Yes, we all agree it was horrible and good riddance.
but...
I do believe in the basic concept, that a realm that is boring should be punished. Now the difficult part is in determining when a war is cold and when a war is hot and all that. And I think we've all learnt it is crazy difficult to do that in code.
But...
Why do it in code at all? We have an incredible AI at our disposal, one that can determine whether a realm is in enough wars or boring as hell in like a second or so.
I am, of course, talking about our players.
We have a "protest" option so players can get rid of abusive government members. How about giving players a "this realm is boring" button as well, silent protest only? Results of this continuous in-game poll would be displayed to the ruler and general, and if it goes above a certain threshold, then a) the realm and b) they personally will suffer until some battles happen. A declaration of war (not a continuous state of war, only a NEW declaration of war!) could temporarily lower this value, but only players deciding that the realm isn't boring anymore would really keep it down.
Obviously, this is a rough thought at the moment, so please do tear it apart.
Primary goal:
Force the old geezers who do nothing but keep the status quo into more aggressive politics or else make way for new, ambitious characters who will.
Good step but i can see many problems coming from this and high vulnerability for abuse.
Perhaps if we put different values for different kind of players?
For example those who rarely complain get a little more value, long term players/medals increase value, new realm members get a bit less value.
Then still mechanics could help.
The game can determine if there is a battle between nobles or just rogues(rogue battles should also be included but with far less value), and also how many.
It can also determine how much looting or takeover activities are being preformed, how many men are lost and recruited.
Can we use those values and their frequency over time?
Also punishing a general for a realms foreign policy is perhaps a bit extreme.
Why not use the value to further reward individual troop leaders/nobles instead.
Perhaps every single noble with an estate could implement war tax on there estate, an extra tax income which they can set by them selves depending on the overall value of the poll and mechanics as stated above(to determine if the realm is at a real war or not).
The tax share possibilities could increase or decrease depending on that value.
And perhaps have a slight effect on the region, with lords not or barley able to get a picture of how much his individual knights get from there extra war taxes, so he wont adjust the knights share for example. This extra tax should also be further untaxable by lords nor Duke nor King.
This will give every aligned noble an extra motivation to join high value realms, forcing low value realms to go to war with neighbours, or split and fight its self.
This will also affect leaderships of realms.
Everyone should get a rough idea of the values of realms on the continents there in or going to.
To see who's values are lowest, medium and highest for example.
We shouldn't focus on allowing new realm members to protest there realm and punish rulers, but simply be able to get to a good realm in the first place, get extra personal taxes from there estate, go to war and have fun.
I can still see many flaws in my own ideas, we would still need to focus on other mechanics to further penalize really large realms.
In case that large realm stops fighting and two small realms are fighting on the other side of the continent, nobles will start flocking there.
A massive alliance block will not likely exist long but what stops one large realm to intervene in every conflict just to keep there value high and the majority of its nobility supporting that?
Battlemaster needs more balancing factors to keep wars long and intense like when i joined in jan 2005 and had my characters fight the Yssrian/Caligan war on the EC, with battles almost every day for atleast a year.
The dev team has already been working on this in various ways and i am happy to see them going into this direction.
Further penalties on large realms in terms of resources or resource efficiency along with restricting alliance and peace diplomacy for them depending on size (so small realms can have more alliances then large realms).
Realms like Perdan, Sirion or Caligus could be restricted to one Ally, and two peace treaties, while small realms like Eponllyn or Fallangard can have several allies and no peace restriction.
I like the idea, but the mechanic is not really a BM mechanic though... voting to determine something like this? ??? it's just weird.
I really like the war taxes idea, and there is historical basis too. Though I am not sure what its going to do to the BM economy, especially some places where there is just a glut of gold.
Quote from: Bhranthan on August 28, 2013, 11:11:25 AM
Perhaps every single noble with an estate could implement war tax on there estate, an extra tax income which they can set by them selves depending on the overall value of the poll and mechanics as stated above(to determine if the realm is at a real war or not).
Whether it's determined by a poll or mechanics, it's wide open to abuse. People would just game the system to obtain the extra income.
Quote from: Tom on August 28, 2013, 10:08:13 AM
How about giving players a "this realm is boring" button as well, silent protest only?
Heck, we could start with it having no IG effect at all beyond information—let the ruler and general know, and send the information to the dev team, as well, so we can get an overview of which realms are considered significantly boring.
If we see that some realms have a high percentage of players who think they're boring, then we can implement some kind of relatively slow-ramping negative effects.
Well the realm I am in is at war, and I still think its boring at times. Its better than when its was at peace-fun, but still...
I dont think the war taxes should really be set towards the poll though, its too open to abuse.
Maybe we should a recent battle detection or something, but then we will be back to a TMP system.
Quote from: Anaris on August 28, 2013, 01:31:07 PM
Heck, we could start with it having no IG effect at all beyond information—let the ruler and general know, and send the information to the dev team, as well, so we can get an overview of which realms are considered significantly boring.
If we see that some realms have a high percentage of players who think they're boring, then we can implement some kind of relatively slow-ramping negative effects.
Agreed. Let's do this as a first step and check on the results. It'll be a ton more informative then all the forum discussions.
Sounds like a good way for rulers to get candid anonymous feedback, assuming it would be anonymous. But make it a fluid ranking system, like a 5-star boredom index and allow players to change their rating whenever they choose. I'd also be in favour of making the scores public, for the benefit of players looking to join or leave a realm. Instead of requiring a declaration of war, I suggest allowing the players to decide when to rescind or change their rating. War is good, but not meaningless hasty wars without any context. There doesn't need to be an IG mechanism to punish boring rulers, because the boredom index will either nudge them to make things more interesting, or bored nobles will migrate to more interesting realms.
Quote from: Tom on August 28, 2013, 01:50:14 PM
Agreed. Let's do this as a first step and check on the results. It'll be a ton more informative then all the forum discussions.
If it's not something that has any real effects, then it won't be used. The data you gather will probably not be very useful.
If this is something that gets implemented it will have to have some serious thought as to how to prevent abuse. Having a battle with another realm should result in a significant drop in the value. Possibly other things as well.
Quote from: Indirik on August 28, 2013, 06:35:38 PM
If it's not something that has any real effects, then it won't be used. The data you gather will probably not be very useful.
I should think that "lets your Ruler and General know, anonymously, that you consider the current situation boring" and "lets the dev team know that your leaders aren't doing enough to keep things interesting for you" should be enough to get at least a fair number of people to use it.
Quote
If this is something that gets implemented it will have to have some serious thought as to how to prevent abuse. Having a battle with another realm should result in a significant drop in the value. Possibly other things as well.
War can be as boring as peace, if it's the wrong war. March two weeks, fight one battle, march two weeks back to refit...or even replace the battle part with sitting staring across the border for five days because no one dares make the first move.
We need to know
what people actually find boring.
Quote from: Anaris on August 28, 2013, 06:39:09 PM
We need to know what people actually find boring.
So give them a couple options. Instead of a
BORING button, give them a drop-down with three or four choices.
This realm is boring because:
1) The war we are in is boring. (Too much travel, not enough battles, etc.)
2) Nothing ever happens at all.
3) The nobles are kept in the dark, and never told anything.
4) Other.
Then at least you stand to get some decent feedback.
Quote from: Indirik on August 28, 2013, 06:43:48 PM
So give them a couple options. Instead of a BORING button, give them a drop-down with three or four choices.
This realm is boring because:
1) The war we are in is boring. (Too much travel, not enough battles, etc.)
2) Nothing ever happens at all.
3) The nobles are kept in the dark, and never told anything.
4) Other.
Then at least you stand to get some decent feedback.
That sounds reasonable. It should be a relatively trivial modification to the basic idea.
I created a feature request which, although inspired by this thread, is different enough to warrant a separate thread: http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,5069.0.html
Quote from: Indirik on August 28, 2013, 06:43:48 PM
So give them a couple options. Instead of a BORING button, give them a drop-down with three or four choices.
No
Very solid research shows that, basically (don't quote me on the exact number) every additional option cuts the number of responses you get in half.
If we want this to have any meaning, it must be as simple as possible. There's a reason a 5-star system is used so much - it works.
Quote from: Tom on August 28, 2013, 10:35:22 PM
There's a reason a 5-star system is used so much - it works.
(http://wiki.battlemaster.org/images/5star.png)
Not a fan of this idea at all.
There are a huge number of problems with it, particularly if it applied negative impacts on governments, rulers or realms.
So we give players a button to say they find their realm boring. Who's to say that isn't partially their own fault? You can't lay everything on the rulers. It's an invitation for players to say, "I'm bored,
you do something to make it interesting for me". Rather than, "I'm bored, what can I do to make this realm more interesting for us all?". Fair enough, being a ruler places a greater responsibility on a player to try to make things entertaining, but things are often beyond the control of one player to change.
Which brings me to the second point. Players in realm A press the 'Boring, boring, boring' button. So the ruler does what s/he can to start a war. The rulers of their allies in realms B and C take a look at what their own players are saying and find they are content with the
status quo. Realm A is forced into a suicidal war without allied support.
Quote from: Anaris on August 28, 2013, 01:31:07 PM
Heck, we could start with it having no IG effect at all beyond information—let the ruler and general know, and send the information to the dev team, as well, so we can get an overview of which realms are considered significantly boring.
If we see that some realms have a high percentage of players who think they're boring, then we can implement some kind of relatively slow-ramping negative effects.
I really don't think siccing the Dev team on a realm would be a good idea. Isn't that the sort of intervention that's always been avoided? Also, would players really be so foolish as to do something that would bring down negative effects on the realm they're playing in? Rather than... you know... talking to the leadership, stirring up internal dissent, or just leaving to find a realm they consider more interesting?
And that's really what it boils down to. If players find the realm boring and are dissatisfied we already have a mechanism to address that - pack your bags and move somewhere else. The only reason for them to stay in the realm and also say it's boring is so they can keep a title or some other perk while blaming someone else.
Sorry if that comes across as a harsh criticism, but it reflects how much I dislike this idea.
Quote from: Foxglove on August 29, 2013, 02:26:15 AM
Not a fan of this idea at all.
There are a huge number of problems with it, particularly if it applied negative impacts on governments, rulers or realms.
So we give players a button to say they find their realm boring. Who's to say that isn't partially their own fault? You can't lay everything on the rulers. It's an invitation for players to say, "I'm bored, you do something to make it interesting for me". Rather than, "I'm bored, what can I do to make this realm more interesting for us all?". Fair enough, being a ruler places a greater responsibility on a player to try to make things entertaining, but things are often beyond the control of one player to change.
Which brings me to the second point. Players in realm A press the 'Boring, boring, boring' button. So the ruler does what s/he can to start a war. The rulers of their allies in realms B and C take a look at what their own players are saying and find they are content with the status quo. Realm A is forced into a suicidal war without allied support.
I really don't think siccing the Dev team on a realm would be a good idea. Isn't that the sort of intervention that's always been avoided? Also, would players really be so foolish as to do something that would bring down negative effects on the realm they're playing in? Rather than... you know... talking to the leadership, stirring up internal dissent, or just leaving to find a realm they consider more interesting?
And that's really what it boils down to. If players find the realm boring and are dissatisfied we already have a mechanism to address that - pack your bags and move somewhere else. The only reason for them to stay in the realm and also say it's boring is so they can keep a title or some other perk while blaming someone else.
Sorry if that comes across as a harsh criticism, but it reflects how much I dislike this idea.
I feel the same way Foxglove does about this, but couldn't think of how to say it.
Quote from: Gustav Kuriga on August 29, 2013, 03:48:54 AM
I feel the same way Foxglove does about this, but couldn't think of how to say it.
I agree with Gustav & Foxglove, but I think the idea has some merit. I'd be interested in your feedback on this feature request, which I think addresses the central issue of this thread as well as the problems your both raised. http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,5069.0.html
Having thought about this idea for a while, I have to say that I don't like it. Way too easy to abuse.
It seems unnecessary to add an additional protest option. If you want war, and the realm ruler/general says no...publicly protest and try to get them out of office. If the realm is behind you, then more people will protest...if not, then they are having fun in peace or can't feasibly go to war. Adding anonymous "no fun" buttons just adds potential griefers, less interaction between characters, and more OOC distractions.
The first recourse for being bored in your realm is to talk to your realm-mates. If there is no fun to be had there, then finding some adversary is a good way (typically war, but there is plenty of fun in schemes and RP rivalry). If no one is willing to reciprocate anything fun (council refuses war, everyone is happy sitting in their regions playing with themselves), then it's time to pack up and go on a journey for greener pastures.
Boring realms will notice themselves shrink and eventually be eaten by interesting realms. Realms split in the middle with people wanting interesting things to happen and people happy with the status quot will go into civil war. A kind of 'natural order' is needed in the game....not a "I'm not having fun but I don't want to lose my fat Dukedom" button.
Thoughts (only skimmed the thread):
1. Make purely informational at first. Eventually phase in as exclusively personal: don't punish a realm (TMP revealed that doesn't work well), punish the people. In a boring realm, make council members and dukes take H/P hits.
2. Don't make it a cast-your-votes kind of thing. Make it a static rating, so everyone "votes" automatically, they can just change their vote: this makes it hard for a small number of griefers to spam the system. If three out of 30 people are bored, they shouldn't be able to use this mechanic to their advantage (because 27 people aren't bored...)
3. Make the game text absolutely crystal clear: i.e. don't mix IC and OOC. If it's intended to be an OOC mechanic, put the mechanic in the gray background with a giant freaking "OOC USE ONLY" warning on it. Or else be ready for ambiguity and abuse a la the vulgarity system.
4. Be prepared for misuse. I give it 3 days before it is used as a protest system. Players will coordinate boredom votes with protests, even if their protest movement is actually making the realm less boring, they'll bump up boredom votes. I would suggest something as simple as, "If you protest, your boredom vote immediately changes to 'I love this realm and am not bored at all.' " Because otherwise there's a perverse incentive to misreport your opinions. If you're engaged in an active protest to remove a sitting ruler, you're not bored. Maybe you're protesting because you WERE bored, but you aren't anymore, so your vote SHOULD change (PS- this would give rulers of bored realms incentives to PROVOKE protest and conflict, which is good for the game!)
Quote from: Vellos on September 02, 2013, 03:23:39 PM
4. Be prepared for misuse. I give it 3 days before it is used as a protest system. Players will coordinate boredom votes with protests, even if their protest movement is actually making the realm less boring, they'll bump up boredom votes. I would suggest something as simple as, "If you protest, your boredom vote immediately changes to 'I love this realm and am not bored at all.' " Because otherwise there's a perverse incentive to misreport your opinions. If you're engaged in an active protest to remove a sitting ruler, you're not bored. Maybe you're protesting because you WERE bored, but you aren't anymore, so your vote SHOULD change (PS- this would give rulers of bored realms incentives to PROVOKE protest and conflict, which is good for the game!)
I've got a simpler solution to this, which will also address short-term fluctuations in how boring a realm is:
The ratings never take effect immediately. Rather, they phase in over a period of, say, two weeks.
Quote from: Anaris on September 02, 2013, 03:44:22 PM
I've got a simpler solution to this, which will also address short-term fluctuations in how boring a realm is:
The ratings never take effect immediately. Rather, they phase in over a period of, say, two weeks.
Hmmm....
No....that means if a ruler does fix things, he still gets two weeks of punishment.
Changes to indicate increasing boredom should have a time delay: changes to indicate improvement should be immediate. So if you're a ruler and you see you're getting unpopular, you can fix it fast.
Alternatively, give "zero-time-delay" values for informational purposes, but make game mechanics use time-delayed values.
Overall though I still just think that we would need a very, very clear set of norms and rules on how the feature is intended to be used.
Quote from: Vellos on September 02, 2013, 04:01:31 PM
Hmmm....
No....that means if a ruler does fix things, he still gets two weeks of punishment.
Changes to indicate increasing boredom should have a time delay: changes to indicate improvement should be immediate. So if you're a ruler and you see you're getting unpopular, you can fix it fast.
That would work.
Quote
Alternatively, give "zero-time-delay" values for informational purposes, but make game mechanics use time-delayed values.
Overall though I still just think that we would need a very, very clear set of norms and rules on how the feature is intended to be used.
Norms and rules are all very well, but they rarely survive first contact with subtle griefers.
Tim is on the right track.
Negative votes should "ramp up" over time, to create a time-delay effect, while positive votes count immediately. That way, if the realm stays boring for a while, punishments start to creep in, and increase, but as soon as it changes, everything goes back to normal.
Quote from: Anaris on September 02, 2013, 03:44:22 PM
I've got a simpler solution to this, which will also address short-term fluctuations in how boring a realm is:
The ratings never take effect immediately. Rather, they phase in over a period of, say, two weeks.
I don't think that's helpful or necessary, especially if this is an information tool. I understand you want to prevent people from making hasty inferences from a single data point, but
let them. It would be unwise for them to do so, but that's on them. You don't always have to save people from their own mistakes, and
most people are smart enough to understand that it's an opinion poll, players are human, and humans are whimsical. It would be subject to same vagaries as all statistical samples. Personally, the way I would look at it, a 1% move from one day to the next is negligible. However, if there's a 80% change, I'd like to know about it now because in 2 weeks it will probably be to late do anything.
Trust me, the devs are not in the business of saving people from their own mistakes...
I do agree with Vellos in that we definitely need to be 100% certain that we differentiate that this is either an IC or an OOC thing, and take actions accordingly. Personally, I can't see how this could possibly be an IC thing. It only makes sense that it could be an OOC rating. And if so, giving H/P penalties is completely inappropriate, as they are IC character attributes. Giving IC penalties for an OOC mechanic is never a good thing.
Quote from: Indirik on September 02, 2013, 04:57:32 PM
Trust me, the devs are not in the business of saving people from their own mistakes...
I do agree with Vellos in that we definitely need to be 100% certain that we differentiate that this is either an IC or an OOC thing, and take actions accordingly. Personally, I can't see how this could possibly be an IC thing. It only makes sense that it could be an OOC rating. And if so, giving H/P penalties is completely inappropriate, as they are IC character attributes. Giving IC penalties for an OOC mechanic is never a good thing.
Sorry, what's H/P? I may have said this already, but I don't think there should a built-in penalty for boredom. Realms should be allowed to be boring, and players are free to leave a realm whenever they choose. Some boredom is inevitable. Battles wouldn't be as exciting without some anticipation. If a realm decides to take a few weeks or months to build up their army, the boredom level will naturally increase, but for good reason. Let the
players decide how much boredom they will tolerate, not some algorithm.
Quote from: Buffalkill on September 02, 2013, 05:13:59 PM
Sorry, what's H/P? I may have said this already, but I don't think there should a built-in penalty for boredom. Realms should be allowed to be boring, and players are free to leave a realm whenever they choose. Some boredom is inevitable. Battles wouldn't be as exciting without some anticipation. If a realm decides to take a few weeks or months to build up their army, the boredom level will naturally increase, but for good reason. Let the players decide how much boredom they will tolerate, not some algorithm.
And if a realm has been at peace for a year or more? Or engaged in a war where all they ever do is march a week or two to the front, fight a battle, then march back, for months on end?
The point of this feature is
exactly to let the players decide how much boredom they will tolerate.
Quote from: Anaris on September 02, 2013, 06:01:50 PM
And if a realm has been at peace for a year or more? Or engaged in a war where all they ever do is march a week or two to the front, fight a battle, then march back, for months on end?
The point of this feature is exactly to let the players decide how much boredom they will tolerate.
If it's
too boring, players/characters will defect and eventually the realm will wither and die. That's a more poetic end than any automated penalty. If players have access to the boredom data of all realms, chronically boring realms will be punished
naturally by defections, OR if they have some sentimental attachment to their boring realm, the data will signal to them that they're in a boredom crisis and they need to do something to save it before it's too late. If the data is delayed, they can't make effective use of it.
My recently deceased char was in a tiny fledgling realm with about 8 regions. Because of its size, we were constantly vulnerable. We needed to strengthen the realm from the inside to survive. Some people found that process boring, and many chars left, but it was necessary for our survival. The rest of us stayed to build our little underdog realm with the hope that our slogging would eventually pay off. If we had been compelled to go to war by game mechanics or popular vote, we would have been wiped out. The moral of the story is, let the realms chart their own course. Every realm has its own unique circumstances, and they are in the best position to decide what to do with those circumstances.
Quote from: Buffalkill on September 02, 2013, 06:33:37 PM
If it's too boring, players/characters will defect and eventually the realm will wither and die. That's a more poetic end than any automated penalty.
It's also demonstrably not true, or at least not true enough. Yes, players will leave, but there will always be those whose identities are too tied to the realm to be willing to do so. These are the same arguments that have been made, time and again, for why we shouldn't need things like Too Much Peace. But we do. Because, by and large, our players
don't stand up for themselves. They
don't leave a bad realm. They
don't protest a bad king.
Would it be better if things worked they way you say? Sure! I'd love to be able to let the boring-realms problem take care of itself. But it just doesn't.
On other thing to consider: this option should not, in any way, be a replacement for IG/IC action. Players who are bored, or who don't like their ruler, shouldn't be able to just hit the "BORING" button, and destroy their ruler inside of a week. Players still need to take IG action to help themselves and their realm.
Quote from: Anaris on September 02, 2013, 07:45:23 PM
It's also demonstrably not true, or at least not true enough. Yes, players will leave, but there will always be those whose identities are too tied to the realm to be willing to do so. These are the same arguments that have been made, time and again, for why we shouldn't need things like Too Much Peace. But we do. Because, by and large, our players don't stand up for themselves. They don't leave a bad realm. They don't protest a bad king.
Would it be better if things worked they way you say? Sure! I'd love to be able to let the boring-realms problem take care of itself. But it just doesn't.
I believe that will change if this data is made available to all players. Knowledge is empowering (as I'm
sure you know) so give the players the ability to make
informed decisions. If it's their decision to stay in a boring realm, that's
their decision. You may get a bunch of boring players playing together in the Dronesville Republic, and that's fine. Other players (including leaders) will find it hard to ignore the problem when the data is available to them in black & white.
Think about newbies. You start playing in a realm and it's boring. As a newbie, you don't know if it's the
realm that's boring, you just think it's a boring game. If they could compare player data from different realms, then they could see that a) I'm in a boring realm and I should change to a better one; or b) I'm in a fun realm and I'm still bored, so clearly this game's not for me and I should stick to Grand Theft Auto.
Quote from: Buffalkill on September 02, 2013, 10:09:59 PM
I believe that will change if this data is made available to all players. Knowledge is empowering (as I'm sure you know) so give the players the ability to make informed decisions. If it's their decision to stay in a boring realm, that's their decision. You may get a bunch of boring players playing together in the Dronesville Republic, and that's fine. Other players (including leaders) will find it hard to ignore the problem when the data is available to them in black & white.
Think about newbies. You start playing in a realm and it's boring. As a newbie, you don't know if it's the realm that's boring, you just think it's a boring game. If they could compare player data from different realms, then they could see that a) I'm in a boring realm and I should change to a better one; or b) I'm in a fun realm and I'm still bored, so clearly this game's not for me and I should stick to Grand Theft Auto.
I like the idea of making boringness scores public; allows players to shop around for fund realms.
Quote from: Indirik on September 02, 2013, 08:15:24 PM
On other thing to consider: this option should not, in any way, be a replacement for IG/IC action. Players who are bored, or who don't like their ruler, shouldn't be able to just hit the "BORING" button, and destroy their ruler inside of a week. Players still need to take IG action to help themselves and their realm.
Indeed. All the more reason to make it an information tool for players, instead of some built-in algorithm. Give players the information and let them decide what to do with it.
I believe it should purely be an information tool for how fun a Realm is (For both the Ruler and the Devs and whoever), at least while we judge how effective it is and check the results. If you make those scores public, it will become a player-attraction/repulsion tool. Because many Realms are great fun with more Nobles. Things like that, just like counting the amount of messages and other such earlier proposals to measure a Realm, just seem too easy to game. To me there seems to be a good chance that whatever information you get out of such a tool will be less reliable and a worse indicator of fun-ness if we make it public. It'd be better if we at least start it with private scores.
Quote from: Vellos on September 02, 2013, 10:42:22 PM
I like the idea of making boringness scores public; allows players to shop around for fund realms.
That's the idea.
First step: Implement the option to give a score and calculate the average and display it.
It will also make players and leaders more accountable. If the realm score is chronically low, it would behoove the leadership to find out why, and maybe even communicate with their fellow players. There's no reason a ruler (or any player) can't send his realm a msg saying "I know things have been stagnant lately, here's the reason [...]", OR, "I hope you'll bear with us, because things are about to get really exciting in the next couple of weeks," OR, "I noticed an increase in boredom lately, let's have an OOC discussion about how to shake things up."
This will soooo much more effective than some edict from the gods telling the ruler what to do.
Quote from: Telrunya on September 02, 2013, 11:15:42 PM
(For both the Ruler and the Devs and whoever), at least while we judge how effective it is and check the results.
Strongly disagree. Making the data public is what makes it effective. Also, while
characters have ranks,
players should be equal. Since this is a player tool, all players should have full access.
Quote from: Telrunya on September 02, 2013, 11:15:42 PM
If you make those scores public, it will become a player-attraction/repulsion tool. Because many Realms are great fun with more Nobles.
You're assuming everyone will go to the realm with the highest score. I disagree. Different players are looking for different things. So players looking for a challenge, or a promotion, might be drawn to fledgling realms. Yes, it will also cause some to leave, but if a realm is unable to attract/keep nobles, it doesn't deserve to survive. And if people want to
save their poor, stagnant realm, this tool can help them do it.
I agree with Telrunya, People are going to score differently if it's a public score. If they know that the score is going to affect how how other people look at the realm, and possibly the recruitment of new players, they will score differently than if its a private score. And if it's going to be a player repulsion/attraction tool, the more established players will vote to ensure the survival of the realm, instead of an accurate assessment of the situation of the realm.
Quote from: Jaron on September 03, 2013, 12:20:23 AM
I agree with Telrunya, People are going to score differently if it's a public score. If they know that the score is going to affect how how other people look at the realm, and possibly the recruitment of new players, they will score differently than if its a private score. And if it's going to be a player repulsion/attraction tool, the more established players will vote to ensure the survival of the realm, instead of an accurate assessment of the situation of the realm.
Disagree. It would be foolish for anyone to think that this one value tells them everything they need to know. It would be subject to same vagaries as ALL statistical samples. When you look at movies on Netflix or Rotten Tomatoes, you might
consider the ratings when deciding which movie to watch, but you wouldn't base your decision on it entirely. As I said earlier,
most people are smart enough to understand that it's an opinion poll, players are human, and humans are whimsical.
Also, it's not only for deciding to join or leave a realm. It's for gauging whether your realm is on the right track, or if players need to do something different to make it fun.
Buffakill, your arguments in this matter would be quite good ones, if people in general acted in a rational manner and in the interests of the many.
Thus, they are woefully unsuited to dealing with reality.
If people see that a realm is rated as "boring", 9 times out of 10, they will just skip it.
If people know that their rating of how boring their realm is will be known by people looking at their realm, 9 times out of 10, they will just rate it as "5 out of 5 stars, super-fun!" regardless of the truth.
Quote from: Anaris on September 03, 2013, 01:14:21 AM
If people see that a realm is rated as "boring", 9 times out of 10, they will just skip it.
Nothing wrong with that. If a realm consistently sucks, it'll die a slow death, and good riddance.
Quote from: Anaris on September 03, 2013, 01:14:21 AM
If people know that their rating of how boring their realm is will be known by people looking at their realm, 9 times out of 10, they will just rate it as "5 out of 5 stars, super-fun!" regardless of the truth.
I don't think so, because the people who look at it the most will be those who are inside the realm, who care about making the realm fun, such as the rulers and those in leadership positions.
And look, it's not just the actual score that matters, it's changes in the score over time. If my realm is consistently 5/5, and it goes to 3/5, then I know
something is rotten in the state of Denmark. Doesn't mean it's the ruler's fault necessarily, but if he's a good leader, he'll find out what the problem is and fix it.
You can't guarantee that players will vote with a certain mind. When I take the Pepsi challenge, they don't know if I'm telling the truth, or if I'm bull!@#$ting them because my friend works for Coke. When I rate films on Netflix, they don't know if I've seen the movie that I'm rating. Maybe I just gave it a 1 because Mel Gibson's a douche (I'm sure many people do that) or maybe I gave it 5/5 because there's a hot girl on the poster. Maybe I was just in a bad mood when I saw it, so I didn't fully appreciate it. That's the nature of statistics, though giving the numbers of votes helps. A 4/5 with 80 votes is a better statistical sample than a 5/5 with 3 votes. The more votes, the harder it is to manipulate.
Quote from: Anaris on September 03, 2013, 01:14:21 AM
Buffakill, your arguments in this matter would be quite good ones, if people in general acted in a rational manner and in the interests of the many.
Thus, they are woefully unsuited to dealing with reality.
If people see that a realm is rated as "boring", 9 times out of 10, they will just skip it.
If people know that their rating of how boring their realm is will be known by people looking at their realm, 9 times out of 10, they will just rate it as "5 out of 5 stars, super-fun!" regardless of the truth.
If a larger number of players compared to other realms is content to rate it 5, fine. It's a subjective response survey: trying to approximate objectivity is not only probably not possible, but actually damages the point of the survey.
Most players will probably go with whatever the default setting is. IMHO, default should be set at 3/5, though I could see reasons to set it at 2/5 or 1/5. Many players will, as you say, just go with the team and bmp it to the max. But there's no reason to honk that an "objectively boring realm" will make such team participation MORE likely than in "objectively exciting realm." Indeed, probably the exciting realm has a slightly smaller share of players who are engaged, and a slightly lower share of players willing to give the realm a flunking score.
And ill repeat: if there's a realm we objectively think is dull, but it subjectively isn't rated that way, is hat really our problem? I suspect players probably sort themselves fairly well so that this tool will have limited usefulness across realms, but significant usefulness across times.
Had a longer bit about longitudinal vs. cross-sectional usefulness of data. Suspect 1st much more useful than 2nd due to self selection on tastes and playing style by realm, but on mobile now so don't want to peck and peck away typing the whole bit.
Quote from: Vellos on September 03, 2013, 02:42:29 AM
Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah
How
dare you explain !@#$ better than me! ;)
Kidding. Somebody obviously knows what he's talking about.
Quote from: Buffalkill on September 03, 2013, 02:24:42 AM
I don't think so, because the people who look at it the most will be those who are inside the realm, who care about making the realm fun, such as the rulers and those in leadership positions.
Most, especially in already 'boring' realms will vote to make their realm
win.
Quote from: Sacha on September 03, 2013, 12:42:24 PM
Most, especially in already 'boring' realms will vote to make their realm win.
Thus attracting people who are then pissed at them because they expected a fun realm and got a boring one, and will express that in their votes.
I'm still not a fan of this idea at all. I just don't see it working. Also, like I said a few days ago, we already have a mechanism to address players finding a realm boring - they can move their character somewhere else. Anaris said a while back that people don't move from realms they find boring, so why is that the fault of anyone else apart from the particular player? Like I said in my first post, them making a boredom vote would simply mean, "I'm bored, other players should do something to make the game more interesting for me". Rather than, "I'm bored, I should do something to make the game more interesting for myself".
I just can't get my head around the idea of why players are going to vote to say their own realm is boring and possibly bring down negative effects (if implemented), rather than trying to make the realm more interesting themselves or moving. It just seems like a mechanic to please the lazy. Or for those who would join a realm to have a voting tool to damage a realm they dislike or have some grudge against.
I also remember that a while ago people were complaining about government elections being too frequent and they were getting voting fatigue. So then we introduce a new OOC boredom vote mechanism for them to further complain about? I truly don't think people will bother voting. If this idea is insisted upon, the boredom guage should default to the highest "satisfied" end of the rating scale, making people have to actively choose to lower their vote. Even then deciding on frequency of voting will be hellishly difficult. This is particularly true if any sort of negative effects apply to realm or characters.
I really think that this whole idea is barking up the wrong the tree.
Afterthought - on further reflection, the only outside possibility I can see of a boredom vote being useful in any way is if players are asked to vote on the state of their entire island. The question would be something like, "Do you find this island boring?". Then it's on the entire player base of an island to make it more interesting. Lack of wars is normally because a number of realms want to maintain the status quo, so make it an island-wide issue, rather than blaming single realms.
Quote from: Foxglove on September 03, 2013, 03:11:19 PM
I'm still not a fan of this idea at all. I just don't see it working.
In its
original form, the worst possible case is that we get useless data. The most likely bad result is simply insufficient data.
QuoteAlso, like I said a few days ago, we already have a mechanism to address players finding a realm boring - they can move their character somewhere else. Anaris said a while back that people don't move from realms they find boring, so why is that the fault of anyone else apart from the particular player?
Well, that's easy for you to say. It's my job to think about their fun as well, though.
Quote
I also remember that a while ago people were complaining about government elections being too frequent and they were getting voting fatigue. So then we introduce a new OOC boredom vote mechanism for them to further complain about? I truly don't think people will bother voting.
Apples and oranges.
This mechanic will not send you messages reminding you to vote every month, there will not be candidates or campaigns...in general, it won't look much like
voting at all. It will be
rating. There will be a page you can go to where you can set your realm's "fun rating". If you don't want to bother, you can just never ever go there, and no one will know or care. (Unless
everyone decides that, in which see the beginning of this post.)
Quote from: Foxglove on September 03, 2013, 03:11:19 PM
If this idea is insisted upon, the boredom guage should default to the highest "satisfied" end of the rating scale, making people have to actively choose to lower their vote.
I think this is a good idea, better than the inverse. The one (minor) issue I could have with such a system would be to see "Rate the realm better so we can attract new players!1!!1!!" OOC campaigns. If the default is set at the maximum, all these campaigns would achieve would be to get the jaded to look at a system they had never considered before - and possibly lower their vote. If the default is at an average or low level, then you will see OOC peer pressure being applied to new players to increase their vote rapidly rather than IC interaction, especially for new players.
Quote from: vonGenf on September 03, 2013, 03:30:09 PM
I think this is a good idea, better than the inverse. The one (minor) issue I could have with such a system would be to see "Rate the realm better so we can attract new players!1!!1!!" OOC campaigns. If the default is set at the maximum, all these campaigns would achieve would be to get the jaded to look at a system they had never considered before - and possibly lower their vote. If the default is at an average or low level, then you will see OOC peer pressure being applied to new players to increase their vote rapidly rather than IC interaction, especially for new players.
I don't see there being any reason to have a default at all.
Quote from: Foxglove on September 03, 2013, 03:11:19 PM
we already have a mechanism to address players finding a realm boring - they can move their character somewhere else. Anaris said a while back that people don't move from realms they find boring, so why is that the fault of anyone else apart from the particular player?
I think there's probably some truth that players are reluctant to move out of their realm because they feel some attachment to it as part of their char's identity. For them, leaving a realm would probably be a last resort. They won't pick up and leave at the first sign of boredom, but a negative shift in player ratings could serve as an early warning. If I'm sick of my realm, I may not leave it today or tomorrow, but I'll express my dissatisfaction through the rating system. If, say, in a month or two I still don't like it, maybe then I'll move.
Quote from: Anaris on September 03, 2013, 03:21:16 PM
Well, that's easy for you to say. It's my job to think about their fun as well, though
Fair point. Although I don't see how you're going to increase the fun of players who essentially aren't doing anything to help themselves. If there are people who are bored but aren't plotting, rebelling, trying to start a war, actively in a war, looking for a more interesting realm, or experimenting with classes, it seems like they're not really even using the existing features of the game. Perhaps they're bored of the game, rather than a particular realm?
The point Buffalkill just made is a good one too, although that's also a major cause of boredom. For example, a duke in a 30 region realm who's bored but feels the identity of his character won't let him leave or make a secession, and he also doesn't want to lose his title and all that lovely gold.
I think it was Anaris who also said a while back that realms can be in a war and still be as boring as hell. I think that's another good point, and also suggests why a boredom guage would be essentially pointless. A blanket "I'm bored" vote can conceal far too much to get any meaningful outcome - "I'm bored because we're not at war". "I'm bored because we're in the wrong war". "I'm bored because we're losing the war, sitting in the capital, and the enemy won't make peace." "I'm bored, but I don't want to lose my lordship, so I'm not moving". Or even, "I'm bored of the game, but habit keeps me logging in".
You get the picture... there are so many possibilities concealed in a simple "I'm bored" vote that it will make any data collected meaningless and virtually impossible to interpret. It's completely possible that a realm is voted boring, so the ruler starts a war, and then the realm is still voted boring during the war. Or
visa versa if the realm is in a war and then moves to peace.
But if the reformed version of this idea is simply to use it as a consequence-free tool for Devs to collect vague information on where new features (for example) could be implemented to increase enjoyment during certain cycles of gameplay, then fair enough. As a tool for rulers or players, it's pointless because the data that would be collected wouldn't be specific enough.
Quote from: Anaris on September 03, 2013, 03:35:32 PM
I don't see there being any reason to have a default at all.
I do. Ratings are temporary. People will forget about them.
If we make 3 the default value, we can simple move all votes towards that, slowly. Like, say, 0.1 points per week. So if someone rates his realm a 5, that'll last for 20 weeks or so.
People WILL forget to update their ratings.
The other alternative is to keep track of the age and weigh the ratings by age.
Quote from: Tom on September 03, 2013, 05:20:55 PM
I do. Ratings are temporary. People will forget about them.
If we make 3 the default value, we can simple move all votes towards that, slowly. Like, say, 0.1 points per week. So if someone rates his realm a 5, that'll last for 20 weeks or so.
People WILL forget to update their ratings.
The other alternative is to keep track of the age and weigh the ratings by age.
The latter was more what I was thinking—don't fade toward a default, fade toward no rating at all.
But the former could work, too.
Quote from: Foxglove on September 03, 2013, 03:11:19 PM
I just can't get my head around the idea of why players are going to vote to say their own realm is boring
There have been a few notable times when I would have used this mechanic to vote a realm as boring. Two, maybe three times, tops, in the past 7.5 years. I think quite a few of my votes would have been a "meh".
Note that I'm still not convinced this is a good idea that will actually do anything, but so long as it doesn't actually carry any IC/IG penalties, I don't see the harm in trying it.
Quoteand possibly bring down negative effects (if implemented), rather than trying to make the realm more interesting themselves or moving.
There are times when you try to make the change, and you just can't do it. Too much inertia. Too much power ossification among the ranks. Too much apathy.
QuoteOr for those who would join a realm to have a voting tool to damage a realm they dislike or have some grudge against.
Abuse is possible, if there is any actual IC/IG penalty associated with the rating. I assume it would take a concerted effort by several characters to make it possible. And then at that point, you'd have to just assume that they would have enough people to actually make a significant change in the realm, and possibly take control anyway. If there are no IC/IG penalties, then you'd have to assume that they the possible abusers would have to be very incompetent, and ineffectual, griefers.
I'm a bit into statistics, so here's what my thought is on how this should play out.
Do it the same way Amazon is doing it. Display an average in the overview, and then the number of votes for each rating in a bar graph. This will quickly reveal ballot stuffing and give interested players a very good impression. If some people think the realm is great and some think it sucks, it's likely that the realm is being controlled by a group of players who are having all the fun. If votes are distributed evenly, it's more egalitarian.
In most of the statistics I have done publicly, I have always insisted on publishing the actual numbers in addition to averages.
Quote from: Indirik on September 03, 2013, 06:12:30 PM
Abuse is possible, if there is any actual IC/IG penalty associated with the rating. I assume it would take a concerted effort by several characters to make it possible. And then at that point, you'd have to just assume that they would have enough people to actually make a significant change in the realm, and possibly take control anyway. If there are no IC/IG penalties, then you'd have to assume that they the possible abusers would have to be very incompetent, and ineffectual, griefers.
Very unlikely. It implies a level of cooperation that griefers are incapable of. And way too much effort with no payoff. You'd need a lot of co-conspirators because each vote by itself is a drop in the bucket. There'd be nothing for them to gain, and everyone would know what they were up to. Think about it, if your realm is consistently at around 4.5/5 and then, out of the blue, 20 chars from Realm B join up and the score drops to 3/5, you don't need to be a detective. If that actually happens, give them a nice little 'slow clap' and say,
"Congratulations guys, you went to all that trouble to move the needle a little bit. You're now officially oxygen thieves. Do you like apples?" Then, give them a knee to the groin and say,
"How do you like them apples?" You'll be having so much fun that the metre will immediately go up to 6/5 and then shatter in a beautiful explosion that covers you in glittery stardust.
Quote from: Buffalkill on September 03, 2013, 08:23:01 PM
Very unlikely. It implies a level of cooperation that griefers are incapable of.
Have you met some of the griefers we've had over the years?
Quote from: Tom on September 03, 2013, 06:45:29 PM
I'm a bit into statistics, so here's what my thought is on how this should play out.
Do it the same way Amazon is doing it. Display an average in the overview, and then the number of votes for each rating in a bar graph. This will quickly reveal ballot stuffing and give interested players a very good impression. If some people think the realm is great and some think it sucks, it's likely that the realm is being controlled by a group of players who are having all the fun. If votes are distributed evenly, it's more egalitarian.
In most of the statistics I have done publicly, I have always insisted on publishing the actual numbers in addition to averages.
ooo... bad idea.
Well, bad idea with low numbers. I'd say publish it as "Less than 4" then publish numbers above 4. Or 3, or 5, or something like that. See my point here? Making it so that maybe ONE person has cast their vote for something carries identification problems. It makes an anonymous system no longer anonymous.
Quote from: Vellos on September 04, 2013, 02:53:22 AM
Well, bad idea with low numbers. I'd say publish it as "Less than 4" then publish numbers above 4. Or 3, or 5, or something like that. See my point here? Making it so that maybe ONE person has cast their vote for something carries identification problems. It makes an anonymous system no longer anonymous.
I thought that was obvious. Every location using this system (the Apple App Store also uses it, for example) displays a "not enough ratings" blurb for low numbers.
Amazon doesn't.
Quote from: Tom on September 04, 2013, 09:14:47 AM
I thought that was obvious. Every location using this system (the Apple App Store also uses it, for example) displays a "not enough ratings" blurb for low numbers.
Sounds good then.