Author Topic: Sanguis Astroism  (Read 1033361 times)

Dishman

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3720: February 07, 2014, 01:10:29 AM »
Roleplaying should happen. I mean in the one RP Enoch sent out mentioned him being all kinds of corrupt, and if that had actually happened - roleplays previously indicating that - then it wouldn't seem like a cheap play. It would have been an interesting story. People could have gotten into it. Players could have been involved. Things would have turned out the same but it would have been less "controversial" and a lot more interesting for a lot more people. I mean what we coulda had there is basically a Mad King scenario, but it wound up being utterly wasted. Referenced after the fact.  I don't consider that how the game should be played, let alone an example of the game being played so well that everyone else just, I guess, sucks in comparison?

I did this. I got booted, took a day or two to prepare some RP, then RP'd how/why and gave secrets and details. Did you quit the church immediately after booting me?

It is not a rule that says you can't use RP to achieve things that the mechanics don't specifically support. It exists to allow disagreements to be resolved in those cases. As soon as you move into RP structures, you open the system to risk from people that will use the mechanics to upset it, as we have seen with the charter.

The charter itself was a RP work around for unimplemented mechanics. The charter was condoned by the Prophet. Mathurin could have kicked you all out, and it would have been mechanic and RP sensible. Everyone damn near worshiped the prophet, the Regent was his second, Regent primes the flock during it's defeat for a new leader to fill that hole....does that not make sense? The prophet gone, there is a power vacuum. The top-down structure of the church was built for this.

I admit, some forewarning would have eased a lot of tempers. I expected mad, but not the degree I've seen. Though, if I had came forward with this to people....wouldn't we be in the same position? I'm not sure if I would gave my character's plots away, returned the church, and dumped future plans because people would get mad I disrupted the charter?




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De-Legro

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3721: February 07, 2014, 01:52:18 AM »
I did this. I got booted, took a day or two to prepare some RP, then RP'd how/why and gave secrets and details. Did you quit the church immediately after booting me?

The charter itself was a RP work around for unimplemented mechanics. The charter was condoned by the Prophet. Mathurin could have kicked you all out, and it would have been mechanic and RP sensible. Everyone damn near worshiped the prophet, the Regent was his second, Regent primes the flock during it's defeat for a new leader to fill that hole....does that not make sense? The prophet gone, there is a power vacuum. The top-down structure of the church was built for this.

I admit, some forewarning would have eased a lot of tempers. I expected mad, but not the degree I've seen. Though, if I had came forward with this to people....wouldn't we be in the same position? I'm not sure if I would gave my character's plots away, returned the church, and dumped future plans because people would get mad I disrupted the charter?

That is my point. People made a RP structure with the charter. If we let RP trump mechanics likely your action would have to be ruled invalid since you used a game mechanic to trump a pre-existing and agreed upon RP structure.
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pcw27

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3722: February 07, 2014, 02:42:36 AM »
Like Tim said, realms tend to have more safeguards because they are viewed as the most important grouping. But they are not immune. What if you are a single duchy realm, the one in question was on FEI. What if nearly every noble is away on a war so Lords and Dukes are too far away to take much action?

Of course once you have banned almost everyone then what, you potentially don't have the nobles to even have a Lord for every region, but if your goal is to destroy or severely hurt the realm what do you care? Even if you have a structure that can split off and fight against the mad King, if you already have conflicts going, and those opponents decide to press the advantage what then?

Even in that scenario there's still a recourse. The lords who are in realm can change allegiance to an allied realm or even an enemy. The lords who are away can also defect and join a realm willing to help them take back their lands from the mad king. The enemy realm will probably like the idea of backing the exiles in order to turn their enemy into an ally.

The biggest difference here is the land itself is still there and can be recovered. A few realms on Dwilight have been completely destroyed but then players conquered the previous lands and restored the old name.

The religion takeover has no such recourse. We can't march armies into the temples to take them back. In real life this would be possible but the game has no such mechanic.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2014, 02:47:52 AM by pcw27 »

De-Legro

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3723: February 07, 2014, 02:50:34 AM »
Even in that scenario there's still a recourse. The lords who are in realm can change allegiance to an allied realm or even an enemy. The lords who are away can also defect and join a realm willing to help them take back their lands from the mad king. The enemy realm will probably like the idea of backing the exiles in order to turn their enemy into an ally.

The biggest difference here is the land itself is still there and can be recovered. A few realms on Dwilight have been completely destroyed but then players conquered the previous lands and restored the old name.

The religion takeover has no such recourse. We can't march armies into the temples to take them back. In real life this would be possible but the game has no such mechanic.

You seem to equate recourse with restoring the status quo. You are not really asking for a way to strike back, what you are asking for is a way to rid yourself of the regent, preferably with no damage or easily repairable damage to the religion. While that is a recourse, it is certainly only a single option.
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pcw27

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3724: February 07, 2014, 03:08:07 AM »
You seem to equate recourse with restoring the status quo. You are not really asking for a way to strike back, what you are asking for is a way to rid yourself of the regent, preferably with no damage or easily repairable damage to the religion. While that is a recourse, it is certainly only a single option.

No a way to strike back is precisely what I'm asking for, nice try though. Right now we have literally none short of convincing every realm on the continent to ban Jonsu so we can eventually catch and execute her.

The damage to the religion should be proportionate to the number of people working in opposition to the new regent verses the number supporting.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2014, 03:09:57 AM by pcw27 »

Chenier

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3725: February 07, 2014, 03:11:01 AM »
Medals mean nothing. The game has gone for very large periods of time between new medal handouts. As such, they are concentrated in a few hands, and one's number of medals has more to do with playing where people have medals than one's worth or contributions.

Also, I'd like to add another example  of how having power does not mean we can use it in any way: bans. You can't just ban people at random. It's against the rules. Not sure where it can be found anymore, I think it was on the ban help page.

The thing is, the rules and policies are incomplete by nature. They weren't all there when the game first opened. People had to rely a lot more on the social contract. Then people did stuff that was commonly agreed to be abusive, and rules were made ad hoc. With the years, the rules and policies grew lengthier.

Just because something was never done before doesn't make it okay. You are right that there would be no way to make game mechanics to prevent the kind of thing that happened. But that doesn't make it okay either. There is no way we can do game mechanics to prevent strategic secessions either, or to prevent realms from organizing infil attacks to harvest their own bounties, or to duel for sport. "Do not attempt to take over a religion with the sole intention of harming it" could very much be one of them too.

'cause I'm fine with people infiltrating religions and attempting to undermine it from within. Putting public enemies in the top rank and getting all of the elders and their supporters demoted and/or kicked out and reforming the whole structure and theology of a religion in a matter of an hour, however, I am not fine with.
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De-Legro

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3726: February 07, 2014, 03:47:24 AM »
No a way to strike back is precisely what I'm asking for, nice try though. Right now we have literally none short of convincing every realm on the continent to ban Jonsu so we can eventually catch and execute her.

The damage to the religion should be proportionate to the number of people working in opposition to the new regent verses the number supporting.

Of course you do, all leave the religion at the very simplest. At the more complex you refound it. Palatable options, perhaps not. Options for recourse yes indeed they are.
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Indirik

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3727: February 07, 2014, 03:58:11 AM »
Hell, Enoch could have just destroyed SA himself by demoting all the elder priests!
Umm... that wouldn't have had any effect on anything.
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Indirik

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3728: February 07, 2014, 04:00:28 AM »
Not if he appoints a judge that bans you first. Which is possible, depending on your government type, I believe.
There is a cool-down period for new judges. There is a two-or-three day waiting period before a newly appointed judge can ban/unban nobles.

There is no such limit with guilds/religions. Newly appointed elders have immediate access to all of their powers.

Also, guild actions do not require you to use time-pool hours to perform actions, unlike realm bans which take an hour each.
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Anaris

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3729: February 07, 2014, 04:17:54 AM »
Umm... that wouldn't have had any effect on anything.

A religion with no elder priests will begin to collapse. It wouldn't take long, either.
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Vellos

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3730: February 07, 2014, 04:19:52 AM »
A religion with no elder priests will begin to collapse. It wouldn't take long, either.

Except a priest will get auto-promoted, won't they? There's only collapse if no priest can be auto-promoted I thought.
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dustole

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3731: February 07, 2014, 04:27:35 AM »
I thought auto promotion was if there were no Elders.
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De-Legro

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3732: February 07, 2014, 04:30:15 AM »
I thought auto promotion was if there were no Elders.

Same, but I haven't checked.
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Anaris

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3733: February 07, 2014, 04:51:29 AM »
I thought auto promotion was if there were no Elders.

That is correct.
Timothy Collett

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Daycryn

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Re: Sanguis Astroism
« Reply #3734: February 07, 2014, 06:14:20 AM »
Fun is subjective. If my realm kills yours, it is fair to say they we are probably having fun, and you are likely not.

I never thought that way. I guess I'm in a minority.

Quote from: Dishman
I did this. I got booted, took a day or two to prepare some RP, then RP'd how/why and gave secrets and details. Did you quit the church immediately after booting me?

I did delete Rabisu not too long after.  But the RP should have come before is what I'm saying, not afterward.
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