OOC comments insulting another player

[Tom]

I fail to see how any part of this last exchange is relevant to the case at hand.

There are very strict rules on this sub-forum. Anything that doesn't relate to the case does not belong here.


The question at hand is a very simple one:

Did the two messages quoted break the rule that says "No verbal attacks, insults or harassment of other players." or did they not?


Everything else is utterly and completely irrelevant.

[Buffalkill]

Also can I get comments from people who aren't mods camping this subforum?

IMHO, I don't see the msgs as insulting or passive-aggressive. I see a player being critical and expressing frustration with a team mate. If you can't tell your team mate that you're pissed off at him, or that he's doing a piss-poor job, then it turns into passive aggression, like disregarding orders, ignoring messages, sarcasm, IC niggling, etc. From what little I've seen, there's nothing "passive" about Kai.

[Indirik]

IMHO, I don't see the msgs as insulting or passive-aggressive. I see a player being critical and expressing frustration with a team mate. If you can't tell your team mate that you're pissed off at him, or that he's doing a piss-poor job, then it turns into passive aggression, like disregarding orders, ignoring messages, sarcasm, IC niggling, etc. From what little I've seen, there's nothing "passive" about Kai.

You can tell people that you're frustrated with them, or even pissed off at them, without being insulting, passive-aggressive, or calling them incompetent. Even saying something like "It really pisses me off when you do stuff like that, I wish you would stop it." isn't against the social contract. There really is a difference between criticism and insult. IMO those two messages, in the contest they were given, is clearly intended to be insulting/belittling toward the player.

[Buffalkill]

You can tell people that you're frustrated with them, or even pissed off at them, without being insulting, passive-aggressive, or calling them incompetent. Even saying something like "It really pisses me off when you do stuff like that, I wish you would stop it." isn't against the social contract. There really is a difference between criticism and insult. IMO those two messages, in the contest they were given, is clearly intended to be insulting/belittling toward the player.

There's definitely a kinder way to say it. Saying that he's terrible at the game might have crossed the line. Still, it seems like something that could be dealt with at the realm level.

[Indirik]

I believe that, between the two OOCs that Kai sent, someone tried to deal with it IG. Which is why Kai sent the second OOC. Perhaps someone in the realm would care to post all three of the relevant OOC messages in order, so the entire context can be seen.

[egamma]

There's actually a turn in between the messages; I'll remove all automatically generated reports. I will ask that players in Lukon and Outer Tilog avert their eyes 

Out-of-Character from Actrial Erendegard   (2 days, 21 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
What is it about people who
- love power and position
- are bad at the game
- argue with both characters
Kevin Lee

star  [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails]

Orders from Actrial Erendegard   (2 days, 21 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
Next turn:
VEMH 2 turn move to Windaria
Actrial Erendegard
Royal of Oritolon

star  [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails] | [vulgarity]

Orders from Axis Excelsior Erendegard   (2 days, 21 hours ago)
Message sent to all allies in the region Vir el Mari heights (15 recipients)
Orders from Actrial Erendegard   (just in)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
Next turn:
VEMH 2 turn move to Windaria

Actrial Erendegard
Axis Excelsior Erendegard
Knight of Oritolon

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Orders from Actrial Erendegard   (2 days, 19 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
VEMH: 2 turn move to Windaria, pass it on to Aren
Actrial Erendegard
Royal of Oritolon

star  [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails] | [vulgarity]

Orders from Actrial Erendegard   (2 days, 19 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
Line settings:
Inf: FDL
Arch: FDL
Cav: RAW
Actrial Erendegard
Royal of Oritolon

star  [reply to sender] | [ignore] | [userdetails] | [vulgarity]

Orders from Ash Ketchum   (2 days, 18 hours ago)
Message sent to all allies in the region Vir el Mari heights (16 recipients)
Aren friends,

The order for today and the unit setting.

=====
Orders from Actrial Erendegard   (14 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
VEMH: 2 turn move to Windaria, pass it on to Aren

Actrial Erendegard
Royal of Oritolon

=====
Orders from Actrial Erendegard   (13 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
Line settings:
Inf: FDL
Arch: FDL
Cav: RAW

Actrial Erendegard
Royal of Oritolon
Ash Ketchum
Royal of Oritolon
Ambassador of Oritolon
Knight of Grentzen

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Report from Axis Excelsior Erendegard   (2 days, 11 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
Scout Report (Windaria): Scribe Note
Scout Report (Rola Sierrie): Scribe Note
Axis Excelsior Erendegard
Knight of Oritolon

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Letter from Axis Excelsior Erendegard   (2 days, 11 hours ago)
Message sent to all allies in the region Vir el Mari heights (16 recipients)
I am now travelling to Windaria, to arrive in 2 turns. Use delay arrival.
Axis Excelsior Erendegard
Knight of Oritolon

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Out-of-Character from Ceasar Magdalen   (2 days, 9 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
Mature Kevin, very mature of you. Keep your insults in game please.
Wade Harlaine

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Orders from Ceasar Magdalen   (2 days, 9 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
Ignore all orders of Marshal Actrial that are given realm wide he has no authority to issue such orders and should learn the chain of command, He is not I repeat not carrying out the wishes of his General which is his duty. If he wishes to be General then he should run for the position as I have previously stated.

Do not move to Windaria unless you want your men to be slaughtered, Those in the Heights should continue with the TO until further notice. Everyone else in the south gather in Grentzen .

Respectfully Yours.
Ceasar Magdalen
Minister of War of Oritolon
Knight of Alebad

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Report from Ceasar Magdalen   (2 days, 9 hours ago)
Message sent to all allies in the region Vir el Mari heights (16 recipients)
Members of Aren I respectfully ask you to remain with us in the heights.

Orders from Ceasar Magdalen
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
Ignore all orders of Marshal Actrial that are given realm wide he has no authority to issue such orders and should learn the chain of command, He is not I repeat not carrying out the wishes of his General which is his duty. If he wishes to be General then he should run for the position as I have previously stated.

Do not move to Windaria unless you want your men to be slaughtered, Those in the Heights should continue with the TO until further notice. Everyone else in the south gather in Grentzen .

Respectfully Yours.
Ceasar Magdalen
Minister of War of Oritolon
Knight of Alebad

Ceasar Magdalen
Minister of War of Oritolon
Knight of Alebad

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Takeover Activity   (2 days, 9 hours ago)
message to everyone in Vir el Mari heights
Soldiers of Bracka Magdalen have been patrolling the streets and attacking peasants critical of the regime change.
The locals now fear Oritolon somewhat more. There is a little bit less sympathy for Oritolon now.

Letter from Drognor Noble   (2 days, 9 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
I have cancelled my movement towards VEH
Drognor Noble
Knight of Oritolon

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Orders from Ceasar Magdalen   (2 days, 9 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
Thank you Sir Drognor, your loyalty and respect for the chain of command should serve as an example to those that should no better.

Respectfully Yours.
Ceasar Magdalen
Minister of War of Oritolon
Knight of Alebad

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Out-of-Character from Ceasar Magdalen   (2 days, 9 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
previous message should have been a letter.
Wade Harlaine

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Letter from Eadwulf Osha   (2 days, 9 hours ago)
Message sent to all allies in the region Vir el Mari heights (16 recipients)
Aren will stay put until Oritolon gets her head straight, but it's the wrong time for messing about.

You'd better have an ace in the hole over in Iglavik whilst we're sat here doing this. Vir el Mari isn't worth a fig if it means letting the northern scum carve into Oritolon's belly.
Eadwulf Osha
Warlord of Aren
Count of Warmanoras
Marshal of the Irdalni Prowlers

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Report from Malice Osha   (2 days, 9 hours ago)
Message sent to all allies in the region Vir el Mari heights (16 recipients)
Scribe Note Scout Report (Maira Merani)
Scribe Note Scout Report (Bode Batura)

Lukon's running a cheeky takeover over in Maira Merani.
Malice Osha
Khan of Aren
Royal of Aren
Duke of Alowca
Margrave of Alowca

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Letter from Ceasar Magdalen   (2 days, 9 hours ago)
Message sent to all allies in the region Vir el Mari heights (16 recipients)
If they move to Iglavik we will loot surrounding regions, They are too far ahead to catch up and had a good head start after Alebad, If Actrial had is way we would have lost Alebad already, his ideas would have put our forces nowhere near Alebad when it was threatened he thinks 9k militia is enough to take on 23k mobile with siege engines. Sometimes you just have to hold your nerve. They want us to go the Windaria way so they can either slaughter us in open ground or turn back to Alebad.

Thank you for your support Warlord Eadwulf.

Respectfully Yours
Ceasar Magdalen
Minister of War of Oritolon
Knight of Alebad

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Request from Ceasar Magdalen   (2 days, 8 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
Grand Justiciar May Ketchum,

I second that request.

Respectfully Yours.
Ceasar Magdalen
Minister of War of Oritolon
Knight of Alebad

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Letter from Johan Jaron   (2 days, 8 hours ago)
Message sent to all allies in the region Vir el Mari heights (16 recipients)
We'd appreciate if Oritolon sorts out its military command before sending out conflicting orders to Aren. Best keep conflict in the war room in the war room. Also I would recommend a misdirection, maybe just to gauge their response.

Best Regards,
Johan Jaron
Lawgiver of Aren
Baron of Irdalni

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Report from Johan Jaron   (2 days, 8 hours ago)
Message sent to all allies in the region Vir el Mari heights (16 recipients)

Scout Report (Windaria): Scribe Note
Johan Jaron
Lawgiver of Aren
Baron of Irdalni

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Letter from Ceasar Magdalen   (2 days, 8 hours ago)
Message sent to all allies in the region Vir el Mari heights (16 recipients)
I appreciate your annoyance but Sir Actrial is a law unto himself at the moment simply ignore his requests in future, He has been reported to our legal authorities for his actions not just to myself but others.

Respectfully Yours
Ceasar Magdalen
Minister of War of Oritolon
Knight of Alebad

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Request from Ceasar Magdalen   (2 days, 8 hours ago)
Message sent to all allies in the region Vir el Mari heights (16 recipients)
If some of you have spare hours feel free to misdirect to Windaria but keep up the TO work.
Ceasar Magdalen
Minister of War of Oritolon
Knight of Alebad

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Report from Ceasar Magdalen   (2 days, 7 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
Sir Thorbjorn Blackmore, Knight of Iglavik,

This is the message you should be aware of about unconditional surrender!

Orders from Cathal Dubhaine   (7 days, 22 hours ago)
Message sent to the Generals of Colonies (4 recipients)
General Ceasar,

Oritolon has until daybreak to tender its unconditional surrender, disband all military forces stationed in Alebad and publicly acknowledge the authority of Empress Valakyrie over all its territories and dominions.
Sir Cathal Dubhaine
General of Lukon
Knight of Corali Forest
Marshal of the Army of the Black Ravens

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Ceasar Magdalen
Minister of War of Oritolon
Knight of Alebad

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Out-of-Character from Actrial Erendegard   (2 days, 7 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
- and then throw a tantrum while refusing to admit they are terrible at the game
Kevin Lee

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Letter from Axis Excelsior Erendegard   (2 days, 7 hours ago)
Message sent to all allies in the region Vir el Mari heights (16 recipients)
There is no ace in Iglavik, Caesar has led everyone to VEMH because he gets a lump in his pants whenever someone says the word "takeover". If Lukon are smart they will move Iglavik->Sovonoval->Oritolon and that will be the end of it.
Axis Excelsior Erendegard
Knight of Oritolon

[Ketchum]

I fail to see how any part of this last exchange is relevant to the case at hand.

There are very strict rules on this sub-forum. Anything that doesn't relate to the case does not belong here.


The question at hand is a very simple one:

Did the two messages quoted break the rule that says "No verbal attacks, insults or harassment of other players." or did they not?


Everything else is utterly and completely irrelevant.

Erm... I thought we want to understand the reason why Actrial wrote OOC and what is the motivation, the things that led to Actrial reply in OOC, instead of IC. There should be an issue root cause why Actrial say these OOC messages. As Velax posted asking for the information, that is why I posted the messages exchange between them.

To keep it on topic. Refer the messages where Ceasar and Bracka Magdalen reply to Actrial IC and Actrial(from what we see of his player) probably curious about why two same family characters arguing with only one of his character.

[Penchant]

Erm... I thought we want to understand the reason why Actrial wrote OOC and what is the motivation, the things that led to Actrial reply in OOC, instead of IC. There should be an issue root cause why Actrial say these OOC messages. As Velax posted asking for the information, that is why I posted the messages exchange between them.

To keep it on topic. Refer the messages where Ceasar and Bracka Magdalen reply to Actrial IC and Actrial(from what we see of his player) probably curious about why two same family characters arguing with only one of his character.

Bracka never says a thing, which I checked, in case I was simply being blind, through searching the entire page with Ctrl+F and Bracka. I do see both Actrial and Axis Excelsior (the same family) arguing against Ceasar though.

[Ketchum]

Bracka never says a thing, which I checked, in case I was simply being blind, through searching the entire page with Ctrl+F and Bracka. I do see both Actrial and Axis Excelsior (the same family) arguing against Ceasar though.

See my earlier post on page no.1, I requote below for your reference. I think we may need draw a chronology of events that led to this OOC messages.

=====

Letter from Ceasar Magdalen   (17 hours, 43 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
Marshal Actrial if we had done as you said Alebad would already be in our enemies hands!

Ceasar Magdalen
Minister of War of Oritolon
Knight of Alebad

=====

Letter from Bracka Magdalen   (17 hours, 37 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
Plus Sir Actrial you went out of your way to destroy peace terms That Prime Minister Cleatus, I'm sure would have secured by now if you hadn't stuck your nose into with insults of the very people he was trying to negotiate with.

Bracka Magdalen
Dame of Flaranyls

=====

Out-of-Character from Actrial Erendegard   (2 hours, 40 minutes ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (24 recipients)
What is it about people who
- love power and position
- are bad at the game
- argue with both characters

Kevin Lee

[Penchant]

See my earlier post on page no.1, I requote below for your reference. I think we may need draw a chronology of events that led to this OOC messages.

Yeah I wasn't thinking there, my bad. Thanks for the requote. Ok, well its certainly possible it was an accident on the part of the player of  Magdalen family as I see it happen in Arcaea with people accidentally responding with the wrong character. If he was truly curious about the two family members fighting his one, then it would make sense to ask the player about it, not say the player sucks at the game, assume (seemingly meant as an insult) he loves power and position, and then imply disagreement with the fact he argued with both characters.

[Tom]

Erm... I thought we want to understand the reason why Actrial wrote OOC and what is the motivation,

No, we don't. Why would we? If he is insulting and breaking the Social Contract, does it matter why he does it? No, it doesn't. The Social Contract is absolute. It says "Do not insult or harass other players", and not "don't insult others unless you think you have a good reason".

[Tom]

I think we may need draw a chronology of events that led to this OOC messages.

So?

It doesn't matter.


There is absolutely no justification for breaking the Social Contract. All this is just side-tracking the actual issue. Stop arguing as if you were in a court of law, you aren't.

Did he break the Social Contract? Yes or no. That is the ONLY thing that needs answering, everything else is utterly and completely irrelevant.

[Lavigna]

If Actrial was provoked to write those OOC messages then that is another case and it should be raised by him and no other and  of course be judged individually.

His actions cannot be justified just because there may be a motivation behind them and it is not the job of Magistrates to play detectives and search behind the scenes. The one who feels offended ends ups here and claims his right for justice. It's pretty simple.

If someone defends himself with offense then he automatically becomes an offender himself.

[Eirikr]

I'm not sure that voting is particularly helpful to the debate.......

I'm also quite sure it's the job of the Magistrates to do that, not general forum users regardless of rank (except Tom, of course).

[steelabjur@aol.com]

Speaking as a person who isn't a "mods camping this subforum" I think this is a pretty open and shut case. As Tom pointed out, the rules are clear and it's obvious that his intent was to insult another player. In fact I'd go so far as to say that he has used this case as a platform to continue to attack said player and others and that he sees no issues with his actions:

Point of inaccuracy, I wasn't in the army at the time, so I don't think I can be marshal. Apart from that I completely agree with what I said and wouldn't change a thing. You give orders for 6 months and then some incompetent wrecks everything in 2 weeks and won't even let you fix it because of his ego.

This wasn't the problem at all. If you haven't read Ketchum's post it's a waste of your time to post anything.
The events were
1. terrible command from Ceasar
2. called him out for terrible orders
3. reply from Ceasar in a very tiresome way with both characters
4. sent OOC message 1 with the 3 bullet points, at the same time posting new orders that aren't bad
5. predictably, Ceasar countermands the orders, obviously because he is mad that I called him bad. Obviously this isn't provable (the beloved IC shield) but as you say, he doesn't have strategic acumen and has had no legitimate strategic contribution for the past 6 months, so I really doubt it was conviction in his strategy. I don't care about this retaliation though.
6. second OOC message with final bullet point
7. Eric always reports me lol <3

Also can I get comments from people who aren't mods camping this subforum? The reasons why I would like that are pretty much explained by these posts:
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,5032.msg118610.html#msg118610 (dominance of users with titles)
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,4969.msg117198.html#msg117198 (insularity of subforums)

I can understand why people don't come here though. Most of the cases are very petty.

Your spam about irrelevance is just covering yourself. Surely you have to admit that you shouldn't talk about a case if you haven't got at least a decent understanding of events. You basically admitted to not reading the thread, and jumping straight into your judgement.

--

Did you even read that second post? Yes I want everyone to see how inane this subforum is (secret ballot by a council with no summary of judgement, worst legal system ever), and how it is dominated by people (like you)(which I specify, or I'll probably be accused of being passive aggressive) who:

I don't know if it is proper for me to suggest this, but I recommend that the Magistrates take into consideration the attitude he has displayed in this thread to yourselves and his fellow players when deciding sentencing.