Clan in Fontan and Aurvandil

[Kellaine]

Ok just thought I would ask, did not know it was that long ago. thanks anyway

[Geronus]

I thought Magistrates would discuss things within themselves. I don't think letting random people voice their opinions is productive. Why not maybe invite a couple people who are involved with the matter?

We can and do do this. However, the opinions of the community also matter. In this case I can't see that it's been very productive, but that's because about half the posters have either attempted to divert the discussion to other matters or have allowed themselves to be diverted.

At this point I suspect nothing else useful is going to come out of this thread.

[NoblesseChevaleresque]

To those in doubt of gold being sent in Aurvandil, these are just a collection from Mendicant, working like clockwork in silence my ass.

Letter from Scyhtherion Principe   (30 days, 10 hours ago)
High Sovereign,

I will need an extra 50 gold or so if I am to pay my men next turn.

Scyhtherion Principe (Knight of Candiels)

Letter from Gwrtheyrnion Vertigern   (30 days, 9 hours ago)
I cannot pay my men out of my current means, for this I will need assistance, as well as to get enough gold to hire more men and enlarge my forces.

Gwrtheyrnion Vertigern (Lord)

Letter from Atticus Nightshroud   (29 days, 7 hours ago)
High Sovereign,

I have forty men under my command, if I am sent more gold I can and will enlarge my forces.

Atticus Nightshroud
Earl of Agl

Request from Rosewill Zurn   (28 days, 23 hours ago)
High Sovereign Mendicant,

I would like to request 50 gold to pay my men and enlarge my unit to maximum size.

Rosewill Zurn (Noble)

Gold Transfer   (28 days, 15 hours ago)
You received bonds worth 50 gold from Aethelflaed.

Gold Transfer   (28 days, 15 hours ago)
You received bonds worth 25 gold from Aethelflaed.


Letter from Sothcynning Lurdigala   (28 days, 3 hours ago)
High Sovereign, may I be sent more gold to hire more men with?

Sothcynning Lurdigala
Marshal of the Chevaliers Disith d'Auziwandilaz

Letter from Herousmalswyrd Metisette   (28 days, 2 hours ago)
Monarch,I need spare funds to help me pay my men.

Herousmalswyrd Metisette (Knight of Agl)

Letter from Serpico Radnor Farron   (28 days, 1 hour ago)
High Sovereign,

May I have 50 gold?

Serpico Radnor Farron (Knight of Zerujil)

Letter from Irisviel Rivaille   (28 days ago)
High Sovereign,

I will need gold to pay my men, if you have gold to spare.

Irisviel Rivaille (Noble)

Letter from Xiao Lan Feng   (27 days, 23 hours ago)
High Sovereign Mendicant, I direly need more gold to repair my equipment.

Xiao Lan Feng (Noble)

Letter from Xiao Lan Feng   (27 days, 23 hours ago)
Thank you, but I will require more gold to finish repairing my equipment.

Xiao Lan Feng (Noble)


Letter from Fal'Cie Nachtmahr   (27 days, 5 hours ago)
I will need extra gold to finish repairing my soldiers equipment damage High Sovereign.

Fal'Cie Nachtmahr
Marshal of the Chevaliers Hausos d'Auziwandilaz


Letter from Sarit Noyan   (27 days, 1 hour ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (43 recipients)
Also, if you need gold the Marquessate has wealth vaulted away to be used for military campaigning. Send me a request.

Sarit Noyan
Arbiter Of Justice and Royal Purser of Aurvandil, Duke of Marquessate Of Evanburg, Marquess of Evanburg


Letter from Delreth Dranal   (26 days, 7 hours ago)
My Lord,

I kindly request gold to enlarge my special forces squad, they are an excellent group, however  they are a very small group, if you could lend me the trivial amount of 75 gold, i will be able to increase the size of my unit considerably. Thank you my lord.

-Delreth

Delreth Dranal (Noble)


Gold Transfer   (25 days, 16 hours ago)
You received bonds worth 100 gold from Sarit.


Report from Sarit Noyan   (25 days, 16 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (43 recipients)
Gold sent to Sir Vahanian and Sir Reign Beaux.

Taxes have also been called.

Sarit Noyan
Arbiter Of Justice and Royal Purser of Aurvandil, Duke of Marquessate Of Evanburg, Marquess of Evanburg

Request from Tayron Sutherland   (25 days, 15 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (43 recipients)
I require additional gold to keep my men in the field.

Tayron Sutherland (Knight of Tubrel)

Letter from Faramond Gallien Griffirtaen   (25 days, 14 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (43 recipients)
I had 100 gold spare so I sent it to Sir Tayron.

Faramond Gallien Griffirtaen (Noble)

Letter from Fal'Cie Nachtmahr   (25 days, 7 hours ago)
I request more fund before I move out.

Fal'Cie Nachtmahr
Marshal of the Chevaliers Hausos d'Auziwandilaz

Letter from Serpico Radnor Farron   (25 days, 7 hours ago)
High Sovereign, I currently do not have the gold to pay my men on campaign.

Serpico Radnor Farron (Knight of Zerujil)

Letter from Jaegr Alecsi Gryffine   (25 days, 6 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (43 recipients)
Also putting in a request for spare gold.

Jaegr Alecsi Gryffine (Noble)

Letter from Raviel Armityle   (25 days, 6 hours ago)
I will require more funds on this march.

Raviel Armityle (Knight of Agl)

Letter from Gwrtheyrnion Vertigern   (25 days, 6 hours ago)
Highest Sovereign,

Are you able to send me extra gold?

Gwrtheyrnion Vertigern (Lord)

Request from Irisviel Rivaille   (25 days, 6 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (43 recipients)
I need another 50 gold before I can realistically start marching out on campaign.

Irisviel Rivaille (Noble)

Letter from Maria Alexandrovna Eudoxia Illithian   (25 days, 5 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (43 recipients)
I donated my extra gold.

Maria Alexandrovna Eudoxia Illithian (Noble)


Gold Transfer   (25 days, 4 hours ago)
You received bonds worth 150 gold from Braeonith Somerled.

Request from Delreth Dranal   (16 days, 22 hours ago)
My Lord

My unit was wiped out in the battle of Madina and i got permission from Sir Allomere to come back and refit my Special Forces units, however, it is very expensive to buy new special forces and therefore i ask to receive funding for my unit.

If i could get 100 gold it should be sufficient to refit my unit and return to active duty, thank you very much my lord.

-Delreth

Delreth Dranal (Noble)

Gold Transfer   (10 days, 10 hours ago)
You received bonds worth 100 gold from Sidonie.

Letter from Baldwin Amalric   (9 days, 9 hours ago)
High Sovereign, I request more funds so I may enlarge my unit.

Baldwin Amalric (Noble)

Letter from Baldwin Amalric   (9 days, 9 hours ago)
Thank you lord.

Baldwin Amalric (Noble)


Gold Transfer   (9 days, 5 hours ago)
You received bonds worth 100 gold from Reign Beaux.

Letter from Serpico Radnor Farron   (7 days, 6 hours ago)
I will need more gold once I arrive in the Imperial City, High Sovereign.

Serpico Radnor Farron (Knight of Zerujil)


Letter from Vahanian Blint   (7 days, 1 hour ago)
My Lord,

Should you require an arm to flex and use as you will you have but to ask, I am at your disposal.

-Regards,

Vahanian Blint (Knight of Candiels)

Letter from Sothcynning Lurdigala   (6 days, 21 hours ago)
High Sovereign, may I have more gold to recruit?

Sothcynning Lurdigala
Marshal of the Chevaliers Disith d'Auziwandilaz

Request from Hyperion Harte   (6 days, 13 hours ago)
High Sovereign,

I could use 100-150 gold to recruit more men and repair the damage that our equipment has.

Many thanks,

Sir Hyperion Harte (Knight of Candiels)

Request from Jaegr Alecsi Gryffine   (5 days, 21 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (45 recipients)
Does anyone have 50 gold for unit payment?

Jaegr Alecsi Gryffine
Viscount of Lugagun

High Sovereign, may I have fifty gold before I move out?

Earendil Archeanis (Knight of Agl)

Letter from Claire de Hauteville   (4 days ago)
High Sovereign,

I will require just over 200 gold for me to enlarge the Margravine's Marines recruitment centre.

Claire de Hauteville
Countess of Tower Fatmilak

Letter from Atticus Nightshroud   (4 days ago)
High Sovereign,

If you have spare gold, I will need it to repair my unit and hire more men.

Atticus Nightshroud
Earl of Agl

Letter from Claire de Hauteville   (3 days, 6 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (45 recipients)
Thank you Lord Reign Beaux and High Sovereign Mendicant for sending me gold.

Claire de Hauteville
Countess of Tower Fatmilak

[NoblesseChevaleresque]

Now for the orders in Aurvandil, and these will just be the orders sent to the realm at large, and the Rois Propiétaire Gardes Impériaux, not counting the other two armies.

Orders from Allomere de' Striguile   (30 days, 4 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (42 recipients)
Continue homeward. I want battle reports published.

Allomere de' Striguile
Knight Hausos At Arms of Aurvandil, Viscount of Zerujil

Orders from Allomere de' Striguile   (25 days, 15 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (43 recipients)
Chevaliers!

We move out again, and this time we shall tear the heart from Madina.

Cash all your bonds, pay your men.

All Units set travel to Tower Fatmilak. Set next destination to Fatmilak.

Vive le Souverain!
Ave Auziwandilaz!

Allomere de' Striguile
Knight Hausos At Arms of Aurvandil, Viscount of Zerujil

Orders from Allomere de' Striguile   (24 days, 15 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (43 recipients)
Chevaliers!

Continue travel to Bol, next destination Lugagun!

Allomere de' Striguile
Knight Hausos At Arms of Aurvandil, Viscount of Zerujil

Orders from Allomere de' Striguile   (24 days, 15 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (43 recipients)
Make sure you use next destination orders too, some of you are not doing it.

Allomere de' Striguile
Knight Hausos At Arms of Aurvandil, Viscount of Zerujil


Orders from Allomere de' Striguile   (24 days, 4 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (43 recipients)
Sir Delreth, Sir Panathalas, Sir Colwin, sail from Candiels to Tower Fatmilak now.

Allomere de' Striguile
Knight Hausos At Arms of Aurvandil, Viscount of Zerujil

Orders from Allomere de' Striguile   (24 days, 4 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (43 recipients)
Chevaliers,

Continue to Lugagun.

Infantry : Front, Normal, Line
Archers : Middle, Normal, Skirmish

Vive le Souverain!
Ave Auziwandilaz!

Allomere de' Striguile
Knight Hausos At Arms of Aurvandil, Viscount of Zerujil

Orders from Allomere de' Striguile   (23 days, 15 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (44 recipients)
Everyone not in Lugagun, Be here : Now.

Allomere de' Striguile
Knight Hausos At Arms of Aurvandil, Viscount of Zerujil


Orders from Allomere de' Striguile   (22 days, 15 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (44 recipients)
Chevaliers!

Pay your men if able.

Lugagun ; Full Day move to Madina Gardens. (OOC Two Turn) Delay Arrival.

Bol ; set next destination through Lugagun to Madina Gardens

Infantry : Front, Normal, Line
Archers : Middle, Normal, Skirmish

Vive le Souverain!
Ave Auziwandilaz!

Allomere de' Striguile
Knight Hausos At Arms of Aurvandil, Viscount of Zerujil

Orders from Allomere de' Striguile   (21 days, 15 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (45 recipients)
Chevaliers! Well fought and well won. The Rebel Pirates were once again no match for us!

Rip down the Palisade then burn the region. Loot for tax gold if you need it first and send your reports to the realm.

Save 4 hours though.

Allomere de' Striguile
Knight Hausos At Arms of Aurvandil, Viscount of Zerujil

Orders from Allomere de' Striguile   (21 days, 4 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (44 recipients)
Chevaliers!

We move to once again strike the Pirate-haven of Madina. We shall make the rebel capital burn for defying the High Sovereign.

Begin full-day movement to Madina (OOC Two Turns) Make sure to Delay Arrival.

Infantry : Front, Normal, Line
Archers : Middle, Normal, Skirmish

Vive le Souverain!
Ave Auziwandilaz!

Allomere de' Striguile
Knight Hausos At Arms of Aurvandil, Viscount of Zerujil

Orders from Allomere de' Striguile   (20 days, 2 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (44 recipients)
Chevaliers,

Destroy this city. Raise fortifications if you can, loot and plunder if you can't.

Vive le Souverain!
Ave Auziwandilaz!

Allomere de' Striguile
Knight Hausos At Arms of Aurvandil, Viscount of Zerujil

Orders from Allomere de' Striguile   (19 days, 15 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (44 recipients)
Chevaliers Hausos d'Auziwandilaz : burn Madina City. Exterminate the rebels. No Mercy for the High Sovereign's Enemies!

Chevaliers Disith d'Auziwandilaz : attack Madina Gardens, full day (OOC Two turn) move. Once you are there exterminate the militia and burn the region rogue.

Rois Propriétaire Gardes Imperiaux : burn Madina City. Exterminate the rebels. No Mercy for the High Sovereign's Enemies!

Exceptions : Sir Atticus, make sure you move to Madina City before sunset. Sir Jaegr, remain in Madina City, do not follow the Disith.

Allomere de' Striguile
Knight Hausos At Arms of Aurvandil, Viscount of Zerujil

Orders from Allomere de' Striguile   (18 days, 15 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (44 recipients)
Chevaliers Hausos d'Auziwandilaz : Continue to burn Madina City. Level the fortifications and exterminate the rebels.

Chevaliers Disith d'Auziwandilaz : Pillage and Loot Madina Gardens rogue. Take every gold piece you can find, and burn every granary.

Rois Propriétaire Gardes Imperiaux : Continue to burn Madina City. Level the fortifications and exterminate the rebels.

Allomere de' Striguile
Knight Hausos At Arms of Aurvandil, Viscount of Zerujil

Orders from Allomere de' Striguile   (17 days, 16 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (44 recipients)
Continue as ordered. Rip these walls down.

Allomere de' Striguile
Knight Hausos At Arms of Aurvandil, Viscount of Zerujil

Orders from Allomere de' Striguile   (14 days, 16 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (45 recipients)
Make sure you are paying your men every day if you can. That gives you a week in the bag before you need to refit.

Anyone else who does have to refit annoucne your actions to the realm before you leave.

Allomere de' Striguile
Knight Hausos At Arms of Aurvandil, Viscount of Zerujil


Orders from Allomere de' Striguile   (14 days, 16 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (45 recipients)
Also you should only be refitting for payment needs. Unit damage is irrelevant.

Allomere de' Striguile
Knight Hausos At Arms of Aurvandil, Viscount of Zerujil

Orders from Allomere de' Striguile   (14 days, 4 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (45 recipients)
Chevaliers Disith d'Auziwandilaz : Refit in the Imperial City.

Allomere de' Striguile
Knight Hausos At Arms of Aurvandil, Viscount of Zerujil

Orders from Allomere de' Striguile   (14 days, 4 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (45 recipients)
Chevaliers Hausos d'Auziwandilaz : Continue to burn Madina City rogue.

Rois Propriétaire Gardes Imperiaux : Continue to burn Madina City rogue.

Allomere de' Striguile
Knight Hausos At Arms of Aurvandil, Viscount of Zerujil

Orders from Allomere de' Striguile   (13 days, 4 hours ago)
Message sent to everyone in your realm (45 recipients)
Chevaliers, withdraw to the Imperial City.

We have done all we need to do.

Allomere de' Striguile
Knight Hausos At Arms of Aurvandil, Viscount of Zerujil

[GoldPanda]

I realize that the final decision is up to the Magistrates, but I will offer my humble opinion on the matter.

I'm ignoring the charges of "vote pooling" and "mass protests", because I have not witnessed this personally in Fontan, and the people who have claimed to witness this did not give much context. I would say whether it is abusive depends entirely on the context. Certainly there are circumstances where voting or protesting someone out of office is perfectly justified, and certainly the player whose noble is being kicked out of office might vehemently disagree. And a group of nobles deliberately causing trouble within a realm could have IC justifications as well.

I'm reluctant to immediately reach for the "Social Contract violation" as a conclusion. If there were no IC justifications whatsoever, then that is certainly anomalous and probably abusive.

So the pattern that I agree is present is:

• extremely efficient economy, w/o IC communications (?)
• extremely efficient military
• mass migrations to the same realm

As for these behavior, I also agree that they are are unfair from an OOC perspective, but players can and do achieve any and all of the above without the aid of clans. Many realms on AT field "elite" armies composed of the most active players in that realm, who can be counted to move every turn, do late turn movements, misdirect-and-then-move, etc. Do we punish those players for playing unfairly? Around the time Dwilight was founded, players from several destroyed or dying realms decided to migrate to Dwilight en masse to set up new realms. When Ibladesh was dying, there was talk of a mass migration to Dwilight as well. Do we punish those players for playing unfairly? Do we punish someone who can play an extremely efficient city region lord, who can squeeze every last gold coin out of his city?

If not, then I submit that we're not punishing clanners because they are playing unfairly, but because they are in clans. The fact that they are in clans enables them to do what the game mechanics encourage every player to do, except at an extreme scale.

I would not object if the Magistrates decide that clanning no longer allowed, but I do not believe such behavior, as described, violates the Social Contract as it currently stands. Tom, the Devs, and the Magistrates can establish new rules if they wish, but the current rules do not forbid what the clans are doing.

Just my two cents.

[Tom]

Do we punish those players for playing unfairly?

It has been said several times that nobody is upset about the results. The problem is how it's done. So please stop raising that strawman again and again. It's been thoroughly debunked.

[NoblesseChevaleresque]

If anyone still thinks Aurvandil works in silence, I can post to you the *hundreds* of report messages sent by our nobles to the realm over the past month. The only thing Aurvandil does in relative silence is elections, and that's because no one cares who's the next banker or judge, and the General is pretty much a cert because he does an excellent job. Aurvandil doesn't work in silence, everything is ordered I.C. every is arranged I.C. and when asked, the nobles always send reports to the realm. What I think would be more accurate would be to say Aurvandil doesn't have lots of inane in character chatter (Though we have a hell of a lot of OOC chatter).

Hell, if needs be should I publicise the realms reactions to Mendicant's conversation transcripts? Or should I send a transcript of all the letters in the realm where nobles are asking for the Madina City new realm? Perhaps I should even post copies of letters between Mendicant and other nobles of the realm where he tries to convince them to stay in Aurvandil over leaving it for the new realm? Maybe I should send all the dozens of out of character messages as well?

Aurvandil doesn't work in silence, and to anyone who thinks we do, I can provide more than enough evidence to show you to be wrong.

[NoblesseChevaleresque]

It has been said several times that nobody is upset about the results. The problem is how it's done. So please stop raising that strawman again and again. It's been thoroughly debunked.

Aurvandil is going to be split up anyway, a new realm in Madina city, and I did consider one in Tower Fatmilak but the Colony Take over feature got removed. Aurvandil has also considered making other colonies (It sort of Mendicant's thing of "Oh yeah, you can have so and so if you ask nicely)  in two months time, Aurvandil will have been unrecognisable anyway. Mendicant has made a strong point of "I don't want this in a realm" so he's giving away lots of land for new realms and encouraging nobles to leave to make new realms. If you're worried about a Clan in Aurvandil, this would either dissipate it, or give you chance to analyse who goes where and see to what extent it is actually clanning, and not just like mindedness in realms, it's a situation that could well resolve itself for Aurvandil, so I'd like for us not be forcibly split up, when we're on the verge of it anyway. That and, Mendicant has made a point of declaring these new realms won't be allies or friends of Aurvandil, and they will be fully independent, so we won't have a group of realms working together either.

As for Fontan, well I'm not in Fontan so I can't comment.

[GoldPanda]

It has been said several times that nobody is upset about the results. The problem is how it's done. So please stop raising that strawman again and again. It's been thoroughly debunked.

What I'm saying is, Tom, if I ignore the fact that they are in a clan, I can't tell the difference between how they're playing the game and how some of us are playing the game. The only difference is that we do what we do because we're in the top 5% - 10% of the non-clanner player base in terms of activity, and they do what they do because they are in a clan.

In other words, if you took the top 5% most active players on an island and stuffed them into a single realm (and make it so they can't leave), I bet you can't tell any differences between that realm and a post-clan-takeover realm.

[DamnTaffer]

Aurvandil is going to be split up anyway, a new realm in Madina city, and I did consider one in Tower Fatmilak but the Colony Take over feature got removed. Aurvandil has also considered making other colonies (It sort of Mendicant's thing of "Oh yeah, you can have so and so if you ask nicely)  in two months time, Aurvandil will have been unrecognisable anyway. Mendicant has made a strong point of "I don't want this in a realm" so he's giving away lots of land for new realms and encouraging nobles to leave to make new realms. If you're worried about a Clan in Aurvandil, this would either dissipate it, or give you chance to analyse who goes where and see to what extent it is actually clanning, and not just like mindedness in realms, it's a situation that could well resolve itself for Aurvandil, so I'd like for us not be forcibly split up, when we're on the verge of it anyway. That and, Mendicant has made a point of declaring these new realms won't be allies or friends of Aurvandil, and they will be fully independent, so we won't have a group of realms working together either.

As for Fontan, well I'm not in Fontan so I can't comment.

Assuming this is done as is, it is a nice tidy resolution. It is also a nice in character solution that would also allow better access to non saxons to land and title positions so perhaps some of you can learn how Aurvandil is so effective.

[Vellos]

What I'm saying is, Tom, if I ignore the fact that they are in a clan,

Which is where you missed the point. The mechanism matters.

It is also a nice in character solution that would also allow better access to non saxons to land and title positions so perhaps some of you can learn how Aurvandil is so effective.

Is it just me, or did you just publicly admit to an OOC clan? You need to come up with an IC excuse why non-saxons (non-clannies?) can have land and titles?

[DamnTaffer]

Which is where you missed the point. The mechanism matters.

Is it just me, or did you just publicly admit to an OOC clan? You need to come up with an IC excuse why non-saxons (non-clannies?) can have land and titles?

I am arguing on the assumption that there is a clan... that i'm not part of and didn't IC notice since arguing otherwise will have my points discounted.

Also, my point was that there will be a lot more land and titles, meaning that assuming there is a clan, they will almost certainly NEED to share titles more than if the forum wingers are to believed they are currently

[NoblesseChevaleresque]

Assuming this is done as is, it is a nice tidy resolution. It is also a nice in character solution that would also allow better access to non saxons to land and title positions so perhaps some of you can learn how Aurvandil is so effective.

Well, it will be done if we're still intact long enough to do it.

It treats this "overly effective economy/military" as the in character "problem" it is and provides an in character solution, or at least a reasonable attempt at one. This will be something done entirely in character, and roleplayed, and it's been intended for months now, it's a lot less messy than force emigrating a lot of nobles Mendicant will basically be removing from his realm anyway. Plus, quite importantly, it gives original Aurvandilan's like myself a chance to try and resolve this "problem" ourselves and not seeing the work we've done ruined because of some players from other realms.

It will dissipate the Clan/s or expose them, and if there isn't a clan then that won't be a problem, without blanket punishing a lot of players who aren't clanners anyway.

Though, if we are to be force emigrated, I hope it would be done with enough in character leeway for it to roleplayed on Dwilight properly, it is not beyond Mendicant to deport half his realm after all.

[GoldPanda]

Which is where you missed the point. The mechanism matters.

Ah, but why does it matter? Because it's unfair? I feel like we're going in circles here.

Is it just me, or did you just publicly admit to an OOC clan? You need to come up with an IC excuse why non-saxons (non-clannies?) can have land and titles?

We were told by multiple people, including Tom, that there is a clan, and to stop speculating whether there is a clan, because there is... repeatedly.

[Vellos]

Ah, but why does it matter? Because it's unfair?

YES