Dwilight IC and OOC updates and news!

[Triggster]

We managed to build a SA temple right next to Caerwyn and not start a war (much to the displeasure of a few SA people), does that deserve a medal? or do only anti SA actions get those?

Gives medal

Considering one of my characters is a noble of the Morek Empire and a full member of SA I also also deem this medal worthy (note: the medals aren't real ). Sorry about my last post, I just found it amusing tis' all.

[Vellos]

Or some sort of Monarchy - Republic mashed up attempt there. Vellos knows a bit more behind that history, as my character had the pleasure of screwing the original plans up. My character was actually sad the King abdicated, even though he was strongly against him. I still wonder how we would have pulled off our alternate plans. It's a pity that never materialized.

Marche is constantly screwing up the plans of the Vellos Family. An Anaris loyalist in Rio and now, even in Dwilight, where our characters are friends, you still had to go and have your king abdicate and take his place, instead of doing something awesome and shaking up Maroccidens. Fie on you! Fie!

The politics of Maroccidens are extremely entertaining to me. Terran has constant back-and-forth between Triunist radicals and Astroist radicals (or really just our one Astroist radical), with the moderates on each side trying to maneuver their allies into positions of power while keeping the realm together... and meanwhile, monsters. Oh, and trees.

[Glaumring the Fox]

Asylon is squished in the middle of SA and VE , makes for an interesting realm...

[Indirik]

This precisely. And you can't ban priests unless they are caught in the act of doing something nasty. SA priests had nothing to do there, it was clear they were just setting up the grounds for an invasion, as all leaked messages from SA clearly paint.

OK, straight OOC Truth, from the player who's character gave the order that resulted in Elsebeth going to Thusloma: The above statements are both wrong and misleading:

1) SA priests had every right to be in Thulsoma. Thulsoma was formed by an SA realm as an SA colony. There were SA temples in a couple regions of Thulsoma, including Storm's Keep. 99.9% of the peasantry in the realm followed SA. In fact, SA priests had as much right to be in Thulsoma as VE priests have to be in Asylon. The parallels between the two situations (Sanguis Astroism/Thulsoma and Verdis Elementum/Asylon) are actually pretty remarkable.

2) SA had no intention at all to invade Thulsoma. It was a crappy little two-bit, tin-pot dictatorship that was so far below the radar that no one cared about it. No one ever thought that Haruka would ever manage to resurrect its corpse and make something worthwhile out of it. We didn't want the land. We didn't want to attack it or kill it. It is true that there was one or two people who were members of SA who probably wanted to attack them. Like Glaumring, who was the leader of the originally colony that failed. Or Allison, the insane lady who drilled holes in her head and wants to basically kill everyone that isn't SA, and about 2/3rds of those who are. But you'll have those kinds of nutjobs in any realm/religion. That does not make the entire religion bent on destruction of all non-SA realms.

3) Up until the time the crusade was called by my character, there was no SA plan for aggression against Thulsoma. Our plan was to ignore Thulsoma, and let the Libero Empire deal with them. The Libero Empire's war with Thulsoma had no religious basis at all. It happened at a time that was convenient for Sanguis Astroism, but we had nothing to do with starting it. If LE had been a bit more successful at fighting Thulsoma, SA would never have gotten involved.

4) Messages from Glaumring or Allison are simply not an accurate depiction of any position or policy of SA, either official or unofficial. Neither one ever had the power to make policy decisions for SA, or give any kind of orders that would result in an SA attack on Thulsoma.

Notably SA's will to have it illegal for any realm to banish SA priest preaching, lest all the SA realms invade. Obviously, non-SA realms don't like this.

OK, that's just so wrong, I can't even argue with it any more than say that there's nothing in that statement that bears any resemblance to reality.

And note, this is all form an OOC perspective. This isn't any kind of propaganda or posturing. This is the straight truth on the situation.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

Storm's Keep did have level 7 walls or something. That was interesting, I guess.

The entire north part of Dwilight composed of Averoth, Summerdale, and formerly Thulsoma, are all confusing to me. I know absolutely nothing of Averoth except that it originally was an unsanctioned colony by some dudes from Morek. And Allison tried to sabotage it and got protested out of office. Then there was a crusade declared against them, and sometime along the way it stopped. Since my dude was being called a heretic during the time, I kinda missed out on what happened with Averoth. Then it rebelled or something and it turned into some tyranny with German-sounding council names.

Summerdale was from Raivan Empire, and was supposed to continue in Springdale's legacy. (If Summerdale also dies, will we next see an Autumndale?  ) I also have no clue what's up with that realm, but Bowie was part of Summerdale when he supposedly decided to run around Volcano Nightscree and other such places crowing his head off about being an Immortal Dark Demon Dragon Prince Count Vampire Pixie Fairy or whatever the heck it was. So all I know is that Summerdale's king is pretty darn defiant and likes to talk tough.

Oh, and Thulsoma's dead. That's about what I know about them during Haruka's reign.

I also think I'm the one and only true heretic of SA. Heck yeah! 

[Indirik]

In Terran, one of our lords managed to unilaterally sack an Astroist temple and get away with it.

Yeah, I remember that. The message you sent about it was pretty funny.

But regardless, the fact that Terran is just too far away for SA to do anything about it is really the main reason that nothing was done. Do you really expect Astrum, Corsanctum, and Morek to send huge armies all the way across the island, land in Paisly, and march up to Chesney or Chateau Saffalore? It's not like Caerwyn would let us march through their lands. We have some big armies and a lot of gold, but there are still limits on what can be done.

[Adriddae]

Asylon is squished in the middle of SA and VE , makes for an interesting realm...

I think there are only a couple SA members left.

[Peri]

Storm's Keep did have level 7 walls or something. That was interesting, I guess.

The entire north part of Dwilight composed of Averoth, Summerdale, and formerly Thulsoma, are all confusing to me. I know absolutely nothing of Averoth except that it originally was an unsanctioned colony by some dudes from Morek. And Allison tried to sabotage it and got protested out of office. Then there was a crusade declared against them, and sometime along the way it stopped. Since my dude was being called a heretic during the time, I kinda missed out on what happened with Averoth. Then it rebelled or something and it turned into some tyranny with German-sounding council names.

Yes Averoth was formed as an illegal Morekian colony, we sabotaged it but some of the refugees from the almost dead Everguard (if I am not wrong) ran there and developed it. Since however they were torenists and declared enemies of SA, Astrum decided to go there and burn down all their temples killing those in between. That made their torenist core to run away and left the realm more or less open to whomever wanted to. The reformed Averoth claimed freedom of religion and was left on its own. No one in SA really cared about them anymore, as they seemed reasonably calm neighbors. Indirik knows better the story as he was the one burning everything.

When the war against Thulsoma brewed up, at the beginning Averoth was more or less on Thulsoma's side to avoid the penetration of Libero in the Nifel peninsula. At first when Morek got involved (and I stress that it was more because Haruka executed a Morekian noble than for the crusade by itself) they were warned we had no interest whatsoever in putting a foothold in the nifel peninsula, and they remained outside the war.

Then, once Thulsoma was almost dead - going from almost 9k cs behind lvl7 walls to just a couple thousands cs and no peasants to draft - they suddenly entered storms Keep that was in the process of being looted by Morek without any reasonable motivation, basically winning a free ticket for annihilation at morek's hand. The plot behind this was just to provoke Astrum in the hope Caerwyn would attack them, as it was also whispered to us by the rebel leader of a recently failed rebellion there, but something went wrong apparently.

As things are unfolding now, I can't quit thinking that the ruler of Averoth is willingly sacrifying his own realm in the hope someone else would gang against SA -and for the moment only madina heed the call, another unexplainable act- because his deliberate refusal of Astrum's peace offers and not even attempted reconciliation with Summerdale are just too weird to explain otherwise.

[Chenier]

OK, straight OOC Truth, from the player who's character gave the order that resulted in Elsebeth going to Thusloma: The above statements are both wrong and misleading:

1) SA priests had every right to be in Thulsoma. Thulsoma was formed by an SA realm as an SA colony. There were SA temples in a couple regions of Thulsoma, including Storm's Keep. 99.9% of the peasantry in the realm followed SA. In fact, SA priests had as much right to be in Thulsoma as VE priests have to be in Asylon. The parallels between the two situations (Sanguis Astroism/Thulsoma and Verdis Elementum/Asylon) are actually pretty remarkable.

2) SA had no intention at all to invade Thulsoma. It was a crappy little two-bit, tin-pot dictatorship that was so far below the radar that no one cared about it. No one ever thought that Haruka would ever manage to resurrect its corpse and make something worthwhile out of it. We didn't want the land. We didn't want to attack it or kill it. It is true that there was one or two people who were members of SA who probably wanted to attack them. Like Glaumring, who was the leader of the originally colony that failed. Or Allison, the insane lady who drilled holes in her head and wants to basically kill everyone that isn't SA, and about 2/3rds of those who are. But you'll have those kinds of nutjobs in any realm/religion. That does not make the entire religion bent on destruction of all non-SA realms.

3) Up until the time the crusade was called by my character, there was no SA plan for aggression against Thulsoma. Our plan was to ignore Thulsoma, and let the Libero Empire deal with them. The Libero Empire's war with Thulsoma had no religious basis at all. It happened at a time that was convenient for Sanguis Astroism, but we had nothing to do with starting it. If LE had been a bit more successful at fighting Thulsoma, SA would never have gotten involved.

4) Messages from Glaumring or Allison are simply not an accurate depiction of any position or policy of SA, either official or unofficial. Neither one ever had the power to make policy decisions for SA, or give any kind of orders that would result in an SA attack on Thulsoma.

OK, that's just so wrong, I can't even argue with it any more than say that there's nothing in that statement that bears any resemblance to reality.

And note, this is all form an OOC perspective. This isn't any kind of propaganda or posturing. This is the straight truth on the situation.

Who says we have to care how Thulsoma started out? That we have to recognize SA claims to it?

Second of all, it's not because you didn't plan something that other SA members didn't.

Lastly, that's information that's running around.

You aren't the head of SA, Indirik, much less do you represent every single soul in that religion. SA is filled with a lot of people with different aspirations, that your reasons to do X were Y doesn't mean others didn't do it for Z.

[Indirik]

Who says we have to care how Thulsoma started out? That we have to recognize SA claims to it?

For the same reason that we have to recognize VE's claims to Asylon? Founder's claim is what Caerwyn used to force Asylon to kick out Sanguis Astroism. So, no, you don't *have* to accept SA's founders claim to Thulsoma. But to ingore that claim while enforcing it on Asylon is outright hypocritical.

Second of all, it's not because you didn't plan something that other SA members didn't.

You're correct. But since, at the time, my character was the leader of SA, appointed by the Holy Prophet himself to rule in his stead, I would think that I would have the right to speak officially on SA's behalf. And you didn't say that it was some particular member's plan to do something. You made the claim that it was SA's plan. And that was not the case.

Lastly, that's information that's running around.

And it's wrong. Which is why I'm taking the opportunity here in the forums, in an OOC discussion, to clear them up.

You aren't the head of SA, Indirik

At the time that most of this went down, I was. I think that' gives my word a bit of official-ness to it, regarding these particular incidents.

, much less do you represent every single soul in that religion. SA is filled with a lot of people with different aspirations, that your reasons to do X were Y doesn't mean others didn't do it for Z.

Of course not. But I can authoritatively say what was and was not SA's goals, aims, and policies. So when you make claims about SA's official policies, I can categorically deny them. When you claim that SA did something to lay the ground work for an invasion, that's simply wrong. Did some particular person in SA want to invade Thulsoma? Of course. But that does not make it SA's goal in sending Elsbeth to Storm's Keep. I can guarantee you that this was not the case.

So, no, I can't speak all-inclusively for every noble who was a member of SA. I can, for that period of time, speak authoritatively on the overall religion's goals and policies. Which is how I know your claims regarding SA's policies are false.

But neither can you speak conclusively for all of SA when all you have is one or two messages from people who were not in charge at that time, and not empowered to make official declarations are decisions. That would be like me taking a single message from some run of the mill knight in Caerwyn and loudly proclaiming it to be official Caerwyn policy.

[Vellos]

Yeah, I remember that. The message you sent about it was pretty funny.

But regardless, the fact that Terran is just too far away for SA to do anything about it is really the main reason that nothing was done. Do you really expect Astrum, Corsanctum, and Morek to send huge armies all the way across the island, land in Paisly, and march up to Chesney or Chateau Saffalore? It's not like Caerwyn would let us march through their lands. We have some big armies and a lot of gold, but there are still limits on what can be done.

Oh, I know it was mostly just a distance thing; the same issue you now have with Madina, I guess. It's just so darn far away.

I think there are actually few religions with a more complex relationship to SA than Triunism. Triunist priests, Metis and Hireshmont, are quite moderate, advocate compromise, and view SA as a variant. The powerful laity, such as the temple-sacker Dallas and another guy O'domus, tend to view Astroists as a bit above snakes and a bit below rats. So when they do something hostile against SA, like sack a temple, I end up having to clean up their mess.

I'm curious how that all looked on your end, though. Did the issue even get much discussion?

[Triggster]

Please all note the new "Sanguis Astroism" thread that Vellos created.
If you feel the need to reply to Indirik's message Chénier please do so in that thread where you may debate the evils of SA to your hearts content. However as far as I see it,  Indirik has the best grounds to comment on SA's actions OOC in a factual manner considering his character was in charge at the time of the events in question.

[Indirik]

Yes Averoth was formed as an illegal Morekian colony, we sabotaged it but some of the refugees from the almost dead Everguard (if I am not wrong) ran there and developed it. Since however they were torenists and declared enemies of SA, Astrum decided to go there and burn down all their temples killing those in between. That made their torenist core to run away and left the realm more or less open to whomever wanted to. The reformed Averoth claimed freedom of religion and was left on its own. No one in SA really cared about them anymore, as they seemed reasonably calm neighbors. Indirik knows better the story as he was the one burning everything.

I think that's a pretty fair account of the wars that lead to the death of Everguard, the formation of Averoth, and then Astrum's war on Averoth. We left Averoth when we had managed to destroy all the Torenist temples, and tear apart a fair bit of Averoth's infrastructure.

Interestingly enough, Sextus Severus, current ruler of Averoth, appeared as a new character in Yggdramir on the same day that Astrum's armies arrived in the region to attack Averoth. Basically an hour or two after Sextus' character was created he found himself in a battle, alone against Astrums' entire army. We exchanged a few letters about the irony of the situation. A few weeks later he wrote a letter to my character offering to turn Averoth into some kind of vassal state of Astrum.  I passed it along to the ruler of Astrum, but nothing ever happened with it. A few months later Sextus led a rebellion and took control of Averoth. By that time I don't think there were any of the original Everguard Torenists left in the realm. By now I think the realm is made up mostly of people brought in by the ruling powers, as well as refugee "Saxons" from Thulsoma.

I do have to say that the Averothians have done a remarkable job of building their realm. Averoth boasts some impressive walls, lots of recruiting centers, and a very large army. Especially when you take into consideration the tiny income of their realm.

When the war against Thulsoma brewed up, at the beginning Averoth was more or less on Thulsoma's side to avoid the penetration of Libero in the Nifel peninsula. At first when Morek got involved (and I stress that it was more because Haruka executed a Morekian noble than for the crusade by itself) they were warned we had no interest whatsoever in putting a foothold in the nifel peninsula, and they remained outside the war.

Yeah, after the original declaration of the crusade, it languished for quite a while. It only really gained ground when Bustoarsenzio get mad and wrote a big rant about it. Fear Busto's powers of persuasion. 

Then, once Thulsoma was almost dead - going from almost 9k cs behind lvl7 walls to just a couple thousands cs and no peasants to draft - they suddenly entered storms Keep that was in the process of being looted by Morek without any reasonable motivation, basically winning a free ticket for annihilation at morek's hand. The plot behind this was just to provoke Astrum in the hope Caerwyn would attack them, as it was also whispered to us by the rebel leader of a recently failed rebellion there, but something went wrong apparently.

Averoth obviously wanted to provoke the war with Astrum. That was obvious from Sextus' message when we declared. I don't have a copy of the message, but it was something like: "Finally!" Caerwyn's quick reaction in threatening war as well points to a fair amount of planning and collaboration between them. Maybe not at the ruler/council level, but at some level there there had to be collaboration between the two.

As things are unfolding now, I can't quit thinking that the ruler of Averoth is willingly sacrifying his own realm in the hope someone else would gang against SA -and for the moment only madina heed the call, another unexplainable act- because his deliberate refusal of Astrum's peace offers and not even attempted reconciliation with Summerdale are just too weird to explain otherwise.

I *think* that Averoth's ruler has been pretty inactive lately. The messages from some of the people in Averoth in response to our invasion has been a lot of "Our ruler is never around, and never tells us what's going on." Most of them so far refuse to believe that Astrum sent Averoth an unconditional peace offer.

[Indirik]

I'm curious how that all looked on your end, though. Did the issue even get much discussion?

Not really. We passed it along to Labell to deal with, him being a priest of SA, and a bigwig in Terran. From there, it mostly got dropped on the floor and forgotten. Which was fine with me. I don't think your letter even got passed on to anyone other than the Elders of SA. If I had passed along tot he full members that the temple of SA in Terran (I forget the region) was being used to stable cows and horses, there would have been a big call for an immediate invasion. So in the name of discretion and sanity, I sat at my desk and chuckled, and rather quickly resolved to bury that message.

[Chenier]

Please all note the new "Sanguis Astroism" thread that Vellos created.
If you feel the need to reply to Indirik's message Chénier please do so in that thread where you may debate the evils of SA to your hearts content. However as far as I see it,  Indirik has the best grounds to comment on SA's actions OOC in a factual manner considering his character was in charge at the time of the events in question.

As a player, I don't really care. I play on Dwilight because I have an established character there and because I can't have 3 nobles on Beluaterra. So I really couldn't care less about SA, as a player, and therefore have no interest in OOC discussions about it.