Zuma/Daimons

[Andrew]

I've got this totally crazy idea. Officially make Dwilight the island of "The GMs are here, and they have their own factions" and toss in another GM faction over in Balance's Retreat. Could make them undead or monsters, and then you could have the entire island involved in the "The GMs are too powerful" whining.

Honeslty though, GM controlled Undead in Balance's Retreat would be really fitting for the area if you ask me. All those mountains and the stronghold, it'd be really neat imo. The area is barely usable for anything else, and it'd make for an amusing buffer between the Lurias and Morek.

[MaleMaldives]

Your own realm members disagree here.

Doesn't mean that. Because I can think of reasons why, and they would all because the Zuma were being dumb and overreacting. Just reasons don't make them good ones.

[MaleMaldives]

Plus that still doesn't mean that we weren't talking about how we don't want them to attack us.

[Vellos]

I'll comment on a few things of mixed importance.

1. Somebody threw in a crack about Evangelical Christians. I would personally rather my own faith tradition were not used as a term signifying ignorance or stupidity.

2. The recent crisis was exacerbated by the message bug. Not being able to communicate with each other until the Zuma had ROTFLstomped half of our army was a bummer. I get it, yeah, you play through bugs... but the GM doesn't need to communicate to be effective. Furthermore, it deprived me of my opportunity to offend Haktoo again, and I really wanted to do it.

3. De-Legro: I think you need to be quiet. I don't say that in an angry way. I really don't But I think you would be well served by taking a step back and looking at, say, which players seem to like the Zuma as they are currently played, and which ones don't. The degree of satisfaction with the Zuma seems inversely related to the degree of actual meaningful contact with the Zuma.

4. It was asked how the Zuma could be improved. Somebody jokingly mentioned putting, Chenier, the current, GM, and myself all as GMs in one real. Yes. Do it. Well, not us specifically, but that's what the Zuma need: multiple, disagreeing, conflicted GMs. A GM faction that has similar problems to normal factions. Notably, this is how the Zuma were originally set up. The 1-GM (apparently) is not original to Dwilight. I think much of the problem would be solved if we had, say, 4 GMs.

5. I understand how Haktoo could get upset over the Triunist Zuma, kind of. Except I will note that anyone who says the Zuma actually worship the daimons is wrong. They don't. There is no Zuma religion. Even "Paganism" is almost nonexistent in Zuma lands. They are Elementalists, Triunists, Astroists... there is a little bit of Cordatus Bestiarium, which I guess worships the daimons or something, but they're a tiny minority. Any RP by the Zuma GM stating that the Zuma worship the daimons is directly falsified by simple game mechanics. Most of Zumaland is 70+% Triunist. So please, don't tell me this is the first Haktoo knew about this. The Zuma haven't worshipped the daimons in years.

6. Once I worked through frustration with the message system, figuring out this recent crisis wasn't hard. Hell, I intentionally provoked it. The Zuma make me bored. My plan for the Maroccidens was finished as soon as the Zuma decided to make the thing with Barca something more than "Give us food and an apology and we'll go away." Justw asn't going to happen. ICly, Hireshmont is very nearly a broken man. OOCly, I'm a bored player. So I decided to do the only logical thing: start pushing random buttons to see what happens. I didn't expect this big of a response quite this fast (and I didn't expect Haktoo to refuse to RP with the two ambassadors from Terran sent to meet him: this is hearsay, but they report Haktoo has being nonresponsive. Could be mistaken.), but I expected something to happen. I hardly even care what. But I don't really feel like sitting around preaching to peasants in Terran. I no longer believe it will be possible to achieve the things I wanted to with Hireshmont, so I've set new goals.

7. I will reiterate what MaleMaldives said: I can think of reasons for the Zuma to attack us. Heck, it's a mystery to me how they haven't found way more reasons to attack us than they have. But... just because I can think of things that might have provoked the Zuma doesn't mean I think it's justified. I had a pretty good idea sending Zuma Triunist monks as messengers would get the daimons all riled up. Because I know that the Zuma GM is a wee bit trigger happy. That doesn't mean I think that's a reasonable response; it just means it's a response that I could expect.

They could have been stopped. Force of arms is probably not the best way, but there was certainly scope for things to have gone very differently. The difference between what happened in Terran and Barca, and say what nearly happened in Iashalur and Kabrinskia should show that there are ways to resolve things even after the Zuma start to gear up.

This is laughable, by the way. Like, literally, I laughed.

Yes, if the Zuma have to march for, like, two weeks to get to you, there is room to resolve things other ways.

I'm sorry, De-Legro, I really think you need to take a step back. You aren't around the Zuma. How on earth are you so adamant about an issue with which you have so little contact, and concerning which you have so little knowledge? I don't go and argue Lurian politics, do I?

[songqu88@gmail.com]

I actually like some things that Vellos wrote, though I can see some things are said in ignorance. And actually, it stems from the same problems that messed up 4th Inv on BT: You guys don't ask enough of each other.

I've said really clearly before that the Zuma's life is the daimons, that their faith is nothing of the form any human has seen, and that they really really do NOT want to preach their religions to the Zuma or bad stuff will happen. Funny how people forget the words of some insignificant human. Hm...that might be part of the daimons' plans actually...To get you to distrust Garret so that you keep screwing up. Dude, Garret gives solid advice. Usually what I've observed is that people distrust Garret or otherwise don't like him, so they do something that's not what he said, or they completely misinterpret what Garret wrote. Sure, it's not really that direct. What, you think I'll just go and say "Do this...and you're clear"? No, just how long do you think it took ME to figure out how to possibly survive a little among daimons? Like hell I'm going to just out and say "Hey follow me!" Because I am most certainly NOT on the humans' side, and I have no incentive to tell you in any simple way how to do things unless the daimons specifically ask me to. In those cases I sometimes just repeat their words pretty much verbatim.

Anyway, back to the part I liked about Vellos' post: The part where his plans for the Marroccidens was ruined or something.

Remember the whole thing about relocating? Look, at least you guys are still alive. You want to know what happened to, say, Thulsoma? Caerwyn? Everguard? And those were all eliminated by human realms.

Let's check...How many realms have the Zuma actually destroyed? My last count: 0.

So uh...I guess those guys from the actually destroyed realms are pretty miffed. Er, well, nothing to do about that, huh, since you know, in some cases they just got overwhelmed by a much stronger human force.

Now what, pray tell, is so really really really worthwhile about the location of the midwest that you really really really have to play there? But more importantly, I've noticed that in the past few months, Terran and Asylon (Well in Asylon's case, just their ruler was being stupid, and one of their dukes was apparently informed by a daimon why the king was being idiotic) have been being really dumb in their interactions.

Can I not suggest, Vellos, you also making Hireshmont step back, if you really want to reclaim a semblance of control over the situation? Reassess what you have been doing. Stop being so...dumb. You've shown yourself to be capable of intelligent work with the Zuma before, but recently it looks like you're getting reckless.

[Perth]

I've said really clearly before that the Zuma's life is the daimons, that their faith is nothing of the form any human has seen, and that they really really do NOT want to preach their religions to the Zuma or bad stuff will happen.

This:

 

5. I understand how Haktoo could get upset over the Triunist Zuma, kind of. Except I will note that anyone who says the Zuma actually worship the daimons is wrong. They don't. There is no Zuma religion. Even "Paganism" is almost nonexistent in Zuma lands. They are Elementalists, Triunists, Astroists... there is a little bit of Cordatus Bestiarium, which I guess worships the daimons or something, but they're a tiny minority. Any RP by the Zuma GM stating that the Zuma worship the daimons is directly falsified by simple game mechanics. Most of Zumaland is 70+% Triunist. So please, don't tell me this is the first Haktoo knew about this. The Zuma haven't worshipped the daimons in years.

[De-Legro]

I'll comment on a few things of mixed importance.

1. Somebody threw in a crack about Evangelical Christians. I would personally rather my own faith tradition were not used as a term signifying ignorance or stupidity.

Yeah I did. I'm also a Deacon of my local church. Doesn't detract from the fact that the majority of evangelical movements love to pick and choose bible verses, and present them with little or no context

3. De-Legro: I think you need to be quiet. I don't say that in an angry way. I really don't But I think you would be well served by taking a step back and looking at, say, which players seem to like the Zuma as they are currently played, and which ones don't. The degree of satisfaction with the Zuma seems inversely related to the degree of actual meaningful contact with the Zuma.

That doesn't make my opinion less valid, just that like all things it needs to be taken in context. Want to have a whine thread only for those that play near the Zuma, sure do that, just don't do it on the public forums and expect that no one else may post their opinion.

4. It was asked how the Zuma could be improved. Somebody jokingly mentioned putting, Chenier, the current, GM, and myself all as GMs in one real. Yes. Do it. Well, not us specifically, but that's what the Zuma need: multiple, disagreeing, conflicted GMs. A GM faction that has similar problems to normal factions. Notably, this is how the Zuma were originally set up. The 1-GM (apparently) is not original to Dwilight. I think much of the problem would be solved if we had, say, 4 GMs.

That would be nice, problem has always been finding people that are committed, who a trust able and who have the time. The committed issue is a big one, the Zuma are a multi year project, few people seem willing to commit to the time frame given the decided lack of any rewards.

I'm sorry, De-Legro, I really think you need to take a step back. You aren't around the Zuma. How on earth are you so adamant about an issue with which you have so little contact, and concerning which you have so little knowledge? I don't go and argue Lurian politics, do I?

For all you know Juan is bestest buds with Garret, or even possibly a Zuma lord and gets constant updates. The wonderful thing about instant contienent wide messaging, is it works for GM factions as well. Or you could assume that I have quite a few OOC contacts that provide me with a good view of what is going on. It even possible that since I was part of a plan to invade D'Hara at one point that we established spies through the Moot lands to further that agenda. Amazingly enough sometimes it is possible to be better informed about these thing even with the tyranny of distance.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

This:

Uh, dude...not every single peasant that wanders into Zuma lands is a Zuma...

To expand on this a little, from what I can tell, the Zuma are inextricably bound to the daimons. If they break the "magical" bond they die, or something. That being said, there are peasants who move through Zuma lands (duh, new migration code?) but that doesn't mean they are Zuma.

An example in real life is for you to go to a foreign country. Just because you're there does not make you one of them. Then let's say you marry a native and have a kid. That kid would be mixed, and not necessarily have the same other values. Some cultures in this world probably have something like that (And since I'm no anthropologist or related human studies field, I shall refrain from going further here)

Then what if you preach to the Zuma? From what I can tell, they would categorically refuse your words. Stop thinking that the Zuma are just normal people you can talk to like normal. They have been bound to the daimons, serving them for like, hundreds of generations already. And most of all, you will notice that some of those daimon units are called "Zuma". Wonder for a moment at the significance of that.

So don't impose your thoughts on what is true. You can go ahead and try to RP whatever you want in the game. And Vellos has, regarding those "Zuma". But OOC, understand that it's not necessarily true at all, that there's the whole legacy to respect (or disrespect). Human realms sometimes cite ancient kingdoms as their basis. The Zuma are intended to be an established "ancient civilization". You can try to make it suit your tastes, but as well, you should accept that this is a two-way street. It sounds a lot like you're forgetting that a little here.

Anything you do, someone will respond to. And the response will not always be to your liking, just like how your actions might not be to their liking.

[Zuma GM]

2. The recent crisis was exacerbated by the message bug. Not being able to communicate with each other until the Zuma had ROTFLstomped half of our army was a bummer. I get it, yeah, you play through bugs... but the GM doesn't need to communicate to be effective. Furthermore, it deprived me of my opportunity to offend Haktoo again, and I really wanted to do it.

Yes, the recent message bug did cause some issues. I was unable to respond to the ambassadors when I would have liked to. This should be happening shortly. Also, due to the communication issue I did not continue the action as intended. one returned to my land, the other just progresses slowly.

4. It was asked how the Zuma could be improved. Somebody jokingly mentioned putting, Chenier, the current, GM, and myself all as GMs in one real. Yes. Do it. Well, not us specifically, but that's what the Zuma need: multiple, disagreeing, conflicted GMs. A GM faction that has similar problems to normal factions. Notably, this is how the Zuma were originally set up. The 1-GM (apparently) is not original to Dwilight. I think much of the problem would be solved if we had, say, 4 GMs.

That is not how the Zuma were originally set up. They were originally set up with just one GM, me. The other one joined a while later, after a lot of OOC discussion in the game and my request to then have them officially involved.

5. I understand how Haktoo could get upset over the Triunist Zuma, kind of. Except I will note that anyone who says the Zuma actually worship the daimons is wrong. They don't. There is no Zuma religion. Even "Paganism" is almost nonexistent in Zuma lands. They are Elementalists, Triunists, Astroists... there is a little bit of Cordatus Bestiarium, which I guess worships the daimons or something, but they're a tiny minority. Any RP by the Zuma GM stating that the Zuma worship the daimons is directly falsified by simple game mechanics. Most of Zumaland is 70+% Triunist. So please, don't tell me this is the first Haktoo knew about this. The Zuma haven't worshipped the daimons in years.

If you want me to create an in game religion to actually cover this I can, though then I would probably be accused of ruining the hard work of some people to get the influence of religion that they have in a number of regions. As has been covered in RP within the game, the agreement with SA from a short time ago for example, acknowledgement is given and there is no exclusion to other religions. This does not mean that the Zuma humans do not and cannot worship the Daimons as well.

6. Once I worked through frustration with the message system, figuring out this recent crisis wasn't hard. Hell, I intentionally provoked it. The Zuma make me bored. My plan for the Maroccidens was finished as soon as the Zuma decided to make the thing with Barca something more than "Give us food and an apology and we'll go away." Justw asn't going to happen. ICly, Hireshmont is very nearly a broken man. OOCly, I'm a bored player. So I decided to do the only logical thing: start pushing random buttons to see what happens. I didn't expect this big of a response quite this fast (and I didn't expect Haktoo to refuse to RP with the two ambassadors from Terran sent to meet him: this is hearsay, but they report Haktoo has being nonresponsive. Could be mistaken.), but I expected something to happen. I hardly even care what. But I don't really feel like sitting around preaching to peasants in Terran. I no longer believe it will be possible to achieve the things I wanted to with Hireshmont, so I've set new goals.

You intentionally provoked something that you know players within your realm do not want to happen. Other players within Terran, please make sure you read that and understand it. This was not some random act, this was your ruler intentionally doing as much as he could to ensure he would get a reaction. So can we lose the OOC bitterness about this and keep it IC instead.

The deal with Barca changed because a character in Barca chose to do something about it. The change was not something that I decided upon, it was instigated by a character in game. So it is a player character within the game that ruined your plans for the Maroccidens, not the Zuma.

I have already mentioned the lack of response to the ambassadors, it is not intentional, just bad timing. As for something 'this big', you have one character going to a location that (through an in game miscommunication) you requested him to go to. Use it to your advantage. Others have. Look at the recent offer that has been made to other realms (if you are aware of them, if not, it is not my place to mention any details).

Do you think you're being a bit selfish? You state that you are OOC bored so decided to stir up this action. Action that other players within your realm do not want to happen. Individuals within realms have started issues in the past, discussions with rulers have normally ensured that nothing happened from that. As a ruler character, you do not give the rest of your realm the chance to stop your actions having effect. It is partly your responsibility as ruler to help the realm have fun, and, from the reactions some of your realm mates have had in this thread, you are the cause of the things they complain about.

Yes, if the Zuma have to march for, like, two weeks to get to you, there is room to resolve things other ways.

Are Barca a two week march away?

[Vellos]

Yes, the recent message bug did cause some issues. I was unable to respond to the ambassadors when I would have liked to. This should be happening shortly. Also, due to the communication issue I did not continue the action as intended. one returned to my land, the other just progresses slowly.

I thought that might be the reason for the slowmarch to Chesney.

That is not how the Zuma were originally set up. They were originally set up with just one GM, me. The other one joined a while later, after a lot of OOC discussion in the game and my request to then have them officially involved.

My error. Still, I think multiple GMs would be a very good thing.

If you want me to create an in game religion to actually cover this I can, though then I would probably be accused of ruining the hard work of some people to get the influence of religion that they have in a number of regions. As has been covered in RP within the game, the agreement with SA from a short time ago for example, acknowledgement is given and there is no exclusion to other religions. This does not mean that the Zuma humans do not and cannot worship the Daimons as well.

Certainly the can.

But the game says they actually don't. You cannot be seriously saying there is some secret Zuma religion that was just never in the game until now. The game says that no such religion exists. It says they worship other things. This is textbook case of game mechanics trumping RP. If the game says they are Triunists, you cannot RP them as not being Triunists.

You intentionally provoked something that you know players within your realm do not want to happen. Other players within Terran, please make sure you read that and understand it. This was not some random act, this was your ruler intentionally doing as much as he could to ensure he would get a reaction. So can we lose the OOC bitterness about this and keep it IC instead.

Let's be clear. I didn't do this alone. I had over half a dozen players or characters in Terran contacting me or Hireshmont ICly and OOCly saying they were bored and wanted some action. We had a public, realm-wide discussion on the matter where everybody could chip in. The possible consequences were clearly explained.

The point, however, is that even our "best" option is vastly inferior to if the Zuma were less totalizing of a presence. Getting to choose whether you are killed by a horde of daimons or by the slow attrition of boredom and uninvolvement is not fun.

The deal with Barca changed because a character in Barca chose to do something about it. The change was not something that I decided upon, it was instigated by a character in game. So it is a player character within the game that ruined your plans for the Maroccidens, not the Zuma.

I know a player did it. But they could not have done it without the daimons. By virtue of being willing to play the GM, they were able to nullify any previous RPs or power structures that may have existed. Deus ex GMica.

I have already mentioned the lack of response to the ambassadors, it is not intentional, just bad timing. As for something 'this big', you have one character going to a location that (through an in game miscommunication) you requested him to go to. Use it to your advantage. Others have. Look at the recent offer that has been made to other realms (if you are aware of them, if not, it is not my place to mention any details).

Well of course we will try to use it to our advantage. Not saying we won't. But we might decide our advantage is to pretend like you are Overlord, and we live on Beluaterra. And then it will be Invasion-lite, like has been said the Zuma aren't supposed to be. If our characters ICly decide to go into "Invasion-mode," the only thing that will be able to separate the eastern part of Dwilight from Beluaterran-style play will be restraint by the GM. Not sure if our characters will have that response, it remains to be seen how the RPing turns out. But this is a problem with having so powerful a GM faction. You can't not be an overwhelming force around which all things revolve unless you intentionally restrict yourself and ameliorate your own strength, if other players decide to behave strategically.

Do you think you're being a bit selfish? You state that you are OOC bored so decided to stir up this action.

Selfish? We had a freaking vote about the matter. Almost every noble in Terran got a say in this, and support for our present course was practically unanimous. The complaints, IMHO, are not that we could not have expected a response like this, but that the existence of the Zuma as they presently are precludes the possibility of our pursuing any of the plotlines any of us would have liked to pursue.

Individuals within realms have started issues in the past, discussions with rulers have normally ensured that nothing happened from that. As a ruler character, you do not give the rest of your realm the chance to stop your actions having effect. It is partly your responsibility as ruler to help the realm have fun, and, from the reactions some of your realm mates have had in this thread, you are the cause of the things they complain about

Again, Hireshmont has not done anything in secret or without the full permission of Terran's Senate. You misunderstand the complaint.

Are Barca a two week march away?

And, to survive, they had to have every player that's been there investing in that realm for years stand aside and have the rulership put in the hands of someone trying to actively undermine an institution almost everyone else in the realm has been building up for literally years, and that individual was able to accomplish this by making their realm's direction contingent upon permission for actions from Garret Artemesia (like the whole thing with Flavia not joining the Moot until Garret told her to).

Again, Barca survived... and that doesn't make most of us optimistic about the Zuma's reasonability.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

I am suddenly reminded of the "live as a rat/die as a lion" proverb...

[Zuma GM]

My error. Still, I think multiple GMs would be a very good thing.

I agree. The problem is though, as already mentioned by others, long term retention. We have seen the problems caused by agreements that Vates apparently made with people but, as I knew nothing about them, can do nothing about them. It would be easy to get someone keen and eager to help out for a while. It's not so easy to ensure they will stay around and not just end up frustrating people by leaving things half done.

But the game says they actually don't. You cannot be seriously saying there is some secret Zuma religion that was just never in the game until now. The game says that no such religion exists. It says they worship other things. This is textbook case of game mechanics trumping RP. If the game says they are Triunists, you cannot RP them as not being Triunists.

The game says there are Triunists within Zuma regions. It does not say they are born and bred Zuma that have abandoned their entire upbringing in servitude to the Daimons by turning to another faith. As for some secret religion. You've seen the paganism comments, that talk about "Many people are finding more solitude in the old local faiths". The whole way the Zuma are run is based around very local things so if you really need game mechanics to justify some of what I state, use that. Alternatively, I could have started a religion as soon as the Zuma came into existence on Dwilight and spent real life years preaching all across the western continent before any players actually arrived. I'm sure there would have been plenty of complaints if people moved in to find religion already firmly established everywhere.

Let's be clear. I didn't do this alone. I had over half a dozen players or characters in Terran contacting me or Hireshmont ICly and OOCly saying they were bored and wanted some action. We had a public, realm-wide discussion on the matter where everybody could chip in. The possible consequences were clearly explained.

The point, however, is that even our "best" option is vastly inferior to if the Zuma were less totalizing of a presence. Getting to choose whether you are killed by a horde of daimons or by the slow attrition of boredom and uninvolvement is not fun.

So, you have been attacked once for a situation that you didn't bring about yourselves and which the Daimons left you alone as soon as reasonable doubt was placed on the evidence they were given that caused them to attack you.

The Daimons have done nothing to you unless you instigated it. You are the ones that have chosen to sit in boredom. No one has stopped you from doing anything else whatsoever. If you were that bothered you could always have asked what would happen if you were to do certain things. If you are not getting involved in things, that is you're own doing.

I know a player did it. But they could not have done it without the daimons. By virtue of being willing to play the GM, they were able to nullify any previous RPs or power structures that may have existed. Deus ex GMica.

And, to survive, they had to have every player that's been there investing in that realm for years stand aside and have the rulership put in the hands of someone trying to actively undermine an institution almost everyone else in the realm has been building up for literally years, and that individual was able to accomplish this by making their realm's direction contingent upon permission for actions from Garret Artemesia (like the whole thing with Flavia not joining the Moot until Garret told her to).

This was an alternative choice provided by a player character that meant the Daimons left there and then. From what I can tell, if they'd just waited a few days more, they'd have delivered all 4 items that were asked for and we'd have left anyway. It was an alternative option that was provided by a player character and agreed as another option. How does that nullify any previous RP? That previous RP would still exist, still have happened.

Every player that's invested time had to stand aside? I think you're being overly dramatic there. The agreement that they chose to take up (remembering that, waiting a few more days they could have stuck with the original one) just meant that Flavia needed to be their ruler. They could have just put her in there as a figurehead as far as I'm concerned, kept absolutely everything the same within their realm apart from the fact that the 'official' ruler was someone else. Yes, I'm aware of the mechanics that could be done to change everything by the ruler. Did she do that? As for Flavia not joining the Moot until Garret told her, this is the first I am aware of that. Nothing to do with the Zuma.

Selfish? We had a freaking vote about the matter. Almost every noble in Terran got a say in this, and support for our present course was practically unanimous. The complaints, IMHO, are not that we could not have expected a response like this, but that the existence of the Zuma as they presently are precludes the possibility of our pursuing any of the plotlines any of us would have liked to pursue.

Again, Hireshmont has not done anything in secret or without the full permission of Terran's Senate. You misunderstand the complaint.

Clearly I do. Who told all the people in your realm that you are not able to do anything because of the Zuma being there? Who made that assumption and then passed it off as fact? Who came and questioned this with the Zuma (either IC or OOC). I'm just running the Zuma, I do not see everything that goes on within each realm. If there are serious OOC concerns the way to address them are constructively, not just letting the resentment build up before having a hissy fit when it's almost too late to do anything to address the concerns.

Again, Barca survived... and that doesn't make most of us optimistic about the Zuma's reasonability.

What?

[vanKaya]

Yeah I did. I'm also a Deacon of my local church. Doesn't detract from the fact that the majority of evangelical movements love to pick and choose bible verses, and present them with little or no context

This is akin to saying that it's ok for me to say Jewish people are cheap, because, LOL, a majority of them are cheap.

It's using circular logic to reinforce stereotypes. You may not be a bigot, but by saying stuff like that you promote prejudices within our society. You haven't met the majority of evangelical movements so you don't have the authority to pass judgement on them. Isn't that what Jesus taught you Deacon?

Also, I can see there's no reason, for me at least, to continue this discussion. de legro has obviously made up his mind about Daemons and believes that anyone who doesn't like them is either wrong, misinformed, or not playing battle master right.

Arrtemesia defends the Daimons to his death because he's an addict for attention and, without a doubt in my mind, everyone would all too quickly forget about him if the Zuma were to disappear.

The Zuma GM I can sympathize with. He's trying his best and I think he's doing a good, if misdirected job. Honestly, I think you more than anyone should take a step back and say "I can be doing something better", you don't have to, but I think it's the right choice to make. Honestly, from me to you, I would try and get some other Zuma GMs to work with. Not to simply do your bidding mind you, but to have a genuine input on the actions of the Zuma. Don't tell me theres not enough dedicated players, hell, if BM has lots of something it's dedicated players. This would be a quick and easy way to make the Daimons feel more real, multi faceted, and "play withable".


Now they are just a wrench in the cog wheel of player on player interaction. They don't add anything, but they grind any action around them to a halt. I feel like I'm playing dungeons and dragons with s tyrannical game master whenever I interact with the Zuma....

[songqu88@gmail.com]

Oh my, vanKaya, my dear friend, when you start to levy out labels that generally looks...suspect.

I'll tell you why you wouldn't want to be me so people can stop being jealous of where I am, because I definitely know some people feel that way. I have no power in the realm. I can never have my character become a region lord, or marshal, or ruler, or banker, whatever. I cannot engage in my own ambitions. Yeah, I can say some things that are unrelated to the Zuma officially, but I can't do anything for my own benefit. And really, I haven't. If you disagree, do show exactly why it must be that I did something for personal gain, because I think most of the time hostility against me has nothing to do with really what I have done but rather who I am. What if I were, in fact, the Zuma GM, and you just flamed Artemesia in one breath and acted nicer to the Zuma GM in the next? I'm not saying I am, but remember, the GM is anonymous, and has taken steps to ensure this. Do not assume anything, so remember it's not good to be caught being two-faced.

So let's just say that Artemesia has not been around. Can I just come out now and tell you that it would be very likely that instead of now that people complain, that people would have had similar reasons to complain at least half a year ago already? Look, I know I am abrasive a lot of times, but dang guys, try to have at least some semblance of poise. If not, you only prove you're as bad as me, and if that's something you want to demonstrate, hey, that's your choice./

[Glaumring the Fox]

Ok, where is this going now?