Player targetted abuse for in-game actions

[Geronus]

Certainly it is relevant if you are not sure what led to the continuation on the forums and if you are assuming that the player of Elegant is unable to distinguish between IC and OOC. I am providing basis for the vitriolic.

On advocation, having read Elegant's letters I am in a unique position to understand his state of mind and motivations, including the player behind it. I would think this would be valuable contribution. And with the tide of opinion against him, I will definitely balance it up.

As for appearance of bias, as has been generally agreed upon on having a character in the same realm as either party for any case, I will be abstaining from voting for the verdict but not on any general voting for jurisdiction which was never held. Everything I say are not decisions but Points that I make. If they sound like decisions maybe it's because there's truth in them.

I don't think the tide of opinion is against him at all. As for his motivations, I don't think they matter that much. They're clear enough to me without you needing to explain them, and I would in any case prefer to hear them directly from him if they did matter. What matters here is the facts of the case. Motivation only matters by way of mitigation (assuming he is guilty, which hasn't been established), along with remorse.

[Fury]

We are assuming nothing of the sort. By Elegant's own admission, there is no difference between OOC and IC motivation for him.

Exactly - like there is no difference between OOC and IC motivation for Merlin? OOC plan to avoid "stagnation" on Atamara and IC carry it out?

I want him to recognize the fact that the play style which he has admitted to taking is harmful to the game and/or other players when he comes into conflict with them, and realize that a simple apologize doesn't solve the issues created from that style of play.

...and then if it is against the Social Contract to make sure that such play doesn't propagate further so that others aren't harmed in the same way I feel I was.

He has apologized where he didn't need to. If we can play at our own pace, we can sure as well play in our own style. Using OOC concerns to IC shake up IG is also a play style that many seem to like but just as many who don't as it breaks up the RP in an OOC way.

Right now, this is ONE character against another ONE character. IG, that is all you have. If we can destroy realms, we can sure destroy characters. In the forum, all I see is him countering what you say and you countering back. This happens everyday in the forum.

[Anaris]

If we can play at our own pace, we can sure as well play in our own style.

I think that if you'll carefully reread the Inalienable Rights, you'll find that there is not, in fact, any right to play in your own style.

Attempting to create such a right would open up such a can of worms you'd never see the bottom of it.

[Elegant]

There are three more inputs I would like to say:

1. I opened up all the letters to see how many letters did I send and how many days it was done. Here is statistics:

First letter sent about 6 days ago and last letter (closing the matter with General Wind) was sent about 2 days ago. So, it all happened between 4 days period.

No. of letters sent to all members of League = 7
No. of letters sent to elders = 9

Where is that claim of 50 letter spam and harassment?

2. I understand from discussions that Merlin's player is focusing on the word "personal" said by me. Is there any in-game proof (like, my char attacking your other char or my other char attacking your chars?)

3. I said it was personal because I wanted to be sarcastic on the person who commented that I am taking it too personal. See the post. I did not know that Merlin will get offended due to my sarcasm on that other person.

Any more concerns to be addressed?

[Geronus]

Right now, this is ONE character against another ONE character. IG, that is all you have. If we can destroy realms, we can sure destroy characters. In the forum, all I see is him countering what you say and you countering back. This happens everyday in the forum.

Yes it does, but a certain level of civility is expected. It's fine to attack one player's arguments. It is not fine to instead attack that player as a person.

[Dante Silverfire]

There are three more inputs I would like to say:

1. I opened up all the letters to see how many letters did I send and how many days it was done. Here is statistics:

First letter sent about 6 days ago and last letter (closing the matter with General Wind) was sent about 2 days ago. So, it all happened between 4 days period.

No. of letters sent to all members of League = 7
No. of letters sent to elders = 9

Where is that claim of 50 letter spam and harassment?

Sorry, let me be more specific. I have personally received 38 messages from Elegant's character in the past 30 days. Excluding all messages before Elegant's character Jason began insinuating Merlin had betrayed him, leaves 36 total messages. These messages begin starting 13 days ago up through two-days ago. They were sent through a variety of channels including: All members of the League, Elders of the League, Rulers Channel, private correspondence between Jason and Merlin, private correspondence between Jason, Merlin, and the General of CE, and private correspondence between Jason, Merlin, and other rulers of the League.

Nearly every single one of those messages suggests a betrayal by my character. All restated over and over again in slightly different terms. Some with, some without evidence. None actually responding to my character's attempts to discuss issues or even accepting an argument that any of it is forged or taken out of context. Now, if I wasn't sure that Elegant's player hadn't  taken these things personally and thus was targeting me personally as a player, I would have brushed it off as a simple IC conflict and that Jason the character was simply irrational and had it out for my character. However, Elegant's player states this clearly on the forum by any reasonable interpretation of the words he wrote. So, it brought on a whole new meaning for the harassment in-game I had been receiving, and the forum harassment didn't help.

Also, these are only the messages which I personally have access to. I don't know what other letters have been sent by Jason in-game to fulfill what seems to be an OOC hate from my point of view. What both Elegant's player and I both know (and has been stated previously) is that CE's realm council which includes both Jason and Fury, have had access to portions of Merlin's private correspondence for multiple weeks to a month. So, I can't be sure how long this attitude has gone on or been used to affect in-game events.

The only evidence "I" personally have is the letters which I've received myself and the public forum posts. Other evidence can be gathered by powers which I don't have if that is what you seek. I will gladly screenshot the entirety of the received messages I've had from Jason in the past month for exact reference. BUT, I believe such messages should be restricted to the Magistrate's backroom visibility because they are highly sensitive in nature for those involved in Atamaran politics and shouldn't be freely posted on the forum in bulk.

2. I understand from discussions that Merlin's player is focusing on the word "personal" said by me. Is there any in-game proof (like, my char attacking your other char or my other char attacking your chars?)

3. I said it was personal because I wanted to be sarcastic on the person who commented that I am taking it too personal. See the post. I did not know that Merlin will get offended due to my sarcasm on that other person.

2. I've already answered that. See earlier in the thread.

3. You can't be sarcastic about certain things. You can't "sarcastically" tell someone that if they don't log on at sunset they'll be banned. You don't "sarcastically" be rude to players you don't know who may not know you are joking, and you certainly shouldn't "sarcastically" support a dogma of gaming which is detrimental to game play.

It just seems to me that you still don't understand what I've been trying to say here, and I don't really know any other way to say it.

[Elegant]

Sorry, let me be more specific. I have personally received 38 messages from Elegant's character in the past 30 days. Excluding all messages before Elegant's character Jason began insinuating Merlin had betrayed him, leaves 36 total messages. These messages begin starting 13 days ago up through two-days ago. They were sent through a variety of channels including: All members of the League, Elders of the League, Rulers Channel, private correspondence between Jason and Merlin, private correspondence between Jason, Merlin, and the General of CE, and private correspondence between Jason, Merlin, and other rulers of the League.

Nearly every single one of those messages suggests a betrayal by my character. All restated over and over again in slightly different terms.

The matter here being discussed is about the exposure of Merlin by Jason. Which happened about 6-7 days ago. Before that, there were different discussions, which did not show conflict on the exposure matter. You can't count 30 days. Also, if I remember correctly, there were only 2 messages sent by Jason between Jason, Merlin and Enri on this matter. Rulers channel also not much (I will count tomorrow may be 2 or 3).

Also, these are only the messages which I personally have access to. I don't know what other letters have been sent by Jason in-game to fulfill what seems to be an OOC hate from my point of view. What both Elegant's player and I both know (and has been stated previously) is that CE's realm council which includes both Jason and Fury, have had access to portions of Merlin's private correspondence for multiple weeks to a month. So, I can't be sure how long this attitude has gone on or been used to affect in-game events. 

You want to discuss in game events now?

3. You can't be sarcastic about certain things. You can't "sarcastically" tell someone that if they don't log on at sunset they'll be banned. You don't "sarcastically" be rude to players you don't know who may not know you are joking, and you certainly shouldn't "sarcastically" support a dogma of gaming which is detrimental to game play.

I was trying to be funny by telling the "personal" thing in my post. If that's the thing this whole thread is about, then I feel bad for making such a post in forum. I didn't expect such an outrage over my "personal" sarcasm. So, magistrates, what's my punishment for making that "personal" sarcasm post?

[Anaris]

The matter here being discussed is about the exposure of Merlin by Jason.

The matter here being discussed is about your alleged harassment of Silverfire, in-game and out.

You do not get to define the parameters of the complaint; only Silverfire and the Magistrates can do that.

[Dante Silverfire]

The matter here being discussed is about the exposure of Merlin by Jason. Which happened about 6-7 days ago. Before that, there were different discussions, which did not show conflict on the exposure matter. You can't count 30 days. Also, if I remember correctly, there were only 2 messages sent by Jason between Jason, Merlin and Enri on this matter. Rulers channel also not much (I will count tomorrow may be 2 or 3).

I'm not counting 30 days. I'm counting 13. All of these are based upon the same issue. Jason knew about Merlin's plans but was trying to expose Merlin as a "traitor" through self-admittance on Merlin's part. At least that was how I saw it. I knew you had the letters at the time, and of course do now. The first in-game actual statement from Jason showing he knew of it and was going to expose Merlin was 12 days ago.

You want to discuss in game events now?

All of them are related, and I'm just responding to questions/what you've said.

--------

I think I've said everything I have to say unless asked more direct questions. What I'm saying certainly isn't coming across clearly to Elegant's player OR he's choosing to ignore it. Either way, I'm only going to be repeating myself at this point. If the Magistrates want the html file of my messages received from Jason in-game post here or send me a private message and I'll attach the file to you privately so you can have it in the backroom for viewing.

[^ban^]

If the Magistrates want the html file of my messages received from Jason in-game post here or send me a private message and I'll attach the file to you privately so you can have it in the backroom for viewing.

There wont be a need for that; if your message history absolutely must be reviewed, the dev team has other means.

[Vellos]

Question for you, Slverfire–

In concrete terms, what is it that Elegant has done that you think is wrong? How do you expect the Magistrates to word their description of his "style of play?" Something about number of messages sent? What do you expect us to rule on, here?

I sympathize with your line of reasoning and I'm inclined to support it: but where I get confused is on exactly what we're supposed to be saying. We can't just say, "Elegant's style of play is bad!" we need to be able to saywhat exactly about it is bad. SO what is it? I'm unclear on that point.

Is it just that he is personally involved in his characters? Damn, that's a lot of people we've just ruled against! And it's some of the most fun players too, who do get personally involved. Is it about the degree of personal involvement? What is it precisely stated that you are alleging is bad, and which has therefore injured your playing of the game on an OOC basis, and therefore allegedly violating the Social Contract?

[Geronus]

Thank you Vellos. I've been trying to ask that question. You did it better.

[skiarxon@gmail.com]

3. You can't be sarcastic about certain things. You can't "sarcastically" tell someone that if they don't log on at sunset they'll be banned. You don't "sarcastically" be rude to players you don't know who may not know you are joking, and you certainly shouldn't "sarcastically" support a dogma of gaming which is detrimental to game play.

This is another serious accusation I think if it is true.

[Geronus]

This is another serious accusation I think if it is true.

I don't think it is. I think it's just an example that Silverfire is using to illustrate his point.

[Dante Silverfire]

This is another serious accusation I think if it is true.

I don't think it is. I think it's just an example that Silverfire is using to illustrate his point.

^This.^

Question for you, Slverfire–

In concrete terms, what is it that Elegant has done that you think is wrong? How do you expect the Magistrates to word their description of his "style of play?" Something about number of messages sent? What do you expect us to rule on, here?

I sympathize with your line of reasoning and I'm inclined to support it: but where I get confused is on exactly what we're supposed to be saying. We can't just say, "Elegant's style of play is bad!" we need to be able to saywhat exactly about it is bad. SO what is it? I'm unclear on that point.

Is it just that he is personally involved in his characters? Damn, that's a lot of people we've just ruled against! And it's some of the most fun players too, who do get personally involved. Is it about the degree of personal involvement? What is it precisely stated that you are alleging is bad, and which has therefore injured your playing of the game on an OOC basis, and therefore allegedly violating the Social Contract?

I've been having a hard time wording it exactly myself. I'll try to be a bit explicit here.

• I believe Elegant's play style is to play his character (Jason at least) as an extension of himself as a player.
• By playing his character as an extension of himself, when his character feels betrayed, he seems to have taken it personally.
• He then took in-game actions as part of a personal attack targeting myself as a player, not my character.
• He did this by repeated harassment, and exploiting the leadership position of his character in-game, to ensure the maximum possible deprivation could be inflicted upon me through my character.
• He backed this up with verbal attacks and insults being brought into the forum and continued his abuse in the forum space.
• Taken alone, his forum actions are enough in my opinion to demonstrate a breach of the Social contract, but when put together in the context of his in-game actions, the only reasonable conclusion is that this personal attack was not solely in the OOC environment of the forum, but also in-game and perhaps instigated in-game for a much longer period of time and with abuse of his in-game posts as support, whose time frame cannot be easily determined.