Modifying TMP Training Reductions

[Phellan]

You should have plopped down a lot of militia or got allies involved earlier,  or simply done some diplomatic hocus pocus and taken the boat like Jens did with 3,000cs to smash up their hinterlands. Or some similar combination.

The FACT is - we haven't been sitting around for a month because of TMP.  We've been doing it from a lack of ideas.

We have a lack of ideas because we have a lack of sharing and speaking in the realm. Instead, we have 3-4 people who play the game privately and expect the rest of us to sit around guarding the Tower.

That is PRECISELY why Tom implemented TMP. Because he wants leadership like that in Madina to fail.

Your diplomatic "hocus pocus" would have cost us a victory.   Wars are fun - being gang banged by 4 Realms, two of which are considerably larger than we are - not so much fun.   Ive already been in one Realm that loved to do as you suggested.  It got squished by 6 different Realms all at the same time.     

No - we've been sitting around because we needed time to get Fissoa into the fight and to keep Terran/D'Hara/Barca out.  NOW we are sitting around because of TMP.   Their army should have arrived this week with 10-15K CS, now that will not happen.

Perhaps you should message the Grand Council (14 players) which is roughly half our noble count - they run all our decision making processes, as Doge I have to run everything through them before I can do it effectively.

Leadership in Madina has rebuilt the Realm from 9 nobles to over 30 - if you think that's a failure of Leadership, I question exactly what you think should have been done differently.

[fodder]

my character has been sitting in soniel (a town) for a few weeks now (barring some movement out to bash some monsters) whilst the other realm has been sitting on the other side of the pond. or whatever it is.

that's not all that different from candiels and the tower.

i think the next time a map is done, there should simply not be any fortifiable choke points.


incidentally, rio hasn't had a rogue outbreak for weeks now, whether on rio land or from blighted areas. i'm wondering if rogue hasn't been turned down somehow, perhaps globally.

back in summerdale, there were quite a few rogue spawns, i think quite probably in rogue areas. can't say i've seen any in d'hara. that said, i did go pass some down in Aurvandil and did write some junk rp msg about that.

[Sacha]

What's wrong with a simple war of conquest with no other motive than expansion? There have been dozens of wars fought in history over nothing more than expansion. If your neighbor has more lands than you, would you not feel slightly jealous, even if they are an ally? And what is wrong with a bit of backstabbing for personal game? We are playing medieval nobles here after all. Personal gain is one of the most, if not the most motivation for war.

[Shizzle]

my character has been sitting in soniel (a town) for a few weeks now (barring some movement out to bash some monsters) whilst the other realm has been sitting on the other side of the pond. or whatever it is.

that's not all that different from candiels and the tower.

i think the next time a map is done, there should simply not be any fortifiable choke points.


incidentally, rio hasn't had a rogue outbreak for weeks now, whether on rio land or from blighted areas. i'm wondering if rogue hasn't been turned down somehow, perhaps globally.

back in summerdale, there were quite a few rogue spawns, i think quite probably in rogue areas. can't say i've seen any in d'hara. that said, i did go pass some down in Aurvandil and did write some junk rp msg about that.

I don't think rogue spawns have been tuned down. A week ago I might have agreed, but with the recent spawns around Fissoa in mind I cannot.

Something that I find somewhat problematic, though, is the way we (must) view rogues. Monsters or Undead should be the summum of evil, whereas in reality they make good prey and are very useful to stave off TMP. It just feels ...wrong.

[Kain]

What's wrong with a simple war of conquest with no other motive than expansion? There have been dozens of wars fought in history over nothing more than expansion. If your neighbor has more lands than you, would you not feel slightly jealous, even if they are an ally? And what is wrong with a bit of backstabbing for personal game? We are playing medieval nobles here after all. Personal gain is one of the most, if not the most motivation for war.

Definitely,

But it should feel like it. You need to feel the desire to expand, to backstab, to gain. Not like...maybe we could take that rural region there so it will look nice and round on the map...but do we have the nobles to support it? Ahh...I just don't know...but now we're hit by TMP so I guess... :p

[Sacha]

I don't consider the hordes to be evil, actually. Certainly not monsters, they are just mindless creatures driven by instinct. Undead are a bit higher on the evil ladder, but they are relatively weak compared to monsters. I recently proposed that advies leave undead alone and hunt just the monsters, since undead are much easier to kill and provide good training for soldiers who have no humans to kill.

[Phellan]

What's wrong with a simple war of conquest with no other motive than expansion? There have been dozens of wars fought in history over nothing more than expansion. If your neighbor has more lands than you, would you not feel slightly jealous, even if they are an ally? And what is wrong with a bit of backstabbing for personal game? We are playing medieval nobles here after all. Personal gain is one of the most, if not the most motivation for war.

Best reasons for war ever.

Problem is most realms tend to jump in on those ones, and rarely on the side that opted to expand :P   

1 on 1 or 2 on 2 is awesome.    5-6 on 1?  . . .well, why bother starting a war if you know it's gonna result in a beat down?

[JPierreD]

By the number of people pissed off, TMP's current code /has/ problems. I don't understand why some people are still saying it has not. It is like pissing in the other's complaints, and stating you don't give a crap about them. And a rather large number of people's complaints, btw.

Also, the Devs have already agreed there are problems, and they are looking into them. Further complaining is of no help.

How about we pass to the phase in which we try to suggest way to improve TMP's code, without making it ineffective for its original purpose (to stimulate wars)? My idea would be to remove the military-penalties from TMP, since that is what you really need for making wars, and it won't really make those affected by it any eager to have a real (and thus fun) confrontation.
So:
* Remove all Unit penalties (morale, training, etc.)
* Don't penalize recruiting troops or anything related to the capacity of a realm to wage a war.
* Keep the economic penalties.
* If the realm doesn't go to war, bring war to the realm. Cause peasant rebellions from TMP, this can come in different flavored types: a charismatic commoner prophet is starting an insulting heresy which must be destroyed, peasants no longer consider the local Lord a need to protect them from foreign threats so they decide to take over the region, commoner merchants decide instigating a rebellion to be more profitable than paying for protection taxes since they are no longer afraid, etc.
* Have people evade taxes, banditry increase and corruption flourish during peace time.
* Cause Loyalty and/or Control of provinces to lower due to more bold rebellious groups.
* Hurt those that profit more from the status quo brought by peace: the rich and powerful ones. Have the council members randomly lose h/p because of clerks' corruption scandals due to lowered discipline during peacetime. Have bandits dare to steal part of the fortunes of the rich due to same lowered discipline of the guards, maybe even steal banks. Actually I think this is the most important point, but it will need some thinking to translate it to in-game logic.

[Phellan]

I agree Pierre, and I know the Dev's are working on making things improved.

We should see wars also provide aid to those fighting wars:

• Reduce loyalty/morale/control loss for Realms at war
• Reduce tax negatives for Realms at war
• Provide more "gains" for actions like looting, scavenging the battle field - I think small amounts of gold to the war chest or sponsor is a great idea when those actions are done
• Provide unit perks/gains that are gained and maintained by constant battle / warfare against PC Realms, but lost during peace time

Make it easier for Realms who ARE at war to stay that way - fighting a long extended war can lead to lack of regional care.   Reduce the negatives experienced by regions (through a small bonus) that occurs during battles and wars.   They should be small, but have long lasting effects and be cumulative (length wise).   

And I really think we need to add some new perks to fighting other Realms.   Things to make players want to fight their enemies AND ways to reward them for doing so.

We've tried the beat people with a stick - lets get them some incentives and bonuses they get for actually DOING those things.   People love to do things for rewards - lets give them some rewards for doing what we want.

[Nosferatus]

By the number of people pissed off, TMP's current code /has/ problems. I don't understand why some people are still saying it has not. It is like pissing in the other's complaints, and stating you don't give a crap about them. And a rather large number of people's complaints, btw.

Also, the Devs have already agreed there are problems, and they are looking into them. Further complaining is of no help.

How about we pass to the phase in which we try to suggest way to improve TMP's code, without making it ineffective for its original purpose (to stimulate wars)? My idea would be to remove the military-penalties from TMP, since that is what you really need for making wars, and it won't really make those affected by it any eager to have a real (and thus fun) confrontation.
So:
* Remove all Unit penalties (morale, training, etc.)
* Don't penalize recruiting troops or anything related to the capacity of a realm to wage a war.
* Keep the economic penalties.
* If the realm doesn't go to war, bring war to the realm. Cause peasant rebellions from TMP, this can come in different flavored types: a charismatic commoner prophet is starting an insulting heresy which must be destroyed, peasants no longer consider the local Lord a need to protect them from foreign threats so they decide to take over the region, commoner merchants decide instigating a rebellion to be more profitable than paying for protection taxes since they are no longer afraid, etc.
* Have people evade taxes, banditry increase and corruption flourish during peace time.
* Cause Loyalty and/or Control of provinces to lower due to more bold rebellious groups.
* Hurt those that profit more from the status quo brought by peace: the rich and powerful ones. Have the council members randomly lose h/p because of clerks' corruption scandals due to lowered discipline during peacetime. Have bandits dare to steal part of the fortunes of the rich due to same lowered discipline of the guards, maybe even steal banks. Actually I think this is the most important point, but it will need some thinking to translate it to in-game logic.

I agree on most what you said but...
again...
First we need to ask if it really does or would increase fun wars and battles.
I think not.
if it does, we should defiantly keep it.

we are humans, we can't just fix everything, we act like the beeings we are.
Fun wars and battles and the number in which they exist are a result of the players playing this game.
If the players are boring and prefer peace (melhed won first price i geuss :P), they will most likley not fight any wars and just stay boring.
If a whole island is ruled by only a few realms who decided together to try and reach a Continental wide peace period record (EC), those leaders should get a warning and then get bolted.
Thats the only way we should intervene in my opinion to encourage wars.

The rest is all up to us players to make things IG alot more intresting.
There many many ways, trust me.
The 'bad' side of it all is that you will damage your character/family reputation or even lose a character or two, but if that makes the future of the game more fun, i'd do it.
A few plots and even Melhed won't be a peaceful place anymore *evil grin*.

[vonGenf]

Jens,

I am part of a realm that suffers TMP. I can tell you with 100% certainty that I was not bored before, and TMP bores me now. I forces me to play my character in an unrealistic way, contrary to all he believes in (and believe me, that doesn't mean he is a pacifist).

The problem is not that TMP is unfair, I agree that it is fair. The problem is that it breaks the game. It turns what was a RP and Strategy and Politics game into a slow version of War Islands. And I stopped playing WI after two games and a half for a reason.

[vonGenf]

Here's a proposal, I'm not sure if it is good: Auto-loot.

It makes sense that the soldiers don't like marching around for no reason. In the middle-ages, it was very common for soldiers to pillage all lands around them. Glory and Victory could keep them, but otherwise it was common that no region would want to house moving soldiers, ever.

TMP could mean that when when a realm has been at peace for too long, troops get a random probability to auto-loot whatever region you are in. If you are in your own lands, your regions get damaged. If you leave your lands.... explain that to your neighbors. Or disband your unit, if you accept the price of an undefended land.

This would force war, without actually destroying the ability to wage war.

[Kain]

Here's a proposal, I'm not sure if it is good: Auto-loot.

It makes sense that the soldiers don't like marching around for no reason. In the middle-ages, it was very common for soldiers to pillage all lands around them. Glory and Victory could keep them, but otherwise it was common that no region would want to house moving soldiers, ever.

TMP could mean that when when a realm has been at peace for too long, troops get a random probability to auto-loot whatever region you are in. If you are in your own lands, your regions get damaged. If you leave your lands.... explain that to your neighbors. Or disband your unit, if you accept the price of an undefended land.

This would force war, without actually destroying the ability to wage war.

Hey, that is not half-bad.

Let's see what the rest think.

[Shizzle]

Sounds cool :) though it's somewhat unrealistic that they pillage and loot on top of their salary? Couldn't an incentive be that unit upkeep is free when in a 'looting' status?

[Jens Namtrah]

Your diplomatic "hocus pocus" would have cost us a victory.   Wars are fun - being gang banged by 4 Realms, two of which are considerably larger than we are - not so much fun.   Ive already been in one Realm that loved to do as you suggested.  It got squished by 6 different Realms all at the same time.     

No - we've been sitting around because we needed time to get Fissoa into the fight and to keep Terran/D'Hara/Barca out.  NOW we are sitting around because of TMP.   Their army should have arrived this week with 10-15K CS, now that will not happen.

Perhaps you should message the Grand Council (14 players) which is roughly half our noble count - they run all our decision making processes, as Doge I have to run everything through them before I can do it effectively.

Leadership in Madina has rebuilt the Realm from 9 nobles to over 30 - if you think that's a failure of Leadership, I question exactly what you think should have been done differently.

Please - you went from 9 to 30 because Caerwyn flopped and came south. You decided to give away everything we are fighting for to the Caerwyn group, meaning none of the "old realm" has anything to fight for anymore except revenge on some rebels most of us weren't even around for to know about.

First I've ever heard of the "Grand Council". All I've ever heard of is the "Emergency Powers Act" or whatever you call it. My Lord has never once informed me of any discussions going on or asked my opinion.

All I can see is that one character is Ruler, General and Marshal; that only 2 Dukes are allowed to vote, and that one of them is the Judge; and that every once in a while the realm is informed of some decision that was made.

As for your "gang bang", I doubt the armies in the north could travel so far - but that's an in-game issue and you'll never know the rest of my opinion on it because you'll never ask.

As for "costing you a victory" - well, you obviously have missed the point of everything I've said on this thread.

Enjoy your TMP.  Even if the devs decided to turn it off completely, it wouldn't be in time to help you now. The rebels have plenty of rogue lands to fight in to keep TMP away, you don't, and pretty soon your armies are going to disappear and then they'll come across the straits and destroy you.

Your old-fashioned style of play has probably cost you the war.