Ease buying regions a little

[Indirik]

If you can't muster the forces to manage to take and hold a city long enough to establish your realm, then you have no business whatsoever trying to establish your own realm. If you can't muster the TO force required, then you won't be able to muster the military force to be able to survive anyway. And if you can muster the force, then you don't need to buy the region. So the only reason you could want to buy the region, would be to avoid the government restrictions.

The restricted ways to form new realms, and the restrictions that go along with them, are intentional. When Dwilight opened, and the big colonization rush was on, this discussion happened many times. We *want* CTOs to have close ties to the mother realm. That's why the colony government is automatically set to the parent realm's.

[Stue (DC)]

Maybe you are completely right, but  why than should it not be allowed for some to try, i see no damage except to those who eventually burn money, the risk they knew about in any case.

i was thinking on initial cooperation of say 3-4 nobles, which is not so hard to gain in natural ic way, and if first, hardest step, of colony to would be skipped by such alternative, other elements, food, military defense could have been attempted within week or two after which time success would probably be known.

the main difference - such attempt would not need approval of mother realm and would be sort of adventure. properly played colony takeover is and should be tight vassal relation, this would be alternative.

i would be sad to hear that it is intentional that any new realm has to be largely independent to some of existing ones.  to me that sounds only as another obstacle to more competition. new realm would need to have or develop some cooperation rather soon, but would have some more independence initially.

of course, there could be some guys who would go alone and try it, but even that can be rp-ed, i see no damage.

if you are her first neighbor and don't like her, send expedition to destroy her at one. all that can be solved ic.

[cjnodell]

It keeps being said that it is not currently possible to form a new realm without resorting to OOC communications/planning and that allowing characters to buy regions would fix this. Not sure if I really agree with the problem or the solution. Is this a common experience, having new realm planning handled OOC?

[Indirik]

Maybe you are completely right, but  why than should it not be allowed for some to try

This:

the main difference - such attempt would not need approval of mother realm

It is 100% intentional that colonies have at least the implied support of the mother realm. It should not be possible for you and three buddies to sneak into a realm, grab 20 recruits each, and then go off start a new realm without the parent realm's approval. If you're interested in the reasoning behind this, then feel free to search the DList archives for the discussions about it.

[Stue (DC)]

yes, but that would not be colony takeover, that would be adventurous attempt of city buying, something what colony to is no; an alternative to colony takeover in forming new realm.

i completely agree that colony to needs to retain vassal relation, everything else would be artificial. why ruler of mother realm would allow colony to at all if it does not fit mother realms strategic and other objectives.

[Indirik]

This "alternative" is not desired.

[Geronus]

the mentioned idea should provide some alternative for colony takeover, while all other means to effectively establish and hold new realm would remain. that should enable more independence to the new realm than colony can provide, giving somewhat more dynamics to continental politics. colony takeover, if played ic, retains strong dependence with mother realm for long time, and cannot create such dynamics.

In that case, I misunderstood the intent. Now I have other questions though. How do you replace the mechanisms inherent in a CTO that, for example, determine the colony's government type and its first ruler? And how do you discourage people from abusing this option to create random (and probably doomed) colonies on a whim?

I have also revised my earlier pessimistic outlook when it comes to stronghold colonies. It is actually not entirely unrealistic for an enterprising noble with a lot of initial resources to become a one-man colony. Recruit a very large unit of archers or MI, get two hundred bushels of food in caravans, go buy your stronghold, and then build walls immediately. Since strongholds are actually self-sufficient in food production once they reach their maximum production/population ratio, you could feasibly hold onto a stronghold virtually by yourself. You'd just have to get lucky in getting there with an intact unit and not getting overwhelmed before you got some decent walls built. Risky, but eminently possible if you have several thousand gold at your disposal.

[Indirik]

I suppose if you have a Tyranny government, so you can hold all the government positions yourself. And are able to deal with the lack of estate support somehow. And can defend the realm against monsters yourself. And can endure the mind-numbing boredom of being a one-man realm.

Strongholds are indeed a good alternative for colonies, provided you have the right stronghold. Storm's Keep and Valkyrja are good. Balance's Retreat... is not.

[Geronus]

Set your estate to production and prepare yourself for regular policework. It shouldn't be that hard if you are diligent. With level 2+ walls, a unit of 100+ archers or (even better) MI should be able to manage against almost anything monsterish, unless it comes in the form of multiple units.

As for boredom, hey - people play solo strategy games all the time. Plus, people might show up to join you, you never know.

[Shenron]

You have experience with that?
Perhaps you never tried to actually play the game? instead of just influencing it with your OOC gang.

The whole point of this game is to persuade other characters in forming teams IN character and not out of character.

That was a real low blow dude.

No I don't have experience being part of a gang. I have experience being excluded from the gang.

Man....

[Shenron]

This is completely not true. Yes, it takes a large amount of resources. But no, it does not take OOC collusion to do so.

I am talking more of an unspoken OOC bond: i.e. there is a basic understanding that you being an "bad spirited" player if you undermine the process.

But I also mean the clanning kind. Like the kind where people pull amazing feats of conspiracy with no information being leaked at all.

[Jens Namtrah]

"it has been decided that you can only go have an adventure of your own if someone else in charge (i.e., the mother realm) says it's ok. furthermore, we won't let you even try, because we've already decided there is no way you could be successful, and we have no interest in whatever fun or roleplaying you might get out of the attempt"

can't figure out why there is such low player retention.

[Geronus]

"it has been decided that you can only go have an adventure of your own if someone else in charge (i.e., the mother realm) says it's ok. furthermore, we won't let you even try, because we've already decided there is no way you could be successful, and we have no interest in whatever fun or roleplaying you might get out of the attempt"

can't figure out why there is such low player retention.

Battlemaster is supposed to be a team game. It is *designed* so that you can only accomplish truly significant things by working with other players. Personally that's part of what I love about it. Besides, if you go off on your own, who are you roleplaying with? Yourself? Don't you think that in the course of convincing your realm to back your colony, persuading other nobles to come with you, and organizing the necessary resources that you've just created ten times the roleplaying opportunities than if you just wander off by yourself to play Dungeon Siege in Balance's Retreat or wherever? I say that if you want to play King of your own little kingdom without any input from other players, then you might as well play Medieval: Total War or some other single player strategy game.

[Indirik]

Battlemaster is supposed to be a team game. It is *designed* so that you can only accomplish truly significant things by working with other players.

QFT.

[Jens Namtrah]

Battlemaster is supposed to be a team game. It is *designed* so that you can only accomplish truly significant things by working with other players. Personally that's part of what I love about it. Besides, if you go off on your own, who are you roleplaying with? Yourself? Don't you think that in the course of convincing your realm to back your colony, persuading other nobles to come with you, and organizing the necessary resources that you've just created ten times the roleplaying opportunities than if you just wander off by yourself to play Dungeon Siege in Balance's Retreat or wherever? I say that if you want to play King of your own little kingdom without any input from other players, then you might as well play Medieval: Total War or some other single player strategy game.

You're not playing in a vacuum. You're simply following your own path and trying a few things on your own.

Too often "Battlemaster is supposed to be a team game" really means "Battlemaster has a few leaders and you are expected to follow them"

A person can create a meaningful roleplay in a realm without always being a follower on a team. If you wander off somewhere and start a new realm, as this thread is about, you don't block that event out from everyone and everything around you.

The realm exists to everyone. Your success or failure exists to everyone. The stories your character tells about his efforts become a part of the Battlemaster story. A stone dropping into a pond isn't only about the stone and the little patch of mud it lands on.

The thing I have always disliked about this game is the number of people who seem to feel that anything that is outside of their own personal interpretation of how the game was meant to be played is some sort of threat and must be suppressed. There are rules and game mechanics simply to prevent or discourage people from have freedom to act out their characters in their own style. There are players who will intentionally jump into the middle of other player's roleplays and trash them simply because they don't "fit in".

I don't see any reason why a place like Dwilight can't stand a little loosening up such as DC suggested, if it will make for greater roleplay and player fun opportunities