Sanguis Astroism

[Vellos]

I just thought I'd open a thread for the elephant in the room.

How about we redirect all discussions about byzantine Astroist feuds, as well as complaints against Astroism in general, to this thread?

[songqu88@gmail.com]

Woohoo! So what's with Mathurin coming back after being paused all this time?

[Adriddae]

Please direct all complaints to consumer affairs,

Thank you.

[Indirik]

How about praise for Sanguis Astroism? Do I have to open a new thread for that? 

I'll just say that Sanguis Astroism is the only religion in BattleMaster that has ever really piqued my interest. I don't think any other one has managed to come up with as compelling a religion. And it really has nothing to do with the depth of theology, either. In fact, I think it's quite the opposite. The fact that it is not all written down and set in stone probably has a lot to do with it. There's a feeling that people can contribute and make their mark on things. Rather than have everything carved in stone and handed down from on high, individual players can generally feel like they can help shape the evolution of the theology. So, there's no creation mythos? Feel free to write it, and then we can all get together and debate it. Is there an afterlife among the Stars? Who know. Why don't you write your own interpretation of the Prophet's words and present it to the members for debate. I think that provides for a much better player atmosphere than those religions where one person sits down and writes everything and then tells you what you should believe.

[Chenier]

How about praise for Sanguis Astroism? Do I have to open a new thread for that? 

I'll just say that Sanguis Astroism is the only religion in BattleMaster that has ever really piqued my interest. I don't think any other one has managed to come up with as compelling a religion. And it really has nothing to do with the depth of theology, either. In fact, I think it's quite the opposite. The fact that it is not all written down and set in stone probably has a lot to do with it. There's a feeling that people can contribute and make their mark on things. Rather than have everything carved in stone and handed down from on high, individual players can generally feel like they can help shape the evolution of the theology. So, there's no creation mythos? Feel free to write it, and then we can all get together and debate it. Is there an afterlife among the Stars? Who know. Why don't you write your own interpretation of the Prophet's words and present it to the members for debate. I think that provides for a much better player atmosphere than those religions where one person sits down and writes everything and then tells you what you should believe.

Since this relates more to the religion thread than SA itself, tell me... If they can discuss about creation mythos and the afterlife, *do they*?

[Indirik]

It has briefly been touched on once or twice. No one has really delved into the issue much. My character personally believes that there really was never a time before the Stars existed. They we're always there in the sky, and they always will be in the sky. There never was a "before".

And again touching on the generic religion side of things, does it really matter? We're talking about a game here, not theological dissertations. Does it matter if your in game religion is something that can be studied by cultural anthropologists? First and foremost, it has to be fun for the players. And from what I can see, SA is amazingly successful at that. Even if we don't have a legend that explains how the world was created. (That none cares about, and probably doesn't even know exists anyway.)

[Glaumring the Fox]

Agreed, lay a framework and then allow the player to build from it.

[De-Legro]

Lore is a good read, and can be interesting. However no amount of Lore will make a religion appealing to players on its own. It certainly can be a good tool for making a religion interesting, and great recruitment tool, but unless you've got dedicated players, lively discussion, a way for everyone to feel like they contribute and a long term goal(s), the religion is likely to fail. A successful religion can exist without deep Lore quite easily, and the same goes for realms really.

[Chenier]

Agreed, lay a framework and then allow the player to build from it.

But they won't.

And religions remain fuzzy concepts without even fundamental mythos.

And then we wonder why nobody takes religions seriously?

[Glaumring the Fox]

Aye, no one takes religion seriously, thats why there is the current tensions between religions that is shaping Dwilight, nations rise and fall according to the whims of the stars and elements of the earth. Perhaps it is you that do not take the religions of Dwilight seriously... I see religion as a serious way to shape the world,whether it be spiritual or the mechanisms of man and their devious ways. Power over man or the power of god.

I have added to Sanguis Astroism in my own way by bringing in a physical aspect to the stars, its not popular and only a few people have talked about it or indulged in roleplay about it, but I invented the 'Bloodmoon' fruit. Which can be read up on the wiki if anyone is interested.  The main core of Astroism is stable and static, but there is lots of small things that can be added around its central idea. I am not asking for Bloodmoon to be added to the church, but the idea does infect and change thinking. I noticed that many religions are mostly about ephemeral things. I decided that perhaps the physical world needed something that could bring about the spirit world, just like peyote or other fauna drugs out there in the real world. Anyways, just one example.

[Shenron]

I don't know too much about SA, but I'll say this. It's the first religion I've seen to seriously mobilise such a huge political force. It's so exciting! I play a southern noble in Dwilight and the thought of a huge SA empire in the north is very freaky. I love it. Adds a lot of flavour to BM.

[Hossenfeffer]

Agreed, lay a framework and then allow the player to build from it.

What ho everyone!

This, from Glaumring, is exactly what I tried to do with SA.  Jesse laid the foundations for the religion and named the three stars, then left it to me to shape as I chose.  But I didn't want to be the one to shape it, or at least not on my own.  I didn't want to spend a month or two writing a religion, then present it wrapped up in pretty paper as a fait accompli.  Besides, Dwilight is young, and the colonists are still fresh to the land.  They shouldn't have an age-old religion.  SA is supposed to be being worked out, it's a new religion in character as well as out of character.

But perhaps I should start putting down some more building blocks, and announcing a view on such things as an origin myth, life after death and so on.  I'd be interested in hearing opinions on that from people.

[Indirik]

But they won't.

They have in SA. We've had several people make rather large contributions to the theology of SA.

And religions remain fuzzy concepts without even fundamental mythos.

What's wrong with a little bit of fuzz? Trying to nail down everything, and carve it in stone is, I feel, one of the biggest mistakes that people make in religion in BattleMaster. If you define /everything/, and write everything about the faith, all their beliefs, their mythos, their history, etc., then what's left for me to contribute to it? Everything that defines the entire faith is handed to me, and I'm told exactly what my character believes.

From an RL religious perspective, that makes sense. But from a game-player perspective, it's hard to get involved and enthusiastic about something that is entirely the product of someone else's imagination. Why do you think all those well-defined, highly detailed religions are flops?

And then we wonder why nobody takes religions seriously?

Nobody takes SA seriously? Meh... if you want to think so, then that's fine. The coalition of realms that have signed anti-SA treaties disagrees with you.

[Chenier]

Aye, no one takes religion seriously, thats why there is the current tensions between religions that is shaping Dwilight, nations rise and fall according to the whims of the stars and elements of the earth. Perhaps it is you that do not take the religions of Dwilight seriously... I see religion as a serious way to shape the world,whether it be spiritual or the mechanisms of man and their devious ways. Power over man or the power of god.

I have added to Sanguis Astroism in my own way by bringing in a physical aspect to the stars, its not popular and only a few people have talked about it or indulged in roleplay about it, but I invented the 'Bloodmoon' fruit. Which can be read up on the wiki if anyone is interested.  The main core of Astroism is stable and static, but there is lots of small things that can be added around its central idea. I am not asking for Bloodmoon to be added to the church, but the idea does infect and change thinking. I noticed that many religions are mostly about ephemeral things. I decided that perhaps the physical world needed something that could bring about the spirit world, just like peyote or other fauna drugs out there in the real world. Anyways, just one example.

I derailed the topic, so forgive me for this. I wasn't talking about SA specifically. And no, I don't consider SA as a religion is taken seriously. As an organization, yes, but the religion part of it? Not really.

[Perth]

Why do you think all those well-defined, highly detailed religions are flops?

Like which ones?

Not disagreeing here, just curious.