's culture.
Interesting. So you're not culturally ignorant of Aurvandil? Hmm.
Tell me more about how your character knows who Mendicant's Royal Champion is, or if your character knows what Orvandeaux Chivalry demands of our conduct in war, or how your character knows who the Porte-Auriflamme is and where the Auriflamme is kept, or if your character knows why we've left Tovabur rogue for so long, or why don't you tell me that your character knows why we have the Chevaliers Disith, and the Chevaliers Hausos, and what is the integral difference between the two? Oh does your character know why Mendicant is a High Sovereign and a king simultaneously? Does your character know what the name is of the sword we use to acclaim our Monarchs? Could your character correctly identify the three different philosophies embodied by Sarit, Mendicant and Allomere? For good measure, can your character correctly state why the Evanburg duchy is a Marquessate, the Tower Fatmilak duchy is a Margraviate, and Candiels an ordinary duchy, and what their different functions and governance are? Or could your character say why Bol is in the Candiels duchy despite the Margraviate separating it from Candiels?
If you "really not" ignorant of our culture as you boast, then your character will know the answer to each of these, these are the most basic roleplayed parts of Aurvandil and the most frequent at that. I'm sure your character knows well enough about the culture he wishes to destroy, otherwise you don't exactly have a business claiming to be knowledgeable of Orvandeaux culture.
I'm not sure where you get the rest from– I don't know of anybody who has been roleplaying Aurvandil as mentally disabled or militarily weak.
You do, of course, you never say it outright in your roleplays but you equate us to that by your portrayal of Aurvandil.
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The better question is - do they actually care enough and does it matter OOC or IC to them - and the answer is no.
Much like the clearly labeled "lies" that were spread by Soliferum about Nighthelm, or the ones Nighthelm spread about Soliferum, your view of your opponent doesn't have to represent or care about them.
All Vallyn needs to know about Aurvandilian culture (and he would use that term) is they are Royalists. Anything else is secondary to that one, vile fact. He doesn't care about anything other than that simple truth, and it is a truth. Therefore the rest of Aurvandil's internal RP's are irrelevant to him (and likely anyone else who doesn't really care what you RP inside your Realm.)
Much like I don't really care about the extensive and elaborate RP's for the Bloodstar Faith. Is it impressive - heck yes, but unless one of my characters decides to manipulate them using information like that, its not details I need (or really IC should know).
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If you "really not" ignorant of our culture as you boast, then your character will know the answer to each of these, these are the most basic roleplayed parts of Aurvandil and the most frequent at that.
Given how BattleMaster works, it would be interesting to see how many of the characters in Aurvandil could, off the top of their heads, answer these questions.
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Given how BattleMaster works, it would be interesting to see how many of the characters in Aurvandil could, off the top of their heads, answer these questions.
That and knowing a culture isn't being able to answer a set of questions. I could quiz noblesse on the history of America or even it's current politics but that is not the culture though from the current politics you get some of American culture. Culture is, as defined by dictionary.com, the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group: the youth culture; the drug culture. So if you can answer all those questions, you likely know Orvandeux culture, but just because you can't answer the questions doesn't mean you don't know the culture.
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If you "really not" ignorant of our culture as you boast, then your character will know the answer to each of these, these are the most basic roleplayed parts of Aurvandil and the most frequent at that. I'm sure your character knows well enough about the culture he wishes to destroy, otherwise you don't exactly have a business claiming to be knowledgeable of Orvandeaux culture.
Does a thief, spy, infiltrate or whatever need to know about some RP that maybe many of your realm-mates don't, as Indirik says? Even assuming he/she reached those documents because of his relations among Aurvandilian cartographers, as a person related to those studies, he wouldn't have to know anything about the Chevaliers X or the Chevaliers Y. He doesn't even have to know all about Aurvandilian geographic and political issues. He could even be a cartographer's slave lover, which wouldn't be rare in such a rich realm.
And maybe the character doesn't have a particular feeling about Aurvandil, he just does his job. And does it fine, if gets to steal those documents.
Anyway, if you published that on the Wiki, you'd expect it to be seen by other players. I guess you didn't expect them to just agree if that if it concerned another realm.
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... who the Porte-Auriflamme is and where the Auriflamme is kept...
Huh. Sounds like some cosmetics brand ;D
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And Aurvandil is very good at generating fuss over nothing.
Nobodies offended that Aurvandil had our Knight Hausos sharpen his sword on their Senate house, which to Aurvandil was the ultimate humiliation and most grievous repudiation of statehood a realm could ever suffer, but they were annoyed that Allomere mentally referred to their peasants as poorly dressed.
You really wish to bring this up again? Seriously?
As far as I know, the irritation was purely at an OOC level for ridiculous arrogance poor roleplay.
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You really wish to bring this up again? Seriously?
As far as I know, the irritation was purely at an OOC level for ridiculous arrogance poor roleplay.
If you character's in the capital of the other, sharpening your stuff on their buildings is a perfectly legitimate RP. IC humiliating or not. He's there, what would stop him?
However, describing their housing as mud huts or saying the locals look like anything degrading is based purely on an OOC desire to humiliate. Because you aren't RPing your character and his actions anymore, you are RPing the others'.
But after all of the debates, I'm not surprised you still don't get the reason why so many people find Aurvandilian RPs offensive.
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Interesting interpretation of legitimate.
Interesting. So you're not culturally ignorant of Aurvandil? Hmm.
Tell me more about how your character knows who Mendicant's Royal Champion is, or if your character knows what Orvandeaux Chivalry demands of our conduct in war, or how your character knows who the Porte-Auriflamme is and where the Auriflamme is kept, or if your character knows why we've left Tovabur rogue for so long, or why don't you tell me that your character knows why we have the Chevaliers Disith, and the Chevaliers Hausos, and what is the integral difference between the two? Oh does your character know why Mendicant is a High Sovereign and a king simultaneously? Does your character know what the name is of the sword we use to acclaim our Monarchs? Could your character correctly identify the three different philosophies embodied by Sarit, Mendicant and Allomere? For good measure, can your character correctly state why the Evanburg duchy is a Marquessate, the Tower Fatmilak duchy is a Margraviate, and Candiels an ordinary duchy, and what their different functions and governance are? Or could your character say why Bol is in the Candiels duchy despite the Margraviate separating it from Candiels?
lol, right. Because, what, 10 years of Orvandeux rule of Candiels is enough to establish a culture?
My knowledge of Orvndeux elite royalist culture is more extensive than you think– but assuredly not complete.
But your apparent idea that every single person in Candiels, from street urchin to duke, is part of a monolithic culture, that every tradesman sees himself as Orvandeaux, is not only presumptuous and out of line with basic rules of RP, but also very non-SMA.
You're right: I don't know the answer to all those questions. And I'm sure you've come up with all sorts of fancy RPs about them and hundreds more questions. But that doesn't mean, not in the slightest, that you get to decide that every leather-worker in Candiels is an ardent royalist true-believer.
Your RP must account for the fact that your peasants have shown a recent propensity for street violence, mob rule, overthrow of nobles, and a shocking amount of sympathy for the Astroist theocracies. Which tells me you have Normans ruling Saxons. Your people are not all Chevaliers even if your nobles are.