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[Lefanis]

Both sides have been fairly liberal in stealing gold from prisoners.

Yup, but that isn't the important part of the letter, is it.  ;)

[Indirik]

Well, sure. You are Ohnarians, after all. You *deserve* to be tortured.

[Gustav Kuriga]

Sorraine's general during the War of the Hearth Right also didn't endear himself to Velax or Galiard - Mathilda did a good job of clearing up the notion that they were just going to go and burn some temples, but I remember one council discussion in which it was observed that Ohnar West was doing a great job coordinating their small army's objectives and timing with Arcaea and Cathay while Sorraine's General pretty much never told anybody where they were or what they were doing even when directly asked. In some wars that might've been as inconsequential as it sounds, but in the Hearth Right war 5-8k of mobile CS made a ton of difference.

Sorraine still banked some goodwill as their army definitely showed up on several occasions when it was needed, but Henzo reinforced the idea that Sorraine was going to do more or less whatever it wanted, whenever it wanted.

I'm sorry, but I told exactly what I planned to do. Which was get behind enemy lines and pillage their regions. Velax convinced my character otherwise, so that might be where you're getting the confusion.

[Indirik]

Regarding Velax's 4 points:

1) regarding religious exclusiveness in Sorraine: that should be a no-brainer. Sorraine is a theocracy. Why would you think it would allow other religions to be practised? Also, what business is it of foreign realms? It is an internal matter of realm policy. That's like complaining about the way another realm standardizes food prices for internal sales. I.e. it's no one else's business. Especially since Sorraine has not actually forced other religions out of our regions. We still have temples of other religions in Sorraine. If we had actuallt closed everyone else's temples, then I could see some objections.

2) and 3) burning temples, etc.: I was aware that a temple was burned by our army. That happened after my character removed herself from the army, though, because she thought the marshal was an ass. I really don't know much of that episode, or of any coordination problems. One thing to remember: it was the other side that started it, by burning down one or two of our temples first.

4) yeah, I agree. Taylin has never really been all that fond of Selene. This move does seem a bit over the top and barbaric. A few members of the church have called for Selene to be "put out to pasture", in a manner of speaking.

[Scarlett]

so that might be where you're getting the confusion.

The only time Henzo responded to letters during the war was when Velax and Galiard went over his head to Mathilda. Generals have to communicate on a daily basis. It's why it's such a difficult and thankless job, which is why Galiard both got rid of Cathay's General during the early part of the war and why as Galiard's player I am glad not to have to do it anymore: it is tremendously time consuming and I don't enjoy that part of the game as much.

Big wars are about coordination and joint strategy, and Sorraine wanted very little to do with that. That was your choice, of course, but it didn't earn as much goodwill as it might have, particularly when the supposedly awful Ohnar West did an excellent job with it. It was the opposite of what Galiard (and probably Velax) expected. When Henzo did communicate, he came across as undisciplined. This was reinforced when he ditched Sorraine.

Good BM generals are pretty rare.

[Velax]

1) regarding religious exclusiveness in Sorraine: that should be a no-brainer. Sorraine is a theocracy. Why would you think it would allow other religions to be practised? Also, what business is it of foreign realms? It is an internal matter of realm policy. That's like complaining about the way another realm standardizes food prices for internal sales. I.e. it's no one else's business. Especially since Sorraine has not actually forced other religions out of our regions. We still have temples of other religions in Sorraine. If we had actuallt closed everyone else's temples, then I could see some objections.

I never said Sorraine should allow other religions to preach there. I said the fact they don't is one of the reasons other realms and religions have a negative opinion of the Church. Arguing about it doesn't change that fact.

[Antonine]

Part of the Church's reputation is probably a holdover from Selene's outburst that got NeoSartania destroyed. Other factors that are Sorraine related:

1. Unwillingness to let other religions inside their borders - the only realm that does that currently.

2. Burning temples during the War of the Hearth Right gave the impression, even to their allies, that Sorraine was using the war as an excuse to further the Church's agenda.

3. Something that pissed Velax and Galiard off hugely was the perception that Sorraine was prepared to abandon Arcaea's and Cathay's forces in Haul when we needed them just so they could go burn some Zonasan temples.

4. Selene is doing herself and the Church no favours by threatening torture on every Ohnarian that ends up in her dungeons, as well as promising to continue fighting the war until both realms are destroyed, just as Velax is trying to negotiate a peace that sees Sorraine not losing a city.

1. Nonsense. Ohnar West bans religions the Prime Minister disapproves of from preaching within it or having any temples there - the reason why Nbasah defected to Coralynth. Likewise, Arcaea, according to the Dragon worshippers, bans its priests. Sorraine, on the other hand, doesn't formally ban foreign priests - but so far none of them have asked permission to preach.

2. The Order of the Elders started it :p

3. No comment.

4. Fair point. Selene has never been much of a diplomat. In the past she generally managed by virtue of being a friend of Jenred and borrowing some of his diplomatic currency in exchange for steering Sartanism in a pro-Arcaea direction. That evaporated through her retirement as a ruler and through Jenred's disappearance. The only international people left with memories of Selene tend to be those that have never had any cause to think good of her and so find it easy to believe the worst of her. That's my take on it as the player anyway.

[Ender]

Sorraine is a theocracy.

Just because it makes sense, doesn't mean you have to like it. It's the same reason people hate republics for being republics, monarchies for being monarchies, etc etc.

I know in Kindara a lot of the poor opinion of the Church comes simply from history and there being a decent chunk of Elders in the group. The Church of Sartan, especially with Selene, never really went out of their way to make anyone like them back in the day and so no one cares if someone tells them they aren't a bunch of jerks. Caspius never did anything to make Kindara like Sorraine either and, since Sorraine is a theocracy, disliking the realm is disliking the Church at the same time.

[Velax]

1. Nonsense. Ohnar West bans religions the Prime Minister disapproves of from preaching within it or having any temples there - the reason why Nbasah defected to Coralynth. Likewise, Arcaea, according to the Dragon worshippers, bans its priests. Sorraine, on the other hand, doesn't formally ban foreign priests - but so far none of them have asked permission to preach.

You're missing the point, as Indirik did. I made no statement on whether I, personally, give a !@#$ whether Sorraine lets priests or foreign temples into Sorraine. I am stating a fact - that because Sorraine is perceived as hostile to all other religions and does not let them inside its borders, it produces a negative view of the Church amongst others. I'm not sure how I can state that any clearer.

As for Ohnar West, there are plenty of other reasons to dislike them that have nothing to do with religion. And Arcaea doesn't refuse entry to Dragon priests. We refuse entry to Melehan.

[Lefanis]

1. Nonsense. Ohnar West bans religions the Prime Minister disapproves of from preaching within it or having any temples there - the reason why Nbasah defected to Coralynth. Likewise, Arcaea, according to the Dragon worshippers, bans its priests. Sorraine, on the other hand, doesn't formally ban foreign priests - but so far none of them have asked permission to preach.

Lol. Sartanian priests were asked to leave Ohnar after they started beating up Ohnar's priests. Sartanism also deliberately declared WotD evil, to cause unrest in (at the time) Sartanist regions in Ohnar. That didn't turn out the way they wanted however.

[Indirik]

@Velax: we got your point we're just giving you our responses to it. Also:

" 1. Unwillingness to let other religions inside their borders - the only realm that does that currently."

You said Sorraine is the only realm that does it. Antonine is pointing out that you were incorrect. Sorraine is not the only realm that does not let (at least some) other religions in. (I can't vouch for the veracity of his information though...) I would be surprised if there were not some other realms that were against allowing some religions in. It would probably be difficult, if not impossible, to be a Sartanian lord in PoZ (which has two faiths determined to wipe out the Church of Sartan), or perhaps Kindara.

[Velax]

Sorraine is the only realm that lets no other religions in. If it does let other religions in, you really should publicise that, as it would help your reputation considerably.

[Indirik]

Actually, I know of no official law forbidding it. However, as my character has never actually heard of any such objection from anyone, I can't do that, even if my character wouldn't consider the issue completely ridiculous. After all, any noble who can think without smoke coming out of his ears would realize that the idea of a foreign religion being active inside a *theocracy* is simply ridiculous, as well as it being no one else's damned business how Sorraine conducts their internal affairs. At least that's what Taylin would say, if she were writing forum posts. Except she wouldn't be so nice about it. ;)

[Antonine]

Velax, you should really let Ohnar know that you only ban Melehan then because they've been pretty insistent that you've banned all Dragon priests :p

Also, as I've said, Sorraine does not officially ban foreign priests. There is no law against them. In fact, it is up to the region lords whether they let priests preach there. It's just that, so far no one has asked for permission (generally they've just preached without permission) and I doubt that any region lords would give permission. But that's not a ban.

Now, the perception by other realms might be that there is a ban, but your claim that Sorraine actually bans foreign priests is factually incorrect. And that's all I was pointing out.

[Velax]

Velax told Ingall that a while back. He doesn't really care that much about it, though.

I never said "ban" in my original points. I said "unwillingness". Which, given you said you doubt any region lord would give permission to preach, seems to be the case.