Author Topic: Player Harassment and Creation of a Toxic Atmosphere  (Read 9336 times)

Stabbity

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I've seen quite a bit of this, having a character in Silnaria, and frankly, I'm disgusted by the behavior. I understand ooc humor, I enjoy it, and I cross a line every now and again. But the ooc attitude exhibited here in this case is indistinguishable from the IC attitudes as well, and I frankly find the whole ordeal to be toxic, and spawning from a handful of players. The comment about this being like Scary Movie irked me too. This is battlemaster, not some frat boy film where a dude gets a penis in his ear.
Life is a dance, it is only fitting that death sing the tune.

Hammargays? Really? Is that supposed to be fine? Especially that?

Blue Star

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I just want to ask do many of the people commenting believe we organized this so called 'School Bullying'? I mean this wasn't organized to insult and many of us were just making comments referring to the realm's name.

Pretty much in my perspective, however messed up that is cause hey ya gotta be a bit nutty to play BM, I am going to greatly refrain from OCC. If commenting as such will be seen as a assault on another character then im simply going to keep everything in character.

I personally found Silnarnia hilarious and I'm in the realm, personally I thought it was spelled actually like that until I actually looked at. Would of been comically really.
I think like a sinner. Curse like a sailor. Smile like a saint. :)

Geronus

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Assuming we were to do something about this, what do people think should be done?

Anaris

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I just want to ask do many of the people commenting believe we organized this so called 'School Bullying'? I mean this wasn't organized to insult and many of us were just making comments referring to the realm's name.

No, of course it's not organized.

The whole point of this is that a toxic atmosphere is being created, where it's "OK" to say things that demean and stress out a particular player.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Anaris

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Assuming we were to do something about this, what do people think should be done?

I would say warnings. Public warnings in the realms involved, to leave off the OOC crap. Somewhere in there should be a clear statement that though you may think something is just a harmless joke, the aggregation of so much ridicule heaped onto one person or group is very much not OK.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

jaune

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People can laugh and throw jokes, as long as the target of the jokes is laughing too... when target isnt laughing, its not having fun, its bullying.
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Dante Silverfire

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The whole point of this is that a toxic atmosphere is being created, where it's "OK" to say things that demean and stress out a particular player.

I think one of the main issues with it once the atmosphere is established is that it is very hard to defend against.

My character can defend himself when things are situated purely IC, but he can't defend OOC statements about him being evil, manipulative, or what have you. Not even *I* can defend such.
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GoldPanda

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I'd like to note that I tried to find some more of TH's OOC messages when he first founded Silnaria, with which I had hoped to show that he was a willing and eager participant in the conversation. For example, I'm pretty sure that he originally brought up the "game mechanic versus RP" argument himself. However, those messages are more than a month old now and have fallen off the queue. I am having trouble building a satisfactory defense for myself here, because TH waited almost exactly a month to cite my words against me.

It is fully possible for no single message to break a rule, and yet have a collection of a hundred such messages that is worth banning someone from the game.

If it's a hundred messages from a single player, sure. When it's one or two messages made by ten players each? Really?

Just as an example, due to a screw-up on my part, Ete City suffered some starvation recently. Quite many nobles noticed and called my Margrave out on the mistake. It was quite embarrassing for me as a player to handle, as my noble end up saying mea culpas for many days. If all those messages came from a single player, I might be filing a Magistrate case regarding harassment myself. However, it was just a bunch of different nobles having a completely natural reaction to something my noble did (or neglected to do).

That's pretty much what happened here. Again, I'd like to note that most of these messages from me are about a month old. I poked fun at Merlin for a bit and then I stopped. Jason's player recently unpaused and was not aware of the previous conversations in the League, as his noble was no longer a member of the guild. There is no continuous, malicious harassment going on here. Call it a "toxic atmosphere" if you must, but if a few OOC insults directed at a noble is grounds for a warning, then you had better warn most players in the game.
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Eirikr

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Assuming we were to do something about this, what do people think should be done?

I'd say warnings, though Jason needs more. If I have to file a separate case for "Hammargays", I will. Considering his time in the game, former ruler status, and past warning, I don't see why he should get just a slap on the wrist again.

For example, I'm pretty sure that he originally brought up the "game mechanic versus RP" argument himself. However, those messages are more than a month old now and have fallen off the queue.
I know for certain that the first message of that sort (sent to the entire channel, at least) was from you. I thought it was very odd that it would suddenly appear, as I said in my reply:

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Out-of-Character from Ravendon Eirikr   (16 days, 21 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in "League of the Eagle" (55 recipients)
Can we cut the OOC nonsense about game mechanics? Nothing has been done in conflict with them; Merlin has repeatedly provided several options for IC ways to deal with diplomacy.

You want to claim Silnaria is in rebellion to Coria? Fine. Do it IC. We'll contest that IC, of course. We have been providing communication establishing what happened... It is your choice to accept it or not.

The game mechanics are pointless without the RP context, and vice-versa. How would you explain Talerium's peace with Darka without RP? What do treaties mean without RP? Count communications between realms as garbage, too. They're not backed up by game mechanics, either.

Bugs are another story altogether. It's something you should be able to do, but can't. They are the rare case of an unknown result; you make up for it and the world keeps turning. In all other cases, the RP is just building off the existing game mechanic... If that's off base, then why are any of us bothering to play this game or send messages?
Sean Shaffer

This letter was sent after a few others had responded, but I was expressing confusion as to how we suddenly jumped to that logic.

Tom

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People can laugh and throw jokes, as long as the target of the jokes is laughing too... when target isnt laughing, its not having fun, its bullying.

this

Stabbity

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I'd like to note that I tried to find some more of TH's OOC messages when he first founded Silnaria, with which I had hoped to show that he was a willing and eager participant in the conversation. For example, I'm pretty sure that he originally brought up the "game mechanic versus RP" argument himself.


That isn't true and you know it. The game mechanics vs rp that was thrown out was not by Silnaria, but the dumbest argument I've ever seen for OOC justification of IC behavior. When you have a fully adjustable option, sticking to one setting is not game mechanics trumping RP. There is a reason there is a button that says break alliance, declare war, etc, etc. In fact, here is the first letter mentioning game mechanics.

Out-of-Character from Jean Luc Kinsey   (18 days, 1 hour ago)
Message sent to everyone in "League of the Eagle" (56 recipients)
Game mechanics trump RP. Anyway you look at it, CE and Tara are allied with Coria, and Silnaria is the one in rebellion here.

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GoldPanda

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The messages I was referring to happened in the flurry of messages right after Merlin founded Silnaria. They've gone off the queue now, so I can't prove anything.

I remember TH writing an OOC message on the subject and me replying with, "Exactly, game mechanics trumps RP, so (some more words here)." This was a few days before my other message that you were referring to.

That isn't true and you know it.

Could you please not imply that I am a liar? If you have proof that I'm lying, then please show it.

Do we archive the older messages somewhere?
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Dante Silverfire

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The messages I was referring to happened in the flurry of messages right after Merlin founded Silnaria. They've gone off the queue now, so I can't prove anything.

I remember TH writing an OOC message on the subject and me replying with, "Exactly, game mechanics trumps RP, so (some more words here)." This was a few days before my other message that you were referring to.
 
Could you please not imply that I am a liar? If you have proof that I'm lying, then please show it.

Do we archive the older messages somewhere?

Silnaria was founded exactly 32 days ago. Which means every message sent after its founding was available when I sent this case. The message that is quoted of you is from 18 days ago. If it was a day or two before this it should be available.

However, perhaps I'm mistaken. If you can let me know approximately how many days ago you think it was sent based upon the above information I am happy to look for it. I have archived copies of every message I have sent in the past 2 months, and have also archived all of the messages I have received in the past 2 months. I'll look for it within a decently sized span around any time frame you give me.

I do say though that I know I wasn't the one to start the whole "game mechanics vs RP" debate. I responded to it, yes. But I didn't start it. Perhaps whatever evidence you want me to find will prove myself wrong, but that is my remembered understanding.
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Eirikr

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I remember TH writing an OOC message on the subject and me replying with, "Exactly, game mechanics trumps RP, so (some more words here)." This was a few days before my other message that you were referring to.
He did say that, but after your initial message. I'll go find it when I have the time (I'm at work). I thought there may have been private messages between you two to that effect.