BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => Development => Topic started by: Phellan on July 05, 2011, 07:01:05 PM
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So, I can understand the idea behind the new changes - makes it less harsh than the region control loss stuff.
However it's very damaging in two ways - the first is that training drops ALL the way down. And pretty quickly.
The second is that it makes any militia deployed effectively useless after TMP ends.
Name Men Equipment Training CS
Red Hand 15 65 / 55 12 138
Yes, 12 training (which was better than the 10 my unit had). And there is now effectively no way to increase the militia training.
Is there a way to make this NOT effect militia (since, TMP shouldn't affect them anyways - its not like THEY want war, they just defend their homes) or have it that once TMP is over, training slowly increases and returns to normal for all units?
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I think the training losses should be capped at what ever the training level of the unit is when it's recruited.
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Problem with that comes to mixed units, ones where they have added units with different training levels.
Unless an additional value is added that averages the total "base training" of the units recruited and kept in storage for TMP calcs. But that could take a bit of coding work.
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I think the training losses should be capped at what ever the training level of the unit is when it's recruited.
This is not currently possible. The game does not track that information.
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This is not currently possible. The game does not track that information.
Could something similar be added to the same database that tracks each individual unit though? Actually, that seems like it would be a lot of work.
Could the units CURRENT training, have a modified (diminishing returns style?) effect? Where Very High and High Training decreases more rapidly, but lower training (say under 50) slows down and takes a much greater and prolonged time? With the idea being that once under 50% training, there's not a lot to lose, and once you hit like 35-40% . . .well, even the most fresh recruits can do that, so they can't really drop too much lower (and if they did, it wouldn't be too noticiable).
Most units I see - even low end ones usually have 40-50 training (I think most realms destroy ones that are really low) - so it's not unreasonable to put some lower end cap on it. This also doesn't completely ruin Militia, and just effects the more well-trained higher end units that most nobles like to carry around.
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I don't see it as that much of an issue, either.
Perhaps training bonuses could be slightly tweaked to be slighter better than it currently is?
Another idea would be giving lords the option to train their militia.
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Could the units CURRENT training, have a modified (diminishing returns style?) effect? Where Very High and High Training decreases more rapidly, but lower training (say under 50) slows down and takes a much greater and prolonged time? With the idea being that once under 50% training, there's not a lot to lose, and once you hit like 35-40% . . .well, even the most fresh recruits can do that, so they can't really drop too much lower (and if they did, it wouldn't be too noticiable).
I don't know what the current mechanic is (I've never bothered to look), but this sounds like a reasonable proposal. Knock down the elite status pretty quick without constant attention, but it's hard to lose much when you don't know much to begin with. :P
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Honestly, I like TMP lowering the training of my men in D'Hara. Means they cost less for upkeep. Satisfies my current needs, and I'll just recruit more to compensate when a need for more arises.
Having lordly options to have training sessions for the militia would be interesting.
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Honestly, I like TMP lowering the training of my men in D'Hara. Means they cost less for upkeep. Satisfies my current needs, and I'll just recruit more to compensate when a need for more arises.
Having lordly options to have training sessions for the militia would be interesting.
What Indirik has supported would still allow you that, it would just keep training from getting into the single digits, which with a 40 man unit is pretty tough to bring back up. I like the mechanic, just not the extreme lows it allows for. Capping the drop off between 30-45 seems reasonable, since most lowly trained units start there.
And I agree, though given that they would eventually drop back down to low levels might make it a bit redundant.
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I didn't say I supported a minimum floor for training. Just a slowing as you get lower.
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I didn't say I supported a minimum floor for training. Just a slowing as you get lower.
Thought I hadn't seen that anywhere too. Regardless, I don't mind either suggestions.
I'm just saying I don't mind my militia costing less and less every day.
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Any changes on this in the future?
Dropped 20% on my training in 5 days and we're losing a fair bit of CS, and this is during a war! Just takes time to build up between city sieges . . . ugh. Nothing like hitting TMP on Dwilight.
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Yeah. Fissoa is facing TMP as well. A year ago we barely stood up against monsters, now I'm longing for them to come back. I'm considering to expel some advies to get some spawns, as diplomatics are stuck, IC-wise. The only option for Fissoa to attack would be Luria Nova, and that would be kind of lame, right after our IG understanding. And with TMP recuding stats in our regions (?) sending out an expeditionary army is becoming less of an option, too. Feels like a spiral of doom.
Sigh.
Thinking of it, how SMA is TMP? I don't think ME peasants paid less taxes in peace-time, and that they have knowledge of this Keynes-like system is just absurd.
I'm not wanting to fight the system, though. So any hints for a new-born ruler char?
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I support a floor cap. It's a very simple solution with no obvious drawbacks.
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I support a floor cap. It's a very simple solution with no obvious drawbacks.
The drawback is that the whole point of it is to make things so bad in the realm that you have to go to war. The purpose of it is to let the majority of the players in the game who don't get to play the "Council Channel" aspect have something to do, and to force the Councils to find a war for them somehow.
Advies culling all the spawn is an unforeseen consequence, so perhaps increasing monsters/undead as a an affect of TMP would help things out.
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The drawback is that the whole point of it is to make things so bad in the realm that you have to go to war. The purpose of it is to let the majority of the players in the game who don't get to play the "Council Channel" aspect have something to do, and to force the Councils to find a war for them somehow.
To be honest TMP is one of the worst additions to the game and one of those things that make it less fun. Beating people with a stick isn't going to make them get into interesting wars. What you get is stuff like Melhed jumping in to beat on an realm that's already beaten. You get stuff like Itaulond, a 2 region realm with a single RC and enough troubles as is, getting additionally hammered by the code. It's horribly demotivating to just about every player in a realm because it fails to create any fun and more often causes problems and hardship when they're not needed. Heck, it'll hit you even if you're at war, but are forced in to an stalemate situation for a bit of time(not that uncommon in an even war).
Want to fix TMP? Remove it all together because it's nothing but trouble and makes the game less playable.
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To be honest TMP is one of the worst additions to the game and one of those things that make it less fun. Beating people with a stick isn't going to make them get into interesting wars. What you get is stuff like Melhed jumping in to beat on an realm that's already beaten. You get stuff like Itaulond, a 2 region realm with a single RC and enough troubles as is, getting additionally hammered by the code. It's horribly demotivating to just about every player in a realm because it fails to create any fun and more often causes problems and hardship when they're not needed. Heck, it'll hit you even if you're at war, but are forced in to an stalemate situation for a bit of time(not that uncommon in an even war).
Want to fix TMP? Remove it all together because it's nothing but trouble and makes the game less playable.
Disagree. We're just in the next "learning phase".
First, we had things like the "Atamara Gridlock" and the "Zonasan Peacemongers"
Now, we have a period of "bitch and moan and whine" about being forced to change
Eventually, we'll settle into a period where realms and their Councils realize that steady, reliable warring is as essential to a realm as Region Maintenance, and they will act accordingly.
This is BM - change takes time :P
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So what's it going to be? "Hey guys, want to have a small scale war? We promise not to steal any of your regions"
Fissoa has no RP basis for a war right now, but we really need one.
How about raiding surrounding rogue lands?:)
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To be honest TMP is one of the worst additions to the game and one of those things that make it less fun. Beating people with a stick isn't going to make them get into interesting wars. What you get is stuff like Melhed jumping in to beat on an realm that's already beaten. You get stuff like Itaulond, a 2 region realm with a single RC and enough troubles as is, getting additionally hammered by the code. It's horribly demotivating to just about every player in a realm because it fails to create any fun and more often causes problems and hardship when they're not needed. Heck, it'll hit you even if you're at war, but are forced in to an stalemate situation for a bit of time(not that uncommon in an even war).
Want to fix TMP? Remove it all together because it's nothing but trouble and makes the game less playable.
I agree with LilWolf on this one. It has too many bad unintented consequences (like some of the ones LilWolf pointed out). Just remove it and perhaps find some other way to motivate councils to find wars to fight.
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Personally, I'm not all that sure we need to give people too many artificial reasons to fight. True, there need to be some, to prevent things like the "Great Peace" on EC that followed the end of the "Great War". But I think that rather than penalize peace, maybe we need to find some way to provide incentives for war. The TMP penalties don't really seem to be doing it. The estate revamp will help, hopefully, by allowing realms to claim more land.
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Yeah, but the side effect is that TMP ALWAYS screws over the Realms ability to actually *wage* war.
Which of course is absurd, because it spirals - you aren't fighting, so they want you to fight, but it damages your ability to fight, so then you can't fight, but they still want you to fight. . .
As always the problem with TMP is like the issues with Estates - it's negative consequences for not doing desired behaviour. Instead of providing bonuses and incentives for the players and Realms to DO it.
If you want people to do something, reward them for it. Don't punish them - especially when the punishments make it damned near impossible to do the desired behaviour ANYWAYS.
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As always the problem with TMP is like the issues with Estates - it's negative consequences for not doing desired behaviour. Instead of providing bonuses and incentives for the players and Realms to DO it.
That's kinds what I just said...
So, what do you suggest?
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Give a productivity/tax tolerance/miscellaneous bonus according to realm glory? If you fight you get bonus, if you do not, your whole realm does not fall apart.
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Give a productivity/tax tolerance/miscellaneous bonus according to realm glory? If you fight you get bonus, if you do not, your whole realm does not fall apart.
This. Seeing a "The people feel safe under the protection of you and your knights. Morale rises x%. Loyalty rises y%." in the daily region report if you have nice battles would probably do more to encourage fights than the current system.
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That's kinds what I just said...
So, what do you suggest?
Well, I think it would be interesting to tie it into estates a bit personally, but since the new changes haven't been released all I can say is that being at war should lessen any negatives a region experiences - maybe even provide improvements such as reduced production loss, region loyalty loss, morale loss etc. Each battle should improve stats (or lessen the effects that push stats downwards) - war makes the people more loyal, they are afraid of the "other" and are more willing to suffer high taxes, work harder, and have fewer freedoms if it protects them from the scary other.
Having war bolster regions would help reduce the need to look after regions while fighting wars - we had that problem in Zonasa in the last war, where regions were becoming unmanageable because our nobles were off fighting, never mind the enemy never set foot in our realm.
These effects should be tied to battles - the more battles you fight, the stronger and longer lasting the effect. Even if it's just rogues you should get some of these effects as the people "know" the army is out there fighting something that's going to hurt them if they aren't careful.
I'd like to see more "gain" for players from war, maybe higher honour and prestige gains from fighting PC armies when compared to NPC armies. I'd love to see something like "loot" being distributed to an army (or army chest) or nobles when a region is successfully TO'd, but I would worry about game balance - though gold being put into an army chest may not be so unbalancing. Even from fighting battles - gold looted from enemy corpses, from the armour / weapons of the fallen, from the peasantry - what have you - that gold gets put into the army chest for repairs/training later on.
I mean, it's awesome to get lots of honour and prestige - but rarely can anyone use it. I can field a 210 man unit. . . but i'd never get that much money on my own to get that many men, much less pay them on a weekly basis unless I was a Duke.
Maybe unique paraphenalia can be acquired via fighting a war (or against PC armies) or with higher levels of honour/prestige - trophy banners, Realm Standards, Priests of your Faith (or banners of your faith), etc. Things that could show up in battle or give your unit a more unique flavour. Rewards for fighting in battles against PC enemies - even battle honours for Armies, something that makes the players want to fight each other for the rewards. Maybe a certain number of PC vs PC army battles grants an army lower training costs or improved training due to the veteran survivors passing on their knowledge. Maybe an army that scavenges a lot can have not only their own equip dmg reduced, but places some extra "weapon/armour" (metal) in the army chest, reducing the repair costs for members in that army (simulated by your unit scavanges the battle field . . . . in addition 5 gp worth of metal is sent to the army supplies - which grants 5gp to the war chest).
I almost want to see in a battle report "Unit X has captured a battle standard of Saguist Astroism in battle!" Gold reward? Maybe, bonus to morale? Probably. Put a giant nasty target on the characters head because they now have the honoured standard of someone else? Oh, definately :D
Battles could even lower the cost of the "pay your men" option - looting was very common in those days, whose to say your men didn't stuff their purses with the gold from the dead (or loot some people on their way back to camp?).
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Give a productivity/tax tolerance/miscellaneous bonus according to realm glory? If you fight you get bonus, if you do not, your whole realm does not fall apart.
So the people winning the war (since they have a high glory they are most most likely winning) get bonuses that help them win even easier? And realms that are losing, and thus probably have a lower glory, don't get these same bonuses, and therefore lose all the faster?
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So the people winning the war (since they have a high glory they are most most likely winning) get bonuses that help them win even easier? And realms that are losing, and thus probably have a lower glory, don't get these same bonuses, and therefore lose all the faster?
Balance to this is to base it off the number of battles fought - rather than victory giving bonuses (since, this inherently makes the winner stronger). Though you could also modify it with smaller realms receiving a bonus with fewer battles when compared to a larger realm - as a bigger realm needs to fight more battles to impress it's people. Or have glory effect small realms more strongly (or make it easier for small realms to gain glory when compared to a large realm).
Limit the effect to number of battles compared to the size of the Realm (or their total CS). A big 10K fight for a single or two duchy Realm can be their entire army - that should be a big bonus with a long decay period (A big rise followed by a medium decay that slows to a small decay). Whereas a 10K fight for someone who has 40K CS, well, they should need 4 fights to get the same bonus (however, over those 4 fights they still get a bonus that's smaller, but probably more sustained as they have them spread over time). Winning and losing shouldn't matter at the end of the day when we want to encourage war, but the fighting is what we want so seeing the fighting grant the bonuses is important bit.
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I'm not wanting to fight the system, though. So any hints for a new-born ruler char?
You already have a friend in Koli...Perhaps Koli should invite Fissoa to join in the Crusade to cleanse the Divide Mountains and Desert? We could use the troops.
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What about a stat bonus divided by population? So, you fight in a battle, and you've got 10K CS worth of troops in it, so you get 10K points. You've got 50 people in the realm, so you get 200 points worth of stat bonus that helps your regions. If you have 20 people, you get 500 instead, nicer bonus to reflect the fact that lower noble counts make it harder to fight.
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What about a stat bonus divided by population? So, you fight in a battle, and you've got 10K CS worth of troops in it, so you get 10K points. You've got 50 people in the realm, so you get 200 points worth of stat bonus that helps your regions. If you have 20 people, you get 500 instead, nicer bonus to reflect the fact that lower noble counts make it harder to fight.
This actually might encourage smaller realms and more friction. I like it. ... Although anything is better than how TMP currently works.
I've been wondering if it would be against the rules to conduct a mock war solely for the purpose of avoiding TMP. Probably is. ::)
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I've been wondering if it would be against the rules to conduct a mock war solely for the purpose of avoiding TMP. Probably is. ::)
Depends. Are you arranging it OOC, player to player? Or are you arranging it IC "We must keep the peasants in check! We have always been at war with Oceania!" with the possibility that something will go wrong IC and the war will spiral?
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Depends. Are you arranging it OOC, player to player? Or are you arranging it IC "We must keep the peasants in check! We have always been at war with Oceania!" with the possibility that something will go wrong IC and the war will spiral?
I've actually been thinking about arranging something like that IC, though my plan is to propose it to the other ruler more as a sort of grand tournament. But first I need a way to make sure that if it spirals out of control, my realm won't get screwed.
But yeah, right now TMP is not working very well, mainly for the reasons Phellan stated, also because it happens too fast -- during Zonasa's war with Arcaea, we got hit by the penalties at least once while we were refitting, and several times just barely avoided the time cutoff for penalties -- if it hits realms that are actively fighting wars, something is wrong.
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Or are you arranging it IC "We must keep the peasants in check! We have always been at war with Oceania!" with the possibility that something will go wrong IC and the war will spiral?
This.
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This. Seeing a "The people feel safe under the protection of you and your knights. Morale rises x%. Loyalty rises y%." in the daily region report if you have nice battles would probably do more to encourage fights than the current system.
Really? You are going to go to war so you can have a boost in region stats? I don't believe it for a minute.
I stand by my earlier post - the reason it isn't working is because you haven't changed your way of ruling the realm yet. Break up those 8 year old friendships, take offense more easily, let your knights have a freer hand at looting neutral realms.
When I used to play before, whenever I would complain about the gridlocked peace everywhere, people would always say, "then go start a war". Which we all knew was bull!@#$, because if you did your Ruler would just cry, "Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry - bad knight!" and ban you.
You brought TMP on yourselves. Suck it up and play through it.
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Fissoa is screwed too. I don't think we can pick a fight with LN yet, and Madina is just ..out of the question. We could use an SA invasion to unite against :P
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Really? You are going to go to war so you can have a boost in region stats? I don't believe it for a minute.
It was just a quick example of what the positive things to encourage war could be. Of course, that alone wouldn't be enough. Read what some others have suggested in that area.
I stand by my earlier post - the reason it isn't working is because you haven't changed your way of ruling the realm yet. Break up those 8 year old friendships, take offense more easily, let your knights have a freer hand at looting neutral realms.
When I used to play before, whenever I would complain about the gridlocked peace everywhere, people would always say, "then go start a war". Which we all knew was bull!@#$, because if you did your Ruler would just cry, "Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry - bad knight!" and ban you.
You brought TMP on yourselves. Suck it up and play through it.
You think it's ok that a realm that has nearly no capacity to actually fight a war, gets threatening notes from the game that basically boil down to "What a crappy realm you have there. Go kill yourself off in some random battle or I'll put a world of hurt on you that will ensure you'll die anyway." Gee, way to make the game fun.
The TMP code has been in the game for what, over 2 years? It has changed nothing in that time so I highly doubt it ever will. All it has done is make players hate it and cause problems where none are needed. It's a failed experiment that needs to be put down as much as some of the other failed experiments.
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I stick to the point that TMP is awesome, and reminds everyone when they are part of a lame realm that is too scared to fight battles. No monsters? Go pick a fight with humans. The game is still called Battlemaster and as for as I'm concerned the goal of TMP is to "encourage" (read: force) people into picking a fight.
Perhaps getting rid of the gigantic realms, but instead creating one-city realms, might be easier? It sure as hell would give more realms, and thus more "wars".
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I personally like many of the suggestions made. War is not easy. It is downright costly. Your ability to control your regions deteriorate as your lords are off fighting. Your unit expense rises doe to repairs and replacement. A system that helps mitigate some of these effects would encourage battles.
In addition to a realm bonus I would make some of the bonus to regions specific to regions. So, if Region X has a Lord and two knights, then the region will gain productivity/loyalty/authority bonuses based on how many battles it's nobles participate in. I would also suggest that the bonus granted by Lords be a higher than the bonus provided by knights. This would allow the lord/knights of a region to maintain his region either by fighting like mad or by sitting in the region and holding court or otherwise actively managing it.
I also like the idea of finding ways to reduce the costs of war. If your men are constantly and actively collecting valuables from the battlefield they would cost less to maintain while in the field. They still die though and trips back to the capital would be a good check and balance. Reducing repair costs and payments to units would certainly make any noble with a unit want to keep the battles going. I think balancing things so that you could afford a larger unit during times of way than during times of peace would be good.
I would probably keep too much peace around. As others have noted it serves as a good reminder. I think it should be less damaging though and primarily make units more expensive to maintain at large numbers. The occasional desertion might be good way of achieving this. "Your men grow weary from the lack of battle. One has deserted in search of glory elsewhere." Now you have to replace that man and train up. I would not want to extend this desertion to militia, as they are home bodies anyway, and I would keep the desertions low enough that the realm can overcome it with only some additional expense.
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I stick to the point that TMP is awesome, and reminds everyone when they are part of a lame realm that is too scared to fight battles. No monsters? Go pick a fight with humans. The game is still called Battlemaster and as for as I'm concerned the goal of TMP is to "encourage" (read: force) people into picking a fight.
Perhaps getting rid of the gigantic realms, but instead creating one-city realms, might be easier? It sure as hell would give more realms, and thus more "wars".
get rid of realm and everyone is in a 1 city duchy?
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Barca on Dwilight is a one city realm and not a terribly large one either. We are still being hit by too much peace. Not sure if reducing realm size will really combat too much peace much as it is currently implemented.
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Well, you still have to go into a war to get combat... It was just an idea; if there would be more (if not all) realms with only 1 city, the political landscape would be more fractured and allow for more wars. It would be better if Ducal Independence would exist and duchies could fight one another within the realm; but for now that appears to be too much coding (and it is more complex than this one-liner).
To summarize; TMP tells you your realms exists of cowards. Get it together and go into a war, and preferably don't wait for TMP to tell you that. Or don't get into a war and live with the consequences, whatever. There were no standing armies in the middle ages so TMP kinda makes sense.
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I can see this to some extent. However, it almost seems likely to put a small realm in the position of go get yourself toasted in battle or let yourself be weakened until someone comes and stomp on you. Great for senseless combat but doesn't make much sense otherwise. Especially on an SMA island.
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Especially on an SMA island.
Only if SMA means, to you, that you don't talk to anyone and don't say anything rude and you take rude things that others say to you, then you won't get in any wars.
If, instead, you gallivant around, insulting people's appearances and taking offense at their comments, then you can easily find an excuse for a war.
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If, instead, you gallivant around, insulting people's appearances and taking offense at their comments, then you can easily find an excuse for a war.
I.e. if your character is an !@#$%^&.
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Like I said, I am not completely against TMP. I would simply prefer to see it modified. I think desertions would be ideal.
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I.e. if your character is an !@#$%^&.
It works for the Himoura's? :D
But the point remains - we can change coding to make it *easier* to fight wars.
Regions can get hard hit while the armies are away, reducing these effects through "bonuses" allows for more continued fighting and less required maintenance, placing the focus back on the "battle" part of battlemaster.
Have looting, scavenging, and even TO's provide gold to the army chest allowing for cheaper repairs and refits.
More honour and prestige gains from fighting player armies - with the chance of gaining something unique or special during combat (especially since now we know which units attacks which).
Combined with the new changes coming for estates hopefully we will see a return to where it was easier to TO regions, regions could rebuild more quickly, and an increased ability to wage war through the "bonuses" (ie: reduced penalties) to leaving regions unattended for long periods.
As we always argue - there are lots of minor nobles around, we're just the top few. Your region shouldn't go to hell in a hand basket just because the local Lord isn't there, heck - if he's from some backwater region he probably rarely goes there. That's why he has stewards and minor nobles, they can do the normal work for him. He's out at the Capital trying to impress people about his importance.
Fighting wars should be encouraged by making it easier to continue fighting them - as pointed out with the Zonasa war, even though they were fighting a war, the long refit times actually was causing TMP to hurt their regions and make it tough for them to fight! This is the problem with the way TMP works.
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I.e. if your character is an !@#$%^&.
I.e. if he behaves like a medieval noble that keeps peasants and slaves and runs around hanging peasants because they looked suspicious. Why do we expect our characters to treat each other with so much more respect than they treat those beneath them? The content of one's character is revealed by what one does those who can't do anything about it.
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I.e. if he behaves like a medieval noble that keeps peasants and slaves and runs around hanging peasants because they looked suspicious. Why do we expect our characters to treat each other with so much more respect than they treat those beneath them? The content of one's character is revealed by what one does those who can't do anything about it.
Because, anyone who outranks you can do exactly that to you. Lip off the king - lose your head. No questions asked. The only issue is apparently Tom opted to make it so we can't kill each other off quite so efficiently.
Also, the fact is peasants and rabble. . .are just that. Rabble. Nobles aren't even related to them - they are a different kind of people, a better breed. Born to rule, lead, conquer, and divine the correct way of living for those who were put on this planet for them to order around. Other nobles are NOT peasants nor rabble.
Treat a noble like a commoner, and you effectively say you are a commoner - that's a big no no. Nobles ARE better than peasants - you must maintain that belief, if you don't then the entire class structure breaks down. Part of that structure means treating Nobles as your equals and not like peasant scum. Threatening that structure is a huge faux pas, it means you might give some credence to the peasants and middle class who think they can do without Noble rulership.
Such questions and actions are exactly what led to the downfall of most monarchies and religious rulerships - as nobles we can't have people questioning how good we are, or how special. It simple IS. If it's not, then . . .well. the peasants might decide to rule themselves.
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The TMP code has been in the game for what, over 2 years? It has changed nothing in that time so I highly doubt it ever will. All it has done is make players hate it and cause problems where none are needed. It's a failed experiment that needs to be put down as much as some of the other failed experiments.
Closer to 4 or 5, although this seems to be a new version of it. And you are leaving out the years of discussing all of these ideas you are having now about how to break up the deadlock and get wars going again.
Call it a roughly 8 year problem, that seems finally to be taken seriously.
I look around now, I see wars in most places. I see a few realms who aren't having wars, and are being hurt. I think it's working out just fine.
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I tend to agree. Are there cases where TMP is causing problems where it probably shouldn't? Sure. Is there more fighting on every continent because of it? Hell yes.
Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater, here. Moving from penalties to bonuses sounds like a fine thing, but TMP is important as a concept.
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I tend to agree. Are there cases where TMP is causing problems where it probably shouldn't? Sure. Is there more fighting on every continent because of it? Hell yes.
Can you provide good and strong evidence to back that claim up? Because that has not been my experience. I know that Zonasa's ruling council has never really considered TMP (though we haven't been hit by it much -- some but not a lot), and the only way TMP is factoring into my calculations of going to war as ruler of Libero Empire is 'has TMP made us too weak to be able to go to war, and will we ever be able to go to war again because of it?' -- I'm looking for a war as a way to provide something interesting to the PLAYERS, because most of them are losing interest, and the only thing TMP is doing for us is destroying our military before we can even get in position to go to war.
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Atamara. Whole island got involved in the war instead of sitting it out, and I know that at least some of that was due to TMP. FEI had some of the same in the last war, with a few realms getting involved because of TMP concerns more than diplomatic ones...And turned it into a fun war.
Probably going to end up influencing events in south-eastern Dwilight significantly as well.
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Can you provide good and strong evidence to back that claim up? Because that has not been my experience. I know that Zonasa's ruling council has never really considered TMP (though we haven't been hit by it much -- some but not a lot), and the only way TMP is factoring into my calculations of going to war as ruler of Libero Empire is 'has TMP made us too weak to be able to go to war, and will we ever be able to go to war again because of it?' -- I'm looking for a war as a way to provide something interesting to the PLAYERS, because most of them are losing interest, and the only thing TMP is doing for us is destroying our military before we can even get in position to go to war.
You should have seen it coming - it wasn't a surprise that was suddenly activated. You are sitting in the quietest, safest corner of the island - you've had plenty of time to build up your armies.
Loan out a small group of men as mercenaries. Ban "commoners" from leaving the estates so monsters build back up.
Use your imagination a little.
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You should have seen it coming - it wasn't a surprise that was suddenly activated. You are sitting in the quietest, safest corner of the island - you've had plenty of time to build up your armies.
Loan out a small group of men as mercenaries. Ban "commoners" from leaving the estates so monsters build back up.
Use your imagination a little.
Have a rebellion and pit your weakened forces against the rebels weakened forces :)
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Have a rebellion and pit your weakened forces against the rebels weakened forces :)
Why think so small?
Have a SUCESSION first, then a DOUBLE REBELLION, followed by a WAR of UNIFICATION!
and that's just off the top of my head... :P
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Or are you arranging it IC "We must keep the peasants in check! We have always been at war with Oceania!" with the possibility that something will go wrong IC and the war will spiral?
Also, if I pull this off, can I claim Magnificent Bastard status?
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Also, if I pull this off, can I claim Magnificent Bastard status?
Only if you win the ensuing war.
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Only if you win the ensuing war.
Welp, I'm boned.
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Atamara. Whole island got involved in the war instead of sitting it out, and I know that at least some of that was due to TMP. FEI had some of the same in the last war, with a few realms getting involved because of TMP concerns more than diplomatic ones...And turned it into a fun war.
Probably going to end up influencing events in south-eastern Dwilight significantly as well.
Meh..Atamara is following the same cycle of peace-war it has always followed. Atamara always goes from "Everyone is at war" to "Everyone is at peace" and then after a few months of peace it's back to "Everyone is at war". This has happened pretty much without exception ever since I started playing the game. It hasn't needed TMP threats for that to happen.
Really, if people see a chance to go to a war that offers them some fun without being in the ball park of "This will kill our realm", they'll go for it be there TMP or not. The problem with TMP is that it pushes for war with hefty penalties when war means death to your realm and that's just plain bad for the game and boils down to the game giving the middle finger to the players in such realms.
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Meh..Atamara is following the same cycle of peace-war it has always followed. Atamara always goes from "Everyone is at war" to "Everyone is at peace" and then after a few months of peace it's back to "Everyone is at war". This has happened pretty much without exception ever since I started playing the game. It hasn't needed TMP threats for that to happen.
Really, if people see a chance to go to a war that offers them some fun without being in the ball park of "This will kill our realm", they'll go for it be there TMP or not. The problem with TMP is that it pushes for war with hefty penalties when war means death to your realm and that's just plain bad for the game and boils down to the game giving the middle finger to the players in such realms.
It's been around by your estimate for 2 years and by mine 4-5.
Why all the doomsaying now? Name the realms it's devastated.
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Meh..Atamara is following the same cycle of peace-war it has always followed. Atamara always goes from "Everyone is at war" to "Everyone is at peace" and then after a few months of peace it's back to "Everyone is at war". This has happened pretty much without exception ever since I started playing the game. It hasn't needed TMP threats for that to happen.
Really, if people see a chance to go to a war that offers them some fun without being in the ball park of "This will kill our realm", they'll go for it be there TMP or not. The problem with TMP is that it pushes for war with hefty penalties when war means death to your realm and that's just plain bad for the game and boils down to the game giving the middle finger to the players in such realms.
If your realm can't survive a few battles, should it exist in a game called battlemaster?
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If your realm can't survive a few battles, should it exist in a game called battlemaster?
So, I take it we should get rid of everything in the game that doesn't directly involve fighting battles?
There's a lot more to BattleMaster than just fighting.
. . . a lot of it is scheming to keep the peace until you're in a position where you, and not the other guy, will win the fighting.
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. . . a lot of it is scheming to keep the peace until you're in a position where you, and not the other guy, will win the fighting.
I knew I was forgetting something.
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The drawback is that the whole point of it is to make things so bad in the realm that you have to go to war. The purpose of it is to let the majority of the players in the game who don't get to play the "Council Channel" aspect have something to do, and to force the Councils to find a war for them somehow.
Advies culling all the spawn is an unforeseen consequence, so perhaps increasing monsters/undead as a an affect of TMP would help things out.
When I suggested this alternative TMP system, I did not have this in mind, nor such drastically fast changes. I had in mind a system which's penalty speeds were slow enough so that if you spent all of your time training, your unit's training score would still overall increase. And it wasn't to make that realm's leaders so desperate that they'd jump on any random gangbang just to stave off the penalties, but rather to make them a weaker and weaker realm over the course of months, so that *other realms* get a greater incentive to attack them.
It was all about giving an edge to militaristic realms over pacifist ones, not about paralyzing pacifist realms. I've always firmly believe that even if we might want to encourage certain behaviours, this is still a game where people collectively decide what to do and how to do it, and that there is therefore no point in preventing people from doing what it is they have chosen to do, other than frustrating them and causing them to act in ways that make no RP sense and cause lame and hollow conflicts.
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this is still a game where people collectively decide what to do and how to do it, and that there is therefore no point in preventing people from doing what it is they have chosen to do, other than frustrating them and causing them to act in ways that make no RP sense and cause lame and hollow conflicts.
You look at everything from your own perspective - look at it from the perspective of a large group of players who came here to play BATTLEmaster and are instead ordered to do maintenance and training for a silent Council who refuses to go to war or let them in on decision-making.
If Rulers and Dukes are complaining (in this forum), and Common Nobles are lauding it, then it seems pretty good
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Not all Rulers and Dukes ;)
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I'm not entirely sure, but I don't think Fissoa will break RP to avoid TMP. It has nothing to do with not wanting to fight. Unless a Fissoan speaks up, of course :)
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I'm not entirely sure, but I don't think Fissoa will break RP to avoid TMP. It has nothing to do with not wanting to fight. Unless a Fissoan speaks up, of course :)
Fissoa has an incredibly easy way to avoid TMP, which would be entirely consistent with IC. I'm sure you can figure it out
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If Rulers and Dukes are complaining (in this forum), and Common Nobles are lauding it, then it seems pretty good
I think I've only seen one or two people claim that it's anything other than a necessary evil. And one of them runs two ruler characters.
Personally, I'm in the "necessary evil, but I wish we could do it another way" category.
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I think I've only seen one or two people claim that it's anything other than a necessary evil. And one of them runs two ruler characters.
Personally, I'm in the "necessary evil, but I wish we could do it another way" category.
We ALL think it's a necessary evil. The point is, it's necessary.
There IS another way - change the mentality of the ruling class in the game.
TMP is not going away, and I don't think they'll modify it much. If those of you deriding it would stop with the constant "We can't POSSIBLY go to war because of Excuses A, B, C, D and E" and instead look at some things you might do so you CAN go to war, the pro-TMP camp might think you were dealing with the problem in good faith and be more willing to listen.
Instead, all we hear is a lot of whining about how tough things are for the poor little Duke who can't keep enough food in his city so that his production stays high so he can get stinking rich.
If you want it to go away, I think you'll need to negotiate it away. Which means you'll need to put something on the table, not just ask for a weaker punishment instead.
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We ALL think it's a necessary evil. The point is, it's necessary.
There IS another way - change the mentality of the ruling class in the game.
Yeah...that seems easier.
Kings advisor: My King, the peasants are standing behind the new peasant leader Niels Dacke. They think our taxes are outrageous and are willing to die to get justice. We have an uprising on our hands.
King: Well, that is no problem. All we have to do is make them change their minds and like our high taxes. Perhaps fashionable t-shirts with "I pay my share" printed on them.
I think people whine about it because there is reason to. The code as it stands is like using a sledgehammer when a swiss army knife would do a far better job.
Personally I think we don't need the TMP code. We'll start wars anyway because we want to. Those few who don't (who can be reasonably expected to wage war in their current condition) can get warned and bolted, just like before.
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Yeah...that seems easier.
Kings advisor: My King, the peasants are standing behind the new peasant leader Niels Dacke. They think our taxes are outrageous and are willing to die to get justice. We have an uprising on our hands.
King: Well, that is no problem. All we have to do is make them change their minds and like our high taxes. Perhaps fashionable t-shirts with "I pay my share" printed on them.
Ruling class are the players. The ones who say all the time "you can't win BM", but haven't figured out that you can't lose it, either.
The ones who sit and work through every worst case, fringe scenario to convince themselves that "war would just be too risky", so they sit and do nothing but chatter in the council and ruler channels, at the detriment of all their "friends" in the realm.
(And then quite a few of them complain about a certain OCC group who is of doubtful intentions because they "play together and don't include anyone else". )
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Alright, here's an idea based on Kain's post:
Instead of Glory applied to TMP and affecting Ruler regions, etc. like now, it is applied to the Ruler.
If it hits a certain TMP level, Ruler and Council gets lightning bolted. Out of office, can't be re-elected/re-appointed for X time period.
Removes punishments against realm, regions, ability to raise army, etc. Puts it directly on people responsible for not getting involved in wars. OOC punishment - nothing to do with RP. You are given a gaming framework by Tom and devs in which you are expected to maintain a level of fighting and warfare, in the same way you are expected to keep a medieval atmosphere.
Punish the offenders, spare the innocent.
Yet somehow I think you won't like it :P
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Ruling class are the players. The ones who say all the time "you can't win BM", but haven't figured out that you can't lose it, either.
The ones who sit and work through every worst case, fringe scenario to convince themselves that "war would just be too risky", so they sit and do nothing but chatter in the council and ruler channels, at the detriment of all their "friends" in the realm.
(And then quite a few of them complain about a certain OCC group who is of doubtful intentions because they "play together and don't include anyone else". )
Yes, you mean they fear losing power and that is why they do not risk it. The risk of losing it by enemies jumping up and down on your realm is greater than the risk of rebellion or a duke in the realm-creating-mood. You can't be blamed if you don't do anything right?
But is that not just a natural impulse? A man always fears losing what has got. So in a world of no TMP, what does he fear? If he does not engage in war, his primary fear won't be other realms, it will be the dissatisfaction of his own nobles. Primarily the ones who do not hold one of the other three council positions or any dukeships because the forementioned parties feel like they've lots to lose too. The ones who hold normal lordships and those without even that, those are the ones with the least to lose.
So TMP could for example be replaced by more opportunities for the council and dukes to lose their powers.
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You know, I put my last idea up in only semi-seriousness, but the more I consider, the more I like it.
Imagine the huge boost to the Religion Game:
Lightning bolts from the Gods strong enough to strike down Kings - obviously, the War God is pretty powerful.
Religion builds up around it. Every battle includes some sort of "omen message" that tells you how much glory you got, so character quickly associate fighting with pleasing the Gods. Or, priests would have the ability to read the omens and explain, making them more central.
Kings who start to get the first TMP warnings to realm are obviously displeasing the Gods - hell, they might even get rebelled against before the realm is punished.
Honor and Prestige would mean something more concrete, and could help lead to your election.
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Nah, it would be a lot easier to simply start giving characters honor/prestige penalties. Small ones at first, and make them get larger. Make the penalties hit council members and dukes harder. Exempt those who have been in-realm less than 6 months.
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Nah, it would be a lot easier to simply start giving characters honor/prestige penalties. Small ones at first, and make them get larger. Make the penalties hit council members and dukes harder. Exempt those who have been in-realm less than 6 months.
why? That doesn't do much of anything, except punish players by not letting them try out different classes. Lack of warfare/lumping armies already does that enough.
If it is "ease" you want, I can assure you the code behind my idea is quite simple. Simpler than the existing code, actually.
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Carrot >> Stick.
Motivate people to play the way we want.
Beating them over the head makes them leave or turns them off.
I love a good war, but it's so hard to convince anyone to do it without it turning into a giant five on one.
Just bloody happy the Aurvandil vs Madina conflict has been left alone.
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I say that TMP should either be limited to reducing production and causing soldiers to lose morale and eventually desert, or gotten rid of entirely and replaced by a system that provides positive motivation to create wars. Don't penalize for peace, but reward for going to war. After all, this is battlemaster, as so many of you in favor of TMP are so fond of saying. Reward people for going to war. Not the other way around.
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I say that TMP should either be limited to reducing production and causing soldiers to lose morale and eventually desert, or gotten rid of entirely and replaced by a system that provides positive motivation to create wars. Don't penalize for peace, but reward for going to war. After all, this is battlemaster, as so many of you in favor of TMP are so fond of saying. Reward people for going to war. Not the other way around.
Oh, I quite agree. Rewards are far better than punishments. But having some system that means realms that are fighting are in better shape than realms that are not is necessary, I think.
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"A carrot is better than a stick" is a nice expression, and it is true much of the time, but it is not some sort of Absolute, Inviolable Truth.
Sometimes you need a Stick.
You have a small group of players who already have everything they want. They run the councils, they rule the realms, they are long-time friends with one another and so have no fear of outside intervention. They are completely content with things the way they are.
What kind of Carrot do you have in mind that's big enough to change that?
What kind of carrot can you offer the rest of the players that's big enough that they'll throw out that group if they don't get their war?
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On Dwilight and the Far East Island (the only ones where I've played a Ruler), I can assure you that this...
You have a small group of players who already have everything they want. They run the councils, they rule the realms, they are long-time friends with one another and so have no fear of outside intervention. They are completely content with things the way they are.
Is just not true on those islands. Atamara is involved in a major war to change the power structure on the island. As I understand it, Beluaterra is in the same position. North EC is in the final stages of a (ultimately, probably unsuccessful) war to challenge Sirion's power that came very close (who thought Old Rancangua would be destroyed?) to succeeding. South EC, Ibladesh made a bold move for greater island dominance which came within a hairsbreadth of succeeding and now Caligus and Perdan are fighting the good fight.
Admittedly, I don't know anything about the Colonies, but I think that claiming that the game is run by people who are all friends, either IC or OOC, is so far from the truth as to be in another dimension.
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On Dwilight and the Far East Island (the only ones where I've played a Ruler), I can assure you that this...
Is just not true on those islands. Atamara is involved in a major war to change the power structure on the island. As I understand it, Beluaterra is in the same position. North EC is in the final stages of a (ultimately, probably unsuccessful) war to challenge Sirion's power that came very close (who thought Old Rancangua would be destroyed?) to succeeding. South EC, Ibladesh made a bold move for greater island dominance which came within a hairsbreadth of succeeding and now Caligus and Perdan are fighting the good fight.
Admittedly, I don't know anything about the Colonies, but I think that claiming that the game is run by people who are all friends, either IC or OOC, is so far from the truth as to be in another dimension.
Well, I was General in Caligus until recently - I can tell you your assessment of that island is wrong.
Atamara is in a wonderful war - but only after we finally decided to gangbang Coria. Before that, all the old friends had the place so tied up with "thou shalt not cross" treaties that it was completely gridlocked and people were moaning. Even now, I'm sure you won't see any changes of the old guard. When I see Ottar on the run, I'll believe.
Dwilight is dead - one war happening, but it's two walled cities facing each other, with no one thinking to enlist allies or go around.
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I know the game is more than OOC cliques, but it is too many long-term friendships, and too many Councils who get so wrapped up in roleplaying their (completely private) diplomacy that gridlock it. They need a bigger push than any of the suggestions I've seen will give it.
Most people just want to be able to log on casually and find that there is a nice little war on, or a group of monsters close by, that they can reach in a couple of turns and fight for a little bit. I'm not out to punish people - find a way to create that situation, I'm happy to go along.
As you and I both said before - at the moment, things are generally not too bad. At the moment, we also have TMP. Can't prove one lead to the other, but can't prove it didn't.
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You have a small group of players who already have everything they want. They run the councils, they rule the realms, they are long-time friends with one another and so have no fear of outside intervention. They are completely content with things the way they are.
As you and I both said before - at the moment, things are generally not too bad. At the moment, we also have TMP. Can't prove one lead to the other, but can't prove it didn't.
Spot the contradiction?
If realms do not want to go to war, they shouldn't have to. Their passive stature will cause nearby realms to attack them eventually. And if the Ruling Class evades wars, but the majority of the realm wants to go to war, there's plenty of ways to overthrow the government.
If TMP is a problem of passive realms, it's because the whole realm is passive, not just the government.
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Spot the contradiction?
If realms do not want to go to war, they shouldn't have to. Their passive stature will cause nearby realms to attack them eventually. And if the Ruling Class evades wars, but the majority of the realm wants to go to war, there's plenty of ways to overthrow the government.
If TMP is a problem of passive realms, it's because the whole realm is passive, not just the government.
I don't really agree, (and I don't think Tom did either, when he decided to add TMP, but I'll let him speak for himself).
Passive realms don't get attacked just because they are passive.
But more importantly, you all seem to have forgotten the REASON that TPM was put in place.
Tom didn't decide "I think I'll make all the realms have to fight wars or get punished" just for the hell of it.
He had a REASON.
It IS important to force councils to get involved in more wars, whether they want to be or not.
Players who want war don't influence the inter-realm diplomacy in most places. They just get bored and quit.
cf., Retention Revisited
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Did TMP change anything for Atamara's player retention, for instance?
Dwilight had the best restention, according to Vellos, and I don't think that's thanks to TMP. Quite the opposite, I believe.
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You look at everything from your own perspective - look at it from the perspective of a large group of players who came here to play BATTLEmaster and are instead ordered to do maintenance and training for a silent Council who refuses to go to war or let them in on decision-making.
If Rulers and Dukes are complaining (in this forum), and Common Nobles are lauding it, then it seems pretty good
I do indeed look at it from my perspective: the perspective of a militaristic war-monger.
I would much prefer a subtle and slow advantage over pacifist rivals so that I may march against them when my troops are ready to do so, then have them declare a war that everyone knows was for nothing else than to stave off TMP. Not to mention that these wars are much more likely to be an uninspiring gang-bang, where they join the side with which there is the least risk, than any truly inspiring involvement.
I don't see anyone "lauding" TMP, ever. The best I see is people saying "yea, we do need to push some people to do things somehow".
Also, if you are referring to me when you say "rulers and dukes", then you really are making quite gross generalizations. Does having a rulership or a dukeship suddenly make me some kind of bad player than the game must destroy? The realm my char is ruler/duke of on BT will most certainly not be seeing TMP for a very, very, very long time.
The only place I tolerate a peaceful realm is on Dwilight, anywhere else, I loathe it and never play in such realms, or otherwise work really hard to turn things around. I favor conflict, for without it how can I carve a place out for myself?
That being said, I am not arrogant enough to believe that everyone should be playing exactly as I am. It's bad roleplay if everyone are just constant fighting machines, that go to war for no other reason than to not get hit by TMP. If mindless fighting is what you want, then go play any of the infinite number of RTS or TBS out there. What's the point of playing with hundreds of other players if the game mechanics dictate that everyone must play the exact same way?
Peaceful realms already suffer from lowered attractiveness for new nobles. They also suffer from inertia leading to a generally less efficient army, player-side, and players spending less time on said realm to help it run better. And for this, they become vulnerable. TMP should only accentuate this vulnerability, not become a time bomb that resets every time you have a fight and that quickly brings down all of your troops training if it goes off. This is neither realistic nor fun.
And what's the point, anyways? If you force peaceful realms to go to war, then they'll get involved in a meaningless war where they run no risk. Likely, they will support like-minded realms, who also don't have much ambition. In the end, they'll just hinder the more aggressive and ambitious realms more than anything. Whereas if you don't incite them to go to war with drastic measures, then you can have the aggressive realm more easily win against the peaceful realm's neighbours, establish colonies, and then make the peaceful realm their next target. And then it'll be too late for that peaceful realm, and they will fall. The result will be the creation of many opportunities for many people.
I don't really agree, (and I don't think Tom did either, when he decided to add TMP, but I'll let him speak for himself).
Passive realms don't get attacked just because they are passive.
But more importantly, you all seem to have forgotten the REASON that TPM was put in place.
Tom didn't decide "I think I'll make all the realms have to fight wars or get punished" just for the hell of it.
He had a REASON.
It IS important to force councils to get involved in more wars, whether they want to be or not.
Players who want war don't influence the inter-realm diplomacy in most places. They just get bored and quit.
cf., Retention Revisited
Yes, there was a reason. And that reason was !@#$ing East Continent and Atamara, but especially the East Continent. The other continents did not have this problem. It was *clearly* a problem with the *players*, and not the system.
Also, it's not because he did it that it was a good thing to do. Over the years, we have been bombarded by countless mechanics that severely penalize us if we don't act a certain way. And I don't consider this to be for the best. While there are some things I'm quite happy to no longer see, I don't believe these features have made the game better over the years. Indeed, I think the game was more fun back when I joined in 2006 than it is now. Most of the problems that existed back then still do, but now I often feel I am struggling more against the game mechanics than against rival realms. The whole point of BM was being part of a team and playing against other teams. You now do a lot more maintenance and a lot less fighting with your enemies than you did then.Carrot >> Stick.
Motivate people to play the way we want.
Beating them over the head makes them leave or turns them off.
I love a good war, but it's so hard to convince anyone to do it without it turning into a giant five on one.
Just bloody happy the Aurvandil vs Madina conflict has been left alone.
Indeed, carrots encourage wars in cases where two realms would have otherwise been at comparable strength, but one being peaceful gives the other one the edge it needs to risk itself in a war.
Sticks encourage people who did not want to take any risk to go fight in a war where they will not run any risk.
No risk, no fun.
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TMP should be SLOW. It should be GRADUAL, MANAGEABLE and SCALABLE. It should act with averages over the last month or two, rather than on a timer, with scaled penalties that never go higher than 1% training loss per day, and this only in the most extreme of cases. Declarations of war should have a temporary positive influence on tax tolerance (regardless of whether you declare it yourself or another does), declarations of peace should have a temporary negative influence. Starvations and a bad food supply should offer a scalable tax supply bonus. Amount of fighting should influence peasant strength: as many of these might have served as conscripts and are now retired, realms that often went to war will have more better-trained peasants to rise up against oppressors than realms that never went to war.
TMP should not cause realms to fear it so much that they join in on a lame gang bang just to spare themselves of it. It also makes no sense that whether you go and fight rogues 500 miles away once per few weeks influences what one's tax tolerance is. All it should do is make the realm more fragile.
Further ideas based on the fact that those who never saw any fighting are more likely to flee it at all costs could be:
Regions of regions that are peaceful are more easily TOed.
Regions that secede from peaceful realms do so with better stats.
Rebellions in peaceful realms causes militia to partly disband every TC (therefore making it easier for the rebels).
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why? That doesn't do much of anything, except punish players by not letting them try out different classes. Lack of warfare/lumping armies already does that enough.
If it is "ease" you want, I can assure you the code behind my idea is quite simple. Simpler than the existing code, actually.
Hurting their honor and prestige--and accelerating it for council members the longer they go without war--will eventually force them out of office.
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you don't need h/p for offices, do you? not for elections.
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you don't need h/p for offices, do you? not for elections.
Actually you do. I tried putting one of my chars up for election a few days ago. I forgot that it was a relatively new char who hasn't been in too many battles. I couldn't. You need minimum 10 prestige to announce you're running in a election.
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any elections? or just gov?
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What happends if training hits 0%? My unit is down to 8% now. Will they disband or something? 0 CS?
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any elections? or just gov?
I'm not sure if it's all council positions, or just the ruler. But, code could be changed to where council members who have less than 5 honor or prestige lose their positions.
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What happends if training hits 0%? My unit is down to 8% now. Will they disband or something? 0 CS?
I just looked at mine. 7%. Brutal to have that happen in a week.
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I just looked at mine. 7%. Brutal to have that happen in a week.
Yes, it may drop fast. But it's not like you didn't have quite a bit of warning that it was going to happen. You have to pay attention to those warning messages the game is sending out.
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Yes, it may drop fast. But it's not like you didn't have quite a bit of warning that it was going to happen. You have to pay attention to those warning messages the game is sending out.
Others have already made this point, but I'll make it again.
On Dwilight, with travel times being what they are, it's not enough to put together a hunting party once you start getting the TMP warnings. We did exactly that (we were actually planning an expedition before TMP warnings started IIRC), and we still got hit with it. In winter I imagine it's even worse (though you'll probably get more rogue spawns near or inside your borders).
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Perhaps the warning period could be longer. But even so, it shouldn't be a surprise that you need to keep your realm supplied with constant battles.
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Others have already made this point, but I'll make it again.
On Dwilight, with travel times being what they are, it's not enough to put together a hunting party once you start getting the TMP warnings. We did exactly that (we were actually planning an expedition before TMP warnings started IIRC), and we still got hit with it. In winter I imagine it's even worse (though you'll probably get more rogue spawns near or inside your borders).
Add to this that some realms, such as D'Hara, have significant starvation cycles. TMP always hits exactly when we need all of our armies at home to do civil and police work to prevent realm-wide revolts, when we can least afford to send someone weeks of travel away to sacrifice his unit against rogues so that we may bring our taxes back to normal levels.
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since i can't look up travel time between the lighthouse and sallowtown/etc regions to the east.. how far are they and are those regions to the east hunted to extinction by advy/various lurias?
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TMP always hits exactly when we need all of our armies at home to do civil and police work to prevent realm-wide revolts, when we can least afford to send someone weeks of travel away to sacrifice his unit against rogues so that we may bring our taxes back to normal levels.
One of the things Tom mentioned when TMP was implemented is that the behavior of "Oh noes! The TMP, it hurts us! The army must stay home and do region work!" would not work, and would actually hurt much more than it helped. If your realm is constantly threatened by TMP, then then you will have to do some forward planning. Keep a certain portion of your nobles busy fighting monsters. I'm fairly certain that if you try hard enough, you can keep TMP at bay by fighting plenty of monsters.
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Monster populations seem to have plummeted. Time for an IG WWF?:) Hang all advies! :P
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One of the things Tom mentioned when TMP was implemented is that the behavior of "Oh noes! The TMP, it hurts us! The army must stay home and do region work!" would not work, and would actually hurt much more than it helped. If your realm is constantly threatened by TMP, then then you will have to do some forward planning. Keep a certain portion of your nobles busy fighting monsters. I'm fairly certain that if you try hard enough, you can keep TMP at bay by fighting plenty of monsters.
You misunderstand. TMP isn't doing the hurting, the starvation is. When starvation is hitting large-scale, production plummets to 0% anyways so the tax drop is less important, and the troops are needed for civil work and not fighting, so the training drop is again unimportant (actually means they cost less to maintain).
And I still, to this date, fail to see the point in forcing people to travel for weeks at a time just to pick a few fight with rogues. Because while I don't think we have any (or many) advies, rogues just don't spawn in our lands, and these sea routes aren't travelled overnight.
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If your realm is constantly threatened by TMP, then then you will have to do some forward planning. Keep a certain portion of your nobles busy fighting monsters. I'm fairly certain that if you try hard enough, you can keep TMP at bay by fighting plenty of monsters.
That was the thing for Fissoa, though. We'd been busy all winter and spring fighting horde after horde, and all of a sudden they completely stopped. We basically just looked at each other and said "So... time to go help Madina out in their war?" and by the time we got a few troops through the 31 hour trip back to Fissoa, got them refit and funded and across the 17 hour ferry ride and along the 12 hour trip north to find some rogues we were getting hit with TMP.
I guess we know better now, but that was a pretty harsh awakening. I don't think anyone in Fissoa had seen the effects of TMP before.
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I'm fairly certain that although you get TMP warnings in the winter, it does not have any actual penalties during the winter. (I think it's referred to as "Too Much Snow" or something...) Tim would probably be better to answer that, as he'd know where to look in the code.
It is perhaps worth looking at not how long you get from the first warnings until you start getting penalties, but also the magnitude of the penalties, and how quickly they build up.
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That was the thing for Fissoa, though. We'd been busy all winter and spring fighting horde after horde, and all of a sudden they completely stopped. We basically just looked at each other and said "So... time to go help Madina out in their war?" and by the time we got a few troops through the 31 hour trip back to Fissoa, got them refit and funded and across the 17 hour ferry ride and along the 12 hour trip north to find some rogues we were getting hit with TMP.
I guess we know better now, but that was a pretty harsh awakening. I don't think anyone in Fissoa had seen the effects of TMP before.
Before Aryl came along, there were times Fissoa was barely left standing after an incursion. Admittedly, we had a lot less nobles back then. It's still good to have new people on board, though. Don't get me wrong ;)
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I'm fairly certain that although you get TMP warnings in the winter, it does not have any actual penalties during the winter. (I think it's referred to as "Too Much Snow" or something...) Tim would probably be better to answer that, as he'd know where to look in the code.
It is perhaps worth looking at not how long you get from the first warnings until you start getting penalties, but also the magnitude of the penalties, and how quickly they build up.
I'm not so sure about that. That's what I first thought, since the text is different, but it really did feel like TMP was hitting last time I saw that message...
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I'm not so sure about that. That's what I first thought, since the text is different, but it really did feel like TMP was hitting last time I saw that message...
The problem I have is how soon once winter is over does the affect of the TMP hit? The message implies you are already at the TMP level, do you need to be ready to fight the turn winter ends to avoid it?
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The obvious conclusion of this thread is:
I personally like many of the suggestions made. War is not easy. It is downright costly. Your ability to control your regions deteriorate as your lords are off fighting. Your unit expense rises doe to repairs and replacement. A system that helps mitigate some of these effects would encourage battles.
This. Seeing a "The people feel safe under the protection of you and your knights. Morale rises x%. Loyalty rises y%." in the daily region report if you have nice battles would probably do more to encourage fights than the current system.
Simple solutions like this. Provide incentives and it will work
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I am all for TMP and the damage it does to a realm of hippies. What I don't understand however is why a realm that is actively involved in a war should be fighting strategically useless battles just to avoid getting TMP penalties.
In Thalmarkin on BT we keep getting TMP messages during peace negotiations with Fronen. We have already taken everything we wanted/could and our duty in this war is now more or less to guard the eastern bridge. Last time it happened, we launched an attack on Jyl and had some fun looting, this time the negotiations have evolved, and while we're perfectly capable of finding some other battle, diplomatically it's not advisable in my opinion. Yet, unless we want our armies reduced to utter !@#$e we need to launch a new assault.
TMP is necessary to punish those few tree-huggers amongst us but please don't punish upstanding, warmongering realms who are not fighting battles due to a sensible, working strategy.
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To be fair, Thalmarkin isn't really actively fighting. 2 skirmishes in the 18 days I've been there, and no fighting whatsoever for the last 10 days or so.
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To be fair, Thalmarkin isn't really actively fighting. 2 skirmishes in the 18 days I've been there, and no fighting whatsoever for the last 10 days or so.
BattleMaster is not the game for mindless warfare, though, where you just keep on attacking your neighbour just because you can. There are other games, like War Islands, for that.
There are times for full-out war, and there are times for skirmishes. And even in full-out war, sometimes you are a little far away... I hate to see TMP in realms like Thalmarkin and Madina, it means that the code is really pushing for mindless all-out warfare.
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BattleMaster is not the game for mindless warfare, though, where you just keep on attacking your neighbour just because you can. There are other games, like War Islands, for that.
There are times for full-out war, and there are times for skirmishes. And even in full-out war, sometimes you are a little far away... I hate to see TMP in realms like Thalmarkin and Madina, it means that the code is really pushing for mindless all-out warfare.
There is something more going on here though. Arcaea has not had a proper battle in more then 30 days, just tiny skirmishes against groups of monsters and undead, yet we do not have a TMP warning. Without far more information about the algorithm it is hard to say exactly what is going on, for example how long does the effect of a battle last? What is the weighting system with regards to the size of the battle?
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There is something more going on here though. Arcaea has not had a proper battle in more then 30 days, just tiny skirmishes against groups of monsters and undead, yet we do not have a TMP warning. Without far more information about the algorithm it is hard to say exactly what is going on, for example how long does the effect of a battle last? What is the weighting system with regards to the size of the battle?
It honestly discourages from putting gold in the bounty pot, as it has become prefferable to have the rogues spawn so that the armies can fight them than to avoid having them do a little temporary production damage as they spawn.
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Now that you mention that, when was the last time D'Hara had some rogues spawning in her lands? Perhaps D'Hara needs to go bust up some Adventurers ;)
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Now that you mention that, when was the last time D'Hara had some rogues spawning in her lands? Perhaps D'Hara needs to go bust up some Adventurers ;)
You've stumbled upon the 2nd secret agenda of TMP, to encourage some good old fashioned Adventurer bashing, no more of this wimpy cuddle the advies cause they are useful.
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It honestly discourages from putting gold in the bounty pot, as it has become prefferable to have the rogues spawn so that the armies can fight them than to avoid having them do a little temporary production damage as they spawn.
Absolutely.
If your Realm's leadership is so pathetic that they can't figure out how to get an entertaining war going, and they can't figure out how to send a few troops off to fight as mercenaries in someone else's war, and they can't figure out how to send a few troops off to have some Merry Adventure in the Wild Roguelands killing monsters and beasts, and they can't figure out how to help Blaze the Trail on some Colonial march, then:
Yes, you should probably not encourage adventurers in your realm.
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no bounty in lighthouse.. don't see any spawning there.
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no bounty in lighthouse.. don't see any spawning there.
Regions spawn based on several different factors. They will eventually.
how long have you been tracking? Mind posting your data?
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..well.. lighthouse is rogue.. (since... when? no idea) so can't be that much bounty left if at all.
seeing as the only "battle" in the last 30 days in d'hara is the one where someone got defeated by monsters in Ulitsa this morning, of all places... it's obvious nothing has spawned near the lighthouse, or at least nothing has spawned and got noticed nor wandered into qubel.
i wouldn't rule out advy hunting everything in the lighthouse, seeing as there's at least 1 advy over to the east... but a bit more than not putting bounty in the pot would be needed i would imagine.
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..well.. lighthouse is rogue.. (since... when? no idea) so can't be that much bounty left if at all.
seeing as the only "battle" in the last 30 days in d'hara is the one where someone got defeated by monsters in Ulitsa this morning, of all places... it's obvious nothing has spawned near the lighthouse, or at least nothing has spawned and got noticed nor wandered into qubel.
i wouldn't rule out advy hunting everything in the lighthouse, seeing as there's at least 1 advy over to the east... but a bit more than not putting bounty in the pot would be needed i would imagine.
So, in other words...you're a little vague on what's going on in Lighthouse, and maybe it isn't a good example to use when making your case for or against TMP?
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the point is that nothing is spawning there.. so emptying bounty pot is not the solution on its own.
i'm not making a case for or against tmp.
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the point is that nothing is spawning there.. so emptying bounty pot is not the solution on its own.
i'm not making a case for or against tmp.
Yes, I see that now. My point is, you don't actually know if anything is spawning there, or why.
But you are right - IMO, there are too many advies right now, and so they are hunting out areas whether or not there is a bounty set. So as I said before, you'll need to discourage them through whatever means.
Assuming your Leadership is so pathetic that the only thing they can think of to counter TMP is hunt monsters in their own borders.
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if something spawned there during the month, chances are someone would have noticed, or it would have wandered over.
and that's only the month's message that's kept. tmp was longer than that. but i haven't joined the realm that long.
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when i played advy in ec.. bounty was an afterthought/bonus
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Assuming your Leadership is so pathetic that the only thing they can think of to counter TMP is hunt monsters in their own borders.
I still don';t understand why a "good' leadership should be one needlessly aggressive and eager to conquer. The game sets some limits, be it noble count or simply extension of the land: there are just moments in which it would be suicidal to start wars, so why would be consider pathetic a leadership that just tries not to create chaos out of nowhere?
Frankly on dwilight almost all realms are facing tmp last time I heard. This must mean something..
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I still don';t understand why a "good' leadership should be one needlessly aggressive and eager to conquer. The game sets some limits, be it noble count or simply extension of the land: there are just moments in which it would be suicidal to start wars, so why would be consider pathetic a leadership that just tries not to create chaos out of nowhere?
Frankly on dwilight almost all realms are facing tmp last time I heard. This must mean something..
Yes, that none of them are doing anything interesting...
I probably didn't mention this before, but you don't have to start a war to avoid TMP. Maybe we could sticky that?
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I probably didn't mention this before, but you don't have to start a war to avoid TMP. Maybe we could sticky that?
Organizing expeditions to hunt monsters in rogue territories? everyone's doing that, but it doesn't help so much you know.
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Organizing expeditions to hunt monsters in rogue territories? everyone's doing that, but it doesn't help so much you know.
I don't think "everyone's" doing it, and I don't think that's all of the different ideas you might try.
I would say that the next time you pick a Ruler, you should find one who has the imaginative skills to deal with the problems your realm is going to face.
I DO know that Tom isn't going to suddenly change TMP just 'cuz a half dozen people whine incessantly about it on the forums, so you would do better to ask for advice and ideas on how to combat it than continue with this thread the way it is going.
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I don't think "everyone's" doing it, and I don't think that's all of the different ideas you might try.
I would say that the next time you pick a Ruler, you should find one who has the imaginative skills to deal with the problems your realm is going to face.
I DO know that Tom isn't going to suddenly change TMP just 'cuz a half dozen people whine incessantly about it on the forums, so you would do better to ask for advice and ideas on how to combat it than continue with this thread the way it is going.
Ok, agreed. Do you have any advice or idea on how to combat it?
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Ok, agreed. Do you have any advice or idea on how to combat it?
Yes. I've posted them all over the forums.
Would you like me to come be your ruler and bail you out? Which realm are you in?
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Yes. I've posted them all over the forums.
Would you like me to come be your ruler and bail you out? Which realm are you in?
Morek, and I play the ruler. That's why I am interested in the matter so much, you know ;)
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I don't think "everyone's" doing it, and I don't think that's all of the different ideas you might try.
I would say that the next time you pick a Ruler, you should find one who has the imaginative skills to deal with the problems your realm is going to face.
I DO know that Tom isn't going to suddenly change TMP just 'cuz a half dozen people whine incessantly about it on the forums, so you would do better to ask for advice and ideas on how to combat it than continue with this thread the way it is going.
It is more than half a dozen, and you never know. He has taken feedback before. He has a strong vision for the game, that is true but I think our feedback still matter somewhere.
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Yes. I've posted them all over the forums.
Would you like me to come be your ruler and bail you out? Which realm are you in?
I have worked with Peri's character Bustoarsenzio, and know him to be one of the best rulers/generals in the game. My character will always respect him, and I do so ooc as one player to another. I would dare say that he would be the Jenred of Dwilight if he had to deal with more conflict from the realms around Morek, but Morek has more or less pacified all the realms in the Northeast, through war or fear of the result of war with Morek. They are stretched as far as they can get in land terms, and the only direction they get monster spawns is from the south.
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Morek, and I play the ruler. That's why I am interested in the matter so much, you know ;)
The way to stop TMP is very simple: Battles. The more/bigger battles, the better.
True, finding those battles can be a bit challenging sometimes. Maybe you should invade D'Hara. Seems like everyone's talking about it these days. Must be something good going on there.
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Those guys further south are much juicier targets, promise! We can even send some troops with you to leech off the battles!
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I would dare say that he would be the Jenred of Dwilight if he had to deal with more conflict from the realms around Morek, but Morek has more or less pacified all the realms in the Northeast, through war or fear of the result of war with Morek. They are stretched as far as they can get in land terms, and the only direction they get monster spawns is from the south.
This made my day, by the way. I love it when my characters become reference points!
I believe TO's also help against TMP, which is why Arcaea hasn't had problems. TOing Obtal and Unotosa on top of a few battles against rogues was enough.
May I suggest making common cause with PeL to crusade against the hordes to your south? I'd love to organize a grand Monster Hunt to drive them all back into their dens.
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Well it is clear that the best solution would be traveling to our south and taking down some monsters, the problem is that to our surprise we are going to need some serious efforts - way more serious than we expected - to pull this off: a recently hastily organized expedition couldn't find any monster in the regions just south of our borders besides a lonely group in Weinschenk (not enough to take tmp away) and another group in Fatexna that unfortunately ran away before we could catch them.
Considering that moving between 2 rogue regions takes around 20-25 hours, moving a good amount of nobles south enough to find sufficiently many monsters is definitely not a trivial task but something that must be carefully prepared. Not impossible, but let's just say that it's easier to motivate players to prepare for an expedition against heathens or enemies rather than going on a stars-forgotten divide mountain to club a couple dozen monsters in the head you know..
It's just incredibly more difficult than it once was to find monsters, especially when the few groups that are around in the Unterlands are hunted by Corsanctum to get rid of their TMP too.
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Yeah, and if you go too far, your men start to desert due low moral :)
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I believe TO's also help against TMP, which is why Arcaea hasn't had problems. TOing Obtal and Unotosa on top of a few battles against rogues was enough.
i still don't get how you can travel halfway round the world without equipment damage killing your army.. anyway..
didn't someone down in madina say they got tmp whilst getting around to reTOing the rest of the islands.. guess they didn't TO quick/often enough?
for that matter... you can't loot a rogue region into raising a peasant army for you to kill, can you?
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This made my day, by the way. I love it when my characters become reference points!
I believe TO's also help against TMP, which is why Arcaea hasn't had problems. TOing Obtal and Unotosa on top of a few battles against rogues was enough.
May I suggest making common cause with PeL to crusade against the hordes to your south? I'd love to organize a grand Monster Hunt to drive them all back into their dens.
I'm currently in Astrum leading Allison's army. The player of Garad Jhaelen Irsei has his character hating mine for following Allison instead of staying in Morek... pity that. I believe, since the situation in Dwilight is different than the other continents with longer travel times and the intervening space between realms that would otherwise go to war, I think TMP should be redone for Dwilight. Either make it take longer to take effect, lessen the effects to something approaching manageable, or both. You can't fight when your entire realm is falling apart at the seams because of TMP now can you? It at least makes it much harder.
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Let it fall apart and then fight about picking up the pieces.
Problem solved. ;)
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May I suggest making common cause with PeL to crusade against the hordes to your south? I'd love to organize a grand Monster Hunt to drive them all back into their dens.
Why on earth would you want that? Better milk these hordes for as long as possible than to clear them out swiftly.
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Why on earth would you want that? Better milk these hordes for as long as possible than to clear them out swiftly.
Because unlike the rest of the island, we're still at the "occasionally overwhelmed by hordes" stage rather than the "TMP" stage, and once the borders are pacified and additional farmlands are secured I have various wars in the offing?
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Because unlike the rest of the island, we're still at the "occasionally overwhelmed by hordes" stage rather than the "TMP" stage, and once the borders are pacified and additional farmlands are secured I have various wars in the offing?
Why wait? Attack now! ;D
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Why wait? Attack now! ;D
Note the "occasionally being overwhelmed by hordes" bit. And beyond that, I need more (and more secure) food sources. It'll happen eventually, though.
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Why wait? Attack now! ;D
You do realize that one of his "wars in the offing" is an invasion of D'Hara, right?
Although, perhaps you're counting on that. Give him a good reason, and maybe he will.
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You do realize that one of his "wars in the offing" is an invasion of D'Hara, right?
Although, perhaps you're counting on that. Give him a good reason, and maybe he will.
We would never invade D'Hara. We might however liberate the realm from the misguided current overlords :)
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You do realize that one of his "wars in the offing" is an invasion of D'Hara, right?
Although, perhaps you're counting on that. Give him a good reason, and maybe he will.
I rather prefer it being unprovoked. Wouldn't want to pull a Caerwyn now, would I? 8)
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Caerwyn didn't give us a good reason to attack them. They attacked us. They broke a federation to attack Sanguis Astroism. We just kicked ass afterwards.
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Caerwyn didn't give us a good reason to attack them. They attacked us. They broke a federation to attack Sanguis Astroism. We just kicked ass afterwards.
Precisely.
Had it been the other way around, they would not have fought alone.
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Why don't we just remove TMP and see over two months what the difrence is.
I bet 20 euros there will be more wars instead of less.
There is no need of such feature.
If we really want this feature, we could use this feature for a new bankers option, war tax perhaps?
activating war tax could allow lords to raise taxes with 3/5 % and activate the modified TMP feature, if you dont fight battles, tmp will hit hard, but only if you enable war tax.
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Why don't we just remove TMP and see over two months what the difrence is.
I bet 20 euros there will be more wars instead of less.
There is no need of such feature.
I have fought fewer wars in the last few years than ever. When I started playing wars happened all the time on the FEI and were constant. Same in Bel.
Now everyone spends time trying to manage regions and fend off TMP by hunting monsters in between wars, rather than fighting wars.
Kill TMP, place incentives for fighting wars. New estate system should fix the issue with regions needing so much maintenance.
Players are more afraid of TMP than other Realms - and TMP just places incentives for EVERYONE to jump into one single war to keep it aware, rather than be plotting to hit their neighbours in the back for a few regions (or duchies) while their armies are away.
Could be cause most people can't get their army out of their own regions now before TMP cripples them.
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I have fought fewer wars in the last few years than ever. When I started playing wars happened all the time on the FEI and were constant. Same in Bel.
Now everyone spends time trying to manage regions and fend off TMP by hunting monsters in between wars, rather than fighting wars.
Kill TMP, place incentives for fighting wars. New estate system should fix the issue with regions needing so much maintenance.
Players are more afraid of TMP than other Realms - and TMP just places incentives for EVERYONE to jump into one single war to keep it aware, rather than be plotting to hit their neighbours in the back for a few regions (or duchies) while their armies are away.
Could be cause most people can't get their army out of their own regions now before TMP cripples them.
Indeed. Just for taking the time to TO a rogue region between campaigns, my realm is now getting the TMP warning. Granted, it's not the actual effect yet, but it is rather absurd that taking the time to takeover regions is discouraged.
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Indeed. Just for taking the time to TO a rogue region between campaigns, my realm is now getting the TMP warning. Granted, it's not the actual effect yet, but it is rather absurd that taking the time to takeover regions is discouraged.
And now it says it's kicking in. What bull!@#$. We aren't to blame if Nothoi didn't send their army in a coherent matter. And is taking our time to do a takeover that !@#$ing bad? (We just did the takeover, took a few days, and moved right out, didn't need to stay for maintenance).
Here's a new strategy for you all: avoidance. Just avoid fighting the enemy, and TMP will kill his army. Doesn't matter if you pick a few fights, apparently, or if he gets to loot a little bit (though in this case bugs prevented us from doing much of it). Find somewhere else to have a few battles, avoid your enemy, and then when his forces are all out of shape, about a week later considering how fast the effects are, it's an easy win.
I mean, come on! We are rallying abroad, and the game is telling us "don't wait for stragglers, go get yourself killed!"
Sure, I expect D'Hara to get TMP. But Fheuv'n? All we've been doing is military stuff. We had battles with rogues, battles with another human realm (none of the battles were large, but we aren't a large realm either), did a takeover... And the game doesn't give a damn.
Also, I hadn't paid much attention before, but I accepted for truth when people said "ample warning". We got 2 days. Two damn days, that's a *maximum* of 4 regions away you can make in 2 days. Many realms don't have any neighbors within 4 regions from their capital! And then, simply getting into enemy land isn't a guaranteed fight, either. And this code is saying "don't stop here to loot, push further for battles!" Because battles are obviously better than looting 100% of the time. >:(
I was never found of TMP, but this is borderline retarded. We are at war, and our last battle was 5 days ago. If it checks only the sizes of the battles, then that's stupid, because we are a small realm and 1) we can't be blamed if Nothoi sent their forces in waves as well as 2) it would force us to always fight as a blob ourselves in order to make sure out battles were "large" enough for that script. We are at war, we *need* that training to remain good. As for desertions, as we seceded not that long ago, we are still short on good and large RCs.
We are at war, we are fighting battles against both humans and rogues, and TMP is about to cripple our ability to fight. If we were on the border, that would be just enough to make us pull out of the war, as being on the frontlines under these conditions is suicidal.
Why do all these "incentives" always have to be so freaking radical? Why is it always "do it *this* way, or suffer for it".
I've said it before. If we are to have a TMP code, it should be SLOW. Should take a while to kick in, and should take much, much longer to have any noticeable effect. It should also not act as a time bomb (with a godly 2 days warning...), but rather act on bi-monthly averages.
I would love to get in the next battle quicker, but that's not up to me. We must wait for stragglers, and we must then hope that the enemy presents a sizable force when we move into his territory. This should not be how a realm's peace levels are calculated.
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Yes... the plot is working perfectly ;D
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Yes... the plot is working perfectly ;D
In addition, tax tolerance will go down the drain, and our region stats might drop like crazy next turn because "taxes are stupidly high", something I've seen happen over TC in D'Hara before. Which may force our lords to go back to keep their city from revolting. And since our lords consist of about half the nobles...
I've never thought the code could act in such a stupid way.
Even if we did the strategically stupid and backstabbed Enweil, we wouldn't actually meet any forces and so we'd still have TMP. There is absolutely nothing more we can do than we are already doing. Does that mean that taking over rogue regions next to oneself is a bad thing? Really?
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Battles:
Battle in Drinilla (5 days, 12 hours ago)
(rogue) vs. Imperskoe Viys'ko iz Fheuv'na
Battle in Drinilla (6 days, 12 hours ago)
Imperskoe Viys'ko iz Fheuv'na vs. (rogue)
Battle in Drinilla (8 days, 12 hours ago)
Imperskoe Viys'ko iz Fheuv'na vs. (rogue)
Battle in Drinilla (9 days ago)
(rogue) vs. Imperskoe Viys'ko iz Fheuv'na
Battle in Zuhle (18 days ago)
Imperskoe Viys'ko iz Fheuv'na vs. (rogue)
Battle in Gaxano (18 days, 12 hours ago)
Imperskoe Viys'ko iz Fheuv'na vs. Nothoi
Battle in Zisswii (19 days, 12 hours ago)
Imperskoe Viys'ko iz Fheuv'na vs. Nothoi
Battle in Gaxano (20 days ago)
Imperskoe Viys'ko iz Fheuv'na vs. Nothoi
Battle in Zisswii (20 days, 12 hours ago)
Fronen, Imperskoe Viys'ko iz Fheuv'na vs. Nothoi
Battle in Zisswii (21 days ago)
Fronen, Imperskoe Viys'ko iz Fheuv'na vs. Nothoi
Battle in Gaxano (22 days ago)
Nothoi vs. Fronen, Imperskoe Viys'ko iz Fheuv'na
Battle in Piwani (26 days ago)
Imperskoe Viys'ko iz Fheuv'na vs. (rogue)
Battle in Zuhle (26 days, 12 hours ago)
Imperskoe Viys'ko iz Fheuv'na vs. (rogue)
Battle in Zuhle (27 days ago)
Imperskoe Viys'ko iz Fheuv'na vs. (rogue)
Battle in Eg Tutnu (28 days ago)
Imperskoe Viys'ko iz Fheuv'na vs. (rogue)
And that doesn't count the looting.
But hey, obviously they aren't getting all these battles and looting they called for, right? Certainly taking a few days to do a takeover is completely unjustified...
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2) it would force us to always fight as a blob ourselves in order to make sure out battles were "large" enough for that script.
The day I'd thought I'd never see. The day Battlemaster turned into a turn-based AstroEmpires. Thanks TMP.
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Maybe its just a bug?
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weird that we have not heard an official statement from the devs yet, never saw a feature been hated so much by so many players.
It's clear to me it should go.
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...Somehow, I missed this topic completely.
The devs have been quite busy with the Doctrine overhaul and the New Estates lately, but we are starting to look forward again, and we are beginning discussions about some possible overhauls of TMP. We recognize that it's far from perfect, and we did tweak it a few months ago, but it may need further tweakage, or a complete replacement.
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...Somehow, I missed this topic completely.
The devs have been quite busy with the Doctrine overhaul and the New Estates lately, but we are starting to look forward again, and we are beginning discussions about some possible overhauls of TMP. We recognize that it's far from perfect, and we did tweak it a few months ago, but it may need further tweakage, or a complete replacement.
I'd say lets just try without for a while.
Perhaps there is no need for it.
if nothing changes in two/three months, reinstall a modified version of the TMP we have now, test it for 3 months also and compare again.
We won't see major outbreaks of war in case of sucses but rather a change in how diplomacy is handled by some.
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Maybe its just a bug?
Doubt it. The way I understand the system works, it disadvantages small realms since they can't have large battles as easily to stave it off. 2500 CS is peanuts to most realms, but to small realms, that's a third of our total forces. And since we are small, we are picking on smaller targets. And since they are small, any military disorder on their part translates into battles being very small, with less than 1500 CS on their side (and Nothoi was very, *very* bad).
Also, a bug prevented us from doing the looting we had gone to Nothoi to do, forcing us to return for a refit and only being able to loot once on the last turn.
If Astrums had not had any battles except what we've had this last month, then I could understand them getting told they should go pick bigger fights. But in small realms? Every man counts even in the small skirmishes against rogues.
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And since we are small...
FWIW - Your BT realm is not considered "small" by the code. Therefore you don't get the small realm protections built into the TMP code.
Also FWIW - The dev team is currently considering a major overhaul to the TMP system. (Yes, we know there are some problems with it.) If we do overhaul it, then it won't happen until after New Estates is running on Live servers. (Tom currently has functional code for New Estates on the Dev server that is being tested now.)
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Guess it would be too much to ask for you guys to pull the TMP script until you overhaul it eh?
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Guess it would be too much to ask for you guys to pull the TMP script until you overhaul it eh?
There is no "TMP script." TMP code exists in multiple places in several scripts.
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FWIW - Your BT realm is not considered "small" by the code. Therefore you don't get the small realm protections built into the TMP code.
Seriously?
Imperskoe Viys'ko iz Fheuv'na few players, tiny realm, many enemies
Talk about being inconsistent. If Fheuv'n isn't small, then what the hell is? 1 tiny city with 6 rurals... Are you telling me that the acquisition of this sixth rural made the game no longer consider my realm as "small" when it comes to TMP, and therefore decided to punish us for growing, when the region has yet to increase our overall income in any significant way?
There are just so many things totally wrong about how TMP is affecting Fheuv'n right now. It's really trying to punish everything except one thing: participating in constant mindless huge blob battles. No tactics. No takeovers.
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Talk about being inconsistent. If Fheuv'n isn't small, then what the hell is? 1 tiny city with 6 rurals...
I don't know the exact requirements for size when it comes to the TMP script. Different game mechanics don't use the same limits, and I really don't have them all memorized. What I do know is that Fheuve-whatever is above that limit.
There are just so many things totally wrong about how TMP is affecting Fheuv'n right now. It's really trying to punish everything except one thing: participating in constant mindless huge blob battles. No tactics. No takeovers.
I agree that TMP has some issues. That's why we are looking at revising how it works.
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I agree that TMP has some issues. That's why we are looking at revising how it works.
In the meantime, I have to pray, because if TMP affects our regions as I saw it do to Paisly in D'Hara, all of our regions are going to revolt while our army is abroad...
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In the meantime, I have to pray, because if TMP affects our regions as I saw it do to Paisly in D'Hara, all of our regions are going to revolt while our army is abroad...
Welcome to the fun of playing a game that is in constant beta :)
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Strength: 17 men
Training: 0 %
Weapons/Armour: 34% / 56%
Damage: 20 %
Morale: 0 %
Cohesion: 27 %
Combat Strength: 58
I didn't even know that 0% would be allowed.
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Strength: 17 men
Training: 0 %
Weapons/Armour: 34% / 56%
Damage: 20 %
Morale: 0 %
Cohesion: 27 %
Combat Strength: 58
I didn't even know that 0% would be allowed.
Wait 'till next turn, it'll loop back to >9000 training and morale!
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Well, TMP is now ACTIVELY reducing wars.
Fissoa is currently so crippled by TMP that they are unable to actually send an army to Madina - they can't fight a war because of TMP. Irony much?
Now, That's some awesome game mechanics right there. Stick = fail. Carrot = good.
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So send your piece of crap, 0% training army, lose it, getting rid of the TMP penalties in the process, recruit a decent one, and go hit them again.
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So send your piece of crap, 0% training army, lose it, getting rid of the TMP penalties in the process, recruit a decent one, and go hit them again.
But how silly is it that a realm can't prepare itself rightfully for a war? Build up, save some gold, build their army and then go attack.
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And I'll just say this, too, because someone has to say it: GDoF has been sitting on its ass for *years* doing nothing. Never fighting any meaningful war with anyone. Now when TMP penalties finally hit, it's suddenly TMP's fault that they can't attack anyone? That's a load of crap.
TMP is obviously not perfect. But it's also not the reason that certain realms aren't fighting.
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So send your piece of crap, 0% training army, lose it, getting rid of the TMP penalties in the process, recruit a decent one, and go hit them again.
Oh, the idiocy involved in TMP is making my nose bleed profusely.
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And that's the perfect attitude to take to motivate the dev team to change it, too.
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So send your piece of crap, 0% training army, lose it, getting rid of the TMP penalties in the process, recruit a decent one, and go hit them again.
This is exactly what I'm going to try to get them to do.
However IC reason why. . . I'm really at a loss. I can't afford to send my 15K army to lose a fight because GDoF has a force that should be 15K and is 3K instead.
The fact that it's an OOC work around is more the problem for me.
I can't justify telling them to throw their army against Candiels because it sucks. But that's exactly WHAT they need to do.
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Can't you just flat out tell them that his army is weak and poorly trained, and that he needs to recruit a new one? It's the OC truth, right? Of course, you'll probably need to be more diplomatic than that.
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Can't you just flat out tell them that his army is weak and poorly trained, and that he needs to recruit a new one? It's the OC truth, right? Of course, you'll probably need to be more diplomatic than that.
Yes, but the TMP will still be hitting them, and the resulting loss of training will still have severe impacts on their forces. Recruiting an entire new army will take several days, assuming they are harsh drafting, then it's a good week travel time with Siege Engines.
They will still have a much weaker army than they started out with. And the confound is the battle and refit times will probably STILL see TMP hitting them on their return -.-
At this point I'm hoping TMP hits Aurvandil so they lose troop strength so I can attack -.- lol.
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Yeah, it is a crappy situation. But they'll have to make do with what they have. They've been isolationists and loners for years. Now it's finally caught up with them.
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Send those Fissoan troops up to help fight the hordes north of PeL. Even 3K could do good work, you'd get TMP reduced, and you have an IC rationale with the alliance talks with Luria ("We help on the crusades, you help with Madina...").
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You could send 1k CS. after the battle, have the remaining 2k CS train like crazy. when the 1k (whatever's left of it) returns, have the 2k (hopefully better than that) go on the attack, while the 1k army recruits up. Between the two armies you should be able to avoid TMP, and you won't have to throw away ALL your army on the first attack.
TMP still hitting too much? Split your army into 3, and keep them constantly rotating.
Does this go against everything that Sun Tzu teaches in the Art of War? yes. But this is the song and dance you must perform.
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You could send 1k CS. after the battle, have the remaining 2k CS train like crazy. when the 1k (whatever's left of it) returns, have the 2k (hopefully better than that) go on the attack, while the 1k army recruits up. Between the two armies you should be able to avoid TMP, and you won't have to throw away ALL your army on the first attack.
TMP still hitting too much? Split your army into 3, and keep them constantly rotating.
Does this go against everything that Sun Tzu teaches in the Art of War? yes. But this is the song and dance you must perform.
Splitting one's forces is particularily problematic when sieges are involved.
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Unit Status Report (just in)
Your men are loudly complaining about being marched so far from their homes, and their morale is dropping.
Your men desert en bloc, leaving you alone! The traitors even attack and tie you, then take all of your gold! Word of your bad leadership spreads and your honour drops one point.
There goes 600+ gold...and I would gladly have fought any monsters or undead I had ran into.
I had paid them the day before if you're curious.
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Unit Status Report (just in)
Your men are loudly complaining about being marched so far from their homes, and their morale is dropping.
Your men desert en bloc, leaving you alone! The traitors even attack and tie you, then take all of your gold! Word of your bad leadership spreads and your honour drops one point.
There goes 600+ gold...and I would gladly have fought any monsters or undead I had ran into.
I had paid them the day before if you're curious.
Give yourself a good kick - it's completely your own foolishness.
You need to use mercenary settings, stop by friendly cities for a little R&R, and pay attention to morale and damage. Just like anywhere else, under any other circumstances.
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Give yourself a good kick - it's completely your own foolishness.
You need to use mercenary settings, stop by friendly cities for a little R&R, and pay attention to morale and damage. Just like anywhere else, under any other circumstances.
I think he was saying that TMP caused the morale to plummet. Even with Mercenary settings, more than likely.
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I think he was saying that TMP caused the morale to plummet. Even with Mercenary settings, more than likely.
I thought it only affected their training. Anyway, this is still the same old story.
You see how bad TMP hurts, so time to stop whining and start fighting someone.
Actually, that time was along time ago, which is why you're in pain now.
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morale, cohesion, all drop to zip, heh. he's a trader, so merc as standard
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I thought it only affected their training. Anyway, this is still the same old story.
You see how bad TMP hurts, so time to stop whining and start fighting someone.
Actually, that time was along time ago, which is why you're in pain now.
It isn't that easy if you don't want to just declare war on someone.
For Fissoa for example, due to TMP it can send to little to attack candiels, so it won't see any battles there.
If there was no tmp, there could be a battle.
But alas, winter is coming, there should be enough to fight.
This is not whining it's just pointing out where the game fails.
BM is a beta game where a whole comunity thinks together on how to improve it.
Rather constructive if you ask me.
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I thought it only affected their training. Anyway, this is still the same old story.
You see how bad TMP hurts, so time to stop whining and start fighting someone.
Actually, that time was along time ago, which is why you're in pain now.
Again Jens, TMP is the reason we don't have more war.
You think Madina is sitting in the Tower for fun? It's because our allies cant come help us because of TMP reducing their armies to nothing. I've spent weeks trying to get allies and people in to help us fight (and to ensure certain Realms won't join in - which is just as important).
2-3 weeks ago I had the potential for a 25K vs 20K battle royale - all I needed was a bit of time and for Madina to get a siege workshop. Now I'm stuck twiddling my thumbs because of TMP effects hoping to gods that we can keep TMP away until Fissoa is ready to fight again since they will not be fielding 10-12KCS like we need them too.
I should NOT have to be worrying about TMP effects during a freaking war. Nor should TMP make it impossible for another Realm to fight.
The system is BROKEN. Plain and simple.
You want people to fight - I will say what I said to start with - you encourage them to do it. TMP has ONLY EVER STOPPED FIGHTING -- ruin regions, ruin armies -- thats not motivation to fight, that's motivation to fix regions or train units. People inherently do not want to fight a war when they are at a disadvantage yet that's exactly what TMP does. Fighting for TMP always been to PREVENT !@#$ from happening. No one wants to fight anymore because it's fun - we end up fighting because we have too. That is the exact mentality that has developed in the last few years with TMP and that's a serious problem
Encourage people, reward them, give them a good damn reason to fight. Because you'll get screwed over by TMP is not motivation, never has been, and never will be. Basic basic basic conditioning principles - punishment is extremely ineffective and leads to unintended and undesirable results. Rewards are extremely effective, and when presented in a consistent manner (with random rewards attached) becomes exceptionally addictive and compelling.
TMP currently does not encourage fighting. It encourages avoiding TMP (which is what we see - fight monsters, fight small battles, avoid TMP) and just pisses off players whose realms and plans get screwed - then we bitch on the forums and that just upsets the hardworking dev's. No one is happy at the end of the day -.-
I can't fight a war, I can't encourage players to stay, and I have only TWO bad options left now because of TMP. Attack Candiels with a vastly smaller force against a fortified city (lose) OR leave my Capital exposed and march 15K of troops through a neutral Realm which would then (along with it's 2 allies) attack Madina as a result. Yup. Brilliant plans either way - if I wanted to destroy my realm . . or my option is to stop fighting and go back to fighting beasts to avoid TMP.
Woot. Excellent options all around. Was this because of another Realm or players it'd be fine. But it's HIGHLY aggravating coming from game coding and programming.
I have done less fighting since TMP came out combined than I did in my two years of BM on either FEI and SEI. I came to Dwilight with some 430 honour and 49-50 Prestige. That was what 3-4 years ago? since then I've only gained minimal honour and lost prestige. The rest of my Characters have fared the same - the majority of their stats are from pre-TMP time, despite attempts to join warring realms and to get fights going. There have only been two significant changes since Dwilight came in - TMP and Estates - both of which a large amount of player base has argued had serious flaws.
I don't think the player base is wrong in either case. I think the changes to estates going into effect will be excellent and help return some focus to warring and battles - hopefully some changes can be made after to TMP to return the focus to wars as well.
Of course, there is an Irony here, considering that SEI and SWI were sunk - but those islands had some of the most fun I had outside of Nighthelm and Dwilight. And really Nighthelm was just a giant war machine.
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Again Jens, TMP is the reason we don't have more war.
You think Madina is sitting in the Tower for fun? It's because our allies cant come help us because of TMP reducing their armies to nothing. I've spent weeks trying to get allies and people in to help us fight (and to ensure certain Realms won't join in - which is just as important).
2-3 weeks ago I had the potential for a 25K vs 20K battle royale - all I needed was a bit of time and for Madina to get a siege workshop. Now I'm stuck twiddling my thumbs because of TMP effects hoping to gods that we can keep TMP away until Fissoa is ready to fight again since they will not be fielding 10-12KCS like we need them too.
I should NOT have to be worrying about TMP effects during a freaking war. Nor should TMP make it impossible for another Realm to fight.
The system is BROKEN. Plain and simple.
You want people to fight - I will say what I said to start with - you encourage them to do it. TMP has ONLY EVER STOPPED FIGHTING -- ruin regions, ruin armies -- thats not motivation to fight, that's motivation to fix regions or train units. People inherently do not want to fight a war when they are at a disadvantage yet that's exactly what TMP does. Fighting for TMP always been to PREVENT !@#$ from happening. No one wants to fight anymore because it's fun - we end up fighting because we have too. That is the exact mentality that has developed in the last few years with TMP and that's a serious problem
Encourage people, reward them, give them a good damn reason to fight. Because you'll get screwed over by TMP is not motivation, never has been, and never will be. Basic basic basic conditioning principles - punishment is extremely ineffective and leads to unintended and undesirable results. Rewards are extremely effective, and when presented in a consistent manner (with random rewards attached) becomes exceptionally addictive and compelling.
TMP currently does not encourage fighting. It encourages avoiding TMP (which is what we see - fight monsters, fight small battles, avoid TMP) and just pisses off players whose realms and plans get screwed - then we bitch on the forums and that just upsets the hardworking dev's. No one is happy at the end of the day -.-
I can't fight a war, I can't encourage players to stay, and I have only TWO bad options left now because of TMP. Attack Candiels with a vastly smaller force against a fortified city (lose) OR leave my Capital exposed and march 15K of troops through a neutral Realm which would then (along with it's 2 allies) attack Madina as a result. Yup. Brilliant plans either way - if I wanted to destroy my realm . . or my option is to stop fighting and go back to fighting beasts to avoid TMP.
Woot. Excellent options all around. Was this because of another Realm or players it'd be fine. But it's HIGHLY aggravating coming from game coding and programming.
I have done less fighting since TMP came out combined than I did in my two years of BM on either FEI and SEI. I came to Dwilight with some 430 honour and 49-50 Prestige. That was what 3-4 years ago? since then I've only gained minimal honour and lost prestige. The rest of my Characters have fared the same - the majority of their stats are from pre-TMP time, despite attempts to join warring realms and to get fights going. There have only been two significant changes since Dwilight came in - TMP and Estates - both of which a large amount of player base has argued had serious flaws.
I don't think the player base is wrong in either case. I think the changes to estates going into effect will be excellent and help return some focus to warring and battles - hopefully some changes can be made after to TMP to return the focus to wars as well.
Of course, there is an Irony here, considering that SEI and SWI were sunk - but those islands had some of the most fun I had outside of Nighthelm and Dwilight. And really Nighthelm was just a giant war machine.
You should have plopped down a lot of militia or got allies involved earlier, or simply done some diplomatic hocus pocus and taken the boat like Jens did with 3,000cs to smash up their hinterlands. Or some similar combination.
The FACT is - we haven't been sitting around for a month because of TMP. We've been doing it from a lack of ideas.
We have a lack of ideas because we have a lack of sharing and speaking in the realm. Instead, we have 3-4 people who play the game privately and expect the rest of us to sit around guarding the Tower.
That is PRECISELY why Tom implemented TMP. Because he wants leadership like that in Madina to fail.
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You should have plopped down a lot of militia or got allies involved earlier, or simply done some diplomatic hocus pocus and taken the boat like Jens did with 3,000cs to smash up their hinterlands. Or some similar combination.
The FACT is - we haven't been sitting around for a month because of TMP. We've been doing it from a lack of ideas.
We have a lack of ideas because we have a lack of sharing and speaking in the realm. Instead, we have 3-4 people who play the game privately and expect the rest of us to sit around guarding the Tower.
That is PRECISELY why Tom implemented TMP. Because he wants leadership like that in Madina to fail.
Sorry but i have to completly disagree.
I get where your heading, but your in the wrong place.
This is BM, we are a community and we express our opinions.
Your saying we should stop that and just let the devs and Tom do everything them selves.
your right that Tom wanted to implement TMP to increase wars, but it simply didn't.
Many of us would say it even reduced the amount of battles and wars.
But thats what's BM is all about: trial and error.
We try something, discuss it and then improve, modify or remove it based on the results.
The whole point of it is to have things fail so we learn and move foward(beyond the known horizons of gaming).
Because we stupid humans can only come to innovation or change in this way.
and btw guys, a good way around tmp is to TO a rogue region every week.
If you do it right, you let the region go rogue immediately after the TO so you can TO the same region over and over again.
perhaps handy untill things have changed.
And btw, leadership can change in game, tmp not, so whos whining now?
Go and change it.
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Yes can we please turn this into a TMP rant. (disclaimer: please don't mind the language I'm very frustrated) IF WE ARE NOT GOING TO FIX TMP THEN LETS JUST GET !@#$ING RID OF IT.
Sorry. This is just silly. Ok I know it sounds lovely to "get creative" but when can we just drop the act and admit this is quite silly? Before I write a page of reasons why TMP should be turfed (or changed completely) lets begin with this: is it not dramatic example of how bad Tmp is when it prevents realms from fighting effectively.
You should have plopped down a lot of militia
Militia gets affected by tmp...
That is PRECISELY why Tom implemented TMP. Because he wants leadership like that in Madina to fail.
And Fissoa? We've recently got a cool new government where it's official policy to share nothing behind closed doors. Are we being punished too? Actually lets just punish everyone for existing. Cool.
EDIT:
And I'll just say this, too, because someone has to say it: GDoF has been sitting on its ass for *years* doing nothing. Never fighting any meaningful war with anyone. Now when TMP penalties finally hit, it's suddenly TMP's fault that they can't attack anyone? That's a load of crap. < Shenron's head actually pops at this point.
TMP is obviously not perfect. But it's also not the reason that certain realms aren't fighting.
Rob I would love to tear off your testicles right now.
Since you don't have a character in this realm, I guess I can't blame you for being ignorant of the fact that we are trying pretty damn hard to get stuff organized and just as we are about to send a a pretty sexy force over the channel, TMP makes everything useless. Let me tell you first hand, I am not exaggerating when I say that TMP is the sole reason that we now can't fight Aurvandil. Our armies are for once, a decent size, with a decent activity and organization, and then TMP knocks us flat on our faces.
I wouldn't be surprised if some of the newbs (who we have been cultivating for a while) leave because of this crap.
And yes I am angry.
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My character was elected Grand Duke in Fissoa not very long ago. I'll just tell you of my experience within the realm.
I joined BM a few years ago. My first character wasn't very enjoyable, but my second was. After a short period in Myern (until it's downfall) I joined Fissoa. And I have never regret it.
In the beginning, things were quite static. The Ruler and Duke position were solid, politics were lame. Region Lords rarely changed, and little communication occured. Apart from the permanent cold war with PeL, nothing ever happened, really. I'm unsure how many players Fissoa had a long time ago, but when I joined the realm was probably doing pretty bad, and things kept going worse. There was a time where we had maybe 12 players for 9 regions.
Ever since I joined, I have invested time and effort to spice things up. The Fissoa Verminators were an example, as well as the great discussions I had with Shenron. Slowly I managed to acquire a certain standing within the realm, and ever since, I've been trying to revert the bad developements within the realm.
The High Command was abolished, the government structure reformed, the Verminators started, armies reorganised (though perhaps not very succesfully), ties make, changed or weakened, a new body of laws and so on. To the outside world it might seem nothing every happens in Fissoa, but I must contest this. We've been working to create a better environment within the realm, with more cooperation and more things going on.
And now, all of that is threatened by TMP.
I wouldn't love anything more than to lead an army against Candiels, D'Hara, the Astroist realms or wherever. But we are simply unable to do so - and if we would ever be, it would be because we'd circumvent TMP (such as by raiding rogue lands, the 'fake TO' as suggested by Nosferatus, ...). That's just lame.
Fissoa has limited options, being bordered by two realms of which one is our long-standing ally, and the other is a newly discovered friend. I simply refuse to get rid of all of that history, tradition and effort just because we are hit by TMP. All we can really do is send an army against Aurvandil, but it is exactly TMP that is keeping us from advancing.
Nonetheless, we are trying hard to get something going. It is just very difficult and slow to do so, thanks to TMP. I'm not going to give up just yet, but slowly frustrations are building up - I can really feel Shenron here.
TMP breaks immersion, prevents wars, and is not fun. I can understand the ideas behind it, and they certainly have or had merit, but for as far as I can see, it totally misses it's goal at the moment. Perhaps a revision could fix these issues, but until they are resolved, I strongly suggest we get rid of it, at least temporarily.
Edit: I am aware Fissoa doesn't have the most sexy reputation in Dwilight, let alone in Battlemaster. But I've been trying to change that, honestly. There is a reason I fly Fissoan colours under my forum name: I love the realm. Without it, I wouldn't be in BM anymore.
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SURPRISE!
We just introduced a new thing called TMP.
It's brand new, and we know you had absolutely zero warning it was coming.,
Oops!
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I will never understand how TMP on Dwilight can be so bad that it cripples a realm. There's tens of thousands of CS worth of rogue hordes all around the island. Sure, TMP has had some harsh effects, but half of you are acting like the devs just sprung it on you out of the blue. It's been around for a pretty long time now, yet people still manage to get blindsided somehow.
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Ah, but Sasha, it is completely, 100% the Devs' fault...
You see, they kept it in testing for so long, no one took it seriously.
They were supposed to spend the last year or so preparing, but instead they decided it was just another annoying daily message to ignore, so they got whacked.
Entirely the Dev team's fault.
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Let's make one last effort.
Madina dies. So !@#$ing what?
Darka dies? So !@#$ing what?
Realm X dies? So !@#$ing what?
You just simple don't get it.
TMP is a purely OOC way for Tom to tell you,
"You are a !@#$ing failure in my game. You aren't playing the way I want you to. Leave now and let some one else have a go."
Tom and the average player doesn't give a flying !@#$ if your realm lives or dies. They are here to have fun.
If keeping your realm alive means sacrificing the fun of the players of the realm, your realm should die.
Get it now?
If everything you do is for the sake of keeping an online, fantasy realm's name alive in exchange for the complete boredom of 20+ players,
Your realm should die.
Get it now?
Now one !@#$ing cares if your realm lasts forever, if the players who made it that way all quit the game from boredom.
Get it now?
Before you come here and bitch, step back for a moment and look at your realm in a negative light, and look at how many messages were exchanged, and how much say the average player had in the decision making of your realm
There are a lot of "patterns" you can try to glean, but the one I've noticed most - realms where everyone participates actively in decision making doesn't have TMP problems.
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Please, do try to add something useful to the conversation. Sarcastic comments that in no way move the discussion forward are at best not useful, and at worst cause a discussion to be brought to a standstill because some people thought it would be funny to make fun of other forumers comments on a topic. In fact, I have seen this turn into a trend for both Sacha and Jens Namtrah. It is getting annoying, as I have been seeing it on more than one topic.
Would you like someone making jokes about your apparent lack of intelligence to make meaningful conversation on a subject? No? Then type something that needs more thought than that of a ten year old.
Back on topic. I feel that TMP as it is effects too many things that are required in order to effectively fight a war, and I also think that it should take longer to take effect when at war with someone. "Why?", you may ask. I feel that it should take longer to take effect during war because often refit times will lead to a certain amount of time with little or no battles taking place, and I've had it happen twice in Darka, where during a refit we have started getting TMP notices even though we are headed back to the front. Not only that, but often one army will be at a slight disadvantage to the other. Often this means the best strategy would be the Fabian strategy, avoiding decisive battles but picking off stragglers and so on. Therefore you would not be fighting battles, but would be waiting for the right time to strike a decisive blow. TMP thus favors larger realms in a way that is above and beyond simply greater numbers and strength crushing you, but taking one of a smaller realms few viable strategies and throwing it out the window. I'm not saying a larger realm shouldn't be able to absolutely crush a smaller realm if they each have equal leadership, but the larger realm has more resources to throw into battle. I'm saying that a smaller (read: 14 region 2 city realm versus 20 region 3 city realm) realm should be able to use viable strategies, rather than rush into a already lost battle for fear of TMP.
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Let's make one last effort.
Madina dies. So !@#$ing what?
Darka dies? So !@#$ing what?
Realm X dies? So !@#$ing what?
You just simple don't get it.
TMP is a purely OOC way for Tom to tell you,
"You are a !@#$ing failure in my game. You aren't playing the way I want you to. Leave now and let some one else have a go."
You seem to think the problem in every single realm is bad leadership, but if the majority of realms in bm has leadership problems, it is not the leaders, it is human nature.
And TMP is not solving human nature.
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I can really feel Shenron here.
Ow i bet you do... :o
on topic: I really agree with what you two butt-budies said, completly. Tmp should either be removed or something completely else should take its place after we tried a few months without tmp.
and yes, i noticed tmp does effect unit morale, some how.
I've seen many units beeing payed 2 times a week who stay within there own realm drop to 0/25% morale during the ultimate stage of tmp.
It also effects morale(when you don't drop taxes with atleast a quarter) in regions which give you low morale troops when recruiting, solution would be lowering taxes so you can buy only less troops, who you can't send off to battle anyway because once they reach there they will have 0 training, especially on Dwilight.
The questions is not if its manageable to prevent tmp, because it is, simply start a to in a rogue region.
Or even if the effects of tmp are managable once they hit.
But the real question is, do we really need it? does it really bring more wars?
In my opinion only if you can answer this question with yes (and off course examples that proof it), we should think of keeping tmp and asking other question like is it manageable or not.
As long as we can't answer this most important quistion, we should simply remove it.
the defense for tmp does make sense but again, do we actually need this?
I mean how far do we know tmp is positively effecting people to declare war? and what kind of war?
Does it really spark interesting wars or will it only turn realms like Melhed to join an already gang bang because its realm is falling apart due to tmp.
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You seem to think the problem in every single realm is bad leadership, but if the majority realms in bm has leadership problems, it is not the leaders, it is human nature.
And TMP is not solving human nature.
+1 :P
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Am I wrong then? TMP has been around for at least two years, iirc. For every realm on Dwilight that complains about the effects of TMP, there is one that has barely had a warning. Luria Nova began getting them, and they suffered some minor penalties from it, and then they sent troops to assist PeL and hey presto, problem solved. In the specific case of Madina/Aurvandil, how is TMP to be blamed for the stalemate in the war? In the specific case of Fissoa, there are plenty of hordes to be fought for those who are willing to leave their borders. In the specific case of D'Hara, all they need to do to find battle is sail to the east.
If they choose to stay holed up, then that's their choice, but then they don't get to complain about not finding enough battles. If they want to persist in their old ways, then by all means they should do so. Meanwhile, others will adapt to the situation and figure out how to deal with it IC, rather than come here and complain that they're being treated unfairly. If you act like a child, I'll treat you as one. The code is the same for everyone, as are the effects. If you can't adapt, you'll perish, just as nature intended.
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It's purpose was to increase the number of wars fought. It isn't doing that. Therefore, TMP is not doing the job it was implemented for. It isn't even a matter of like or dislike. It's a matter of something that isn't doing what it was coded in to do, and therefore should not be used for that purpose.
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If you act like a child, I'll treat you as one. The code is the same for everyone, as are the effects. If you can't adapt, you'll perish, just as nature intended.
Do you think it's childish to discuss game mechanics? isn't that how BM is intended?
And again, please if you think tmp should stay, give me an example of how it improves battles, don't repeat that it should, tell me it did.
The reason why some of us complain now(atleast for me) is because we give tmp a chance before we have an opinion, features like this should be tested for a long time.
I believe tmp did not cause more wars and or battles untill now, i'd even say less.
I've also not heard ANY example of how it DID improve wars and battles apart from the Melhed example, which shouldn't be called a war anyway(no battles are fought, enemy was already defeated).
It also did perhaps motivate realms to hunt rogues away from home, but religious believes or even startegic reasoning could also have caused that.
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and btw guys, a good way around tmp is to TO a rogue region every week.
Nonononono. We got hit by TMP precisely because we TOed a rogue region, meaning we didn't get any fights for a few more days than we otherwise owuld have and that our realm was therefore eligeable for harsher requirements because it was larger.
TOing rogue regions won't solve your TMP problems.
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Nonononono. We got hit by TMP precisely because we TOed a rogue region, meaning we didn't get any fights for a few more days than we otherwise owuld have and that our realm was therefore eligeable for harsher requirements because it was larger.
TOing rogue regions won't solve your TMP problems.
it worked in Madina though, there where no battles but one TO, the day after there was no more tmp.
Either way it was more of an example of how it could effect gameplay in a negative way.
I think its fairly lame to try and 'fool' game mechanics or find ways around it without any ig reason.
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the defense for tmp does make sense but again, do we actually need this?
I mean how far do we know tmp is positively effecting people to declare war? and what kind of war?
Does it really spark interesting wars or will it only turn realms like Melhed to join an already gang bang because its realm is falling apart due to tmp.
That is an important question I think. What kind of war is created, if any? I seem to recall wars being fuelled by misunderstandings, feelings getting hurt, insults and the like. Real hurt and mistrust was created, and those are the kind of wars that are the most fun.
I'm not much for the ones where we just attack someone because we have to. So sometimes we need to let the coming war brew a little. Give some space for some misunderstandings to take place.
The players want war so I don't think we (for the most part) need a mechanism to encourage it. It will happen sooner or later anyways.
Sure there have been times when a few leaders have needed to be bolted but those times are relatively few, and insolated to some islands.
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That is an important question I think. What kind of war is created, if any? I seem to recall wars being fuelled by misunderstandings, feelings getting hurt, insults and the like. Real hurt and mistrust was created, and those are the kind of wars that are the most fun.
I'm not much for the ones where we just attack someone because we have to. So sometimes we need to let the coming war brew a little. Give some space for some misunderstandings to take place.
The players want war so I don't think we (for the most part) need a mechanism to encourage it. It will happen sooner or later anyways.
Sure there have been times when a few leaders have needed to be bolted but those times are relatively few, and insolated to some islands.
I just couldn't agree more. Also I'll simply pose an OOC question to the realm, seeing that Shenron and me seem to be the only people from Fissoa voicing their thoughts. I don't want to be defending a Fissoan case if the rest of the realm disagrees.
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You should have plopped down a lot of militia or got allies involved earlier, or simply done some diplomatic hocus pocus and taken the boat like Jens did with 3,000cs to smash up their hinterlands. Or some similar combination.
The FACT is - we haven't been sitting around for a month because of TMP. We've been doing it from a lack of ideas.
We have a lack of ideas because we have a lack of sharing and speaking in the realm. Instead, we have 3-4 people who play the game privately and expect the rest of us to sit around guarding the Tower.
That is PRECISELY why Tom implemented TMP. Because he wants leadership like that in Madina to fail.
Your diplomatic "hocus pocus" would have cost us a victory. Wars are fun - being gang banged by 4 Realms, two of which are considerably larger than we are - not so much fun. Ive already been in one Realm that loved to do as you suggested. It got squished by 6 different Realms all at the same time.
No - we've been sitting around because we needed time to get Fissoa into the fight and to keep Terran/D'Hara/Barca out. NOW we are sitting around because of TMP. Their army should have arrived this week with 10-15K CS, now that will not happen.
Perhaps you should message the Grand Council (14 players) which is roughly half our noble count - they run all our decision making processes, as Doge I have to run everything through them before I can do it effectively.
Leadership in Madina has rebuilt the Realm from 9 nobles to over 30 - if you think that's a failure of Leadership, I question exactly what you think should have been done differently.
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my character has been sitting in soniel (a town) for a few weeks now (barring some movement out to bash some monsters) whilst the other realm has been sitting on the other side of the pond. or whatever it is.
that's not all that different from candiels and the tower.
i think the next time a map is done, there should simply not be any fortifiable choke points.
incidentally, rio hasn't had a rogue outbreak for weeks now, whether on rio land or from blighted areas. i'm wondering if rogue hasn't been turned down somehow, perhaps globally.
back in summerdale, there were quite a few rogue spawns, i think quite probably in rogue areas. can't say i've seen any in d'hara. that said, i did go pass some down in Aurvandil and did write some junk rp msg about that.
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What's wrong with a simple war of conquest with no other motive than expansion? There have been dozens of wars fought in history over nothing more than expansion. If your neighbor has more lands than you, would you not feel slightly jealous, even if they are an ally? And what is wrong with a bit of backstabbing for personal game? We are playing medieval nobles here after all. Personal gain is one of the most, if not the most motivation for war.
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my character has been sitting in soniel (a town) for a few weeks now (barring some movement out to bash some monsters) whilst the other realm has been sitting on the other side of the pond. or whatever it is.
that's not all that different from candiels and the tower.
i think the next time a map is done, there should simply not be any fortifiable choke points.
incidentally, rio hasn't had a rogue outbreak for weeks now, whether on rio land or from blighted areas. i'm wondering if rogue hasn't been turned down somehow, perhaps globally.
back in summerdale, there were quite a few rogue spawns, i think quite probably in rogue areas. can't say i've seen any in d'hara. that said, i did go pass some down in Aurvandil and did write some junk rp msg about that.
I don't think rogue spawns have been tuned down. A week ago I might have agreed, but with the recent spawns around Fissoa in mind I cannot.
Something that I find somewhat problematic, though, is the way we (must) view rogues. Monsters or Undead should be the summum of evil, whereas in reality they make good prey and are very useful to stave off TMP. It just feels ...wrong.
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What's wrong with a simple war of conquest with no other motive than expansion? There have been dozens of wars fought in history over nothing more than expansion. If your neighbor has more lands than you, would you not feel slightly jealous, even if they are an ally? And what is wrong with a bit of backstabbing for personal game? We are playing medieval nobles here after all. Personal gain is one of the most, if not the most motivation for war.
Definitely,
But it should feel like it. You need to feel the desire to expand, to backstab, to gain. Not like...maybe we could take that rural region there so it will look nice and round on the map...but do we have the nobles to support it? Ahh...I just don't know...but now we're hit by TMP so I guess... :p
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I don't consider the hordes to be evil, actually. Certainly not monsters, they are just mindless creatures driven by instinct. Undead are a bit higher on the evil ladder, but they are relatively weak compared to monsters. I recently proposed that advies leave undead alone and hunt just the monsters, since undead are much easier to kill and provide good training for soldiers who have no humans to kill.
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What's wrong with a simple war of conquest with no other motive than expansion? There have been dozens of wars fought in history over nothing more than expansion. If your neighbor has more lands than you, would you not feel slightly jealous, even if they are an ally? And what is wrong with a bit of backstabbing for personal game? We are playing medieval nobles here after all. Personal gain is one of the most, if not the most motivation for war.
Best reasons for war ever.
Problem is most realms tend to jump in on those ones, and rarely on the side that opted to expand :P
1 on 1 or 2 on 2 is awesome. 5-6 on 1? . . .well, why bother starting a war if you know it's gonna result in a beat down?
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By the number of people pissed off, TMP's current code /has/ problems. I don't understand why some people are still saying it has not. It is like pissing in the other's complaints, and stating you don't give a crap about them. And a rather large number of people's complaints, btw.
Also, the Devs have already agreed there are problems, and they are looking into them. Further complaining is of no help.
How about we pass to the phase in which we try to suggest way to improve TMP's code, without making it ineffective for its original purpose (to stimulate wars)? My idea would be to remove the military-penalties from TMP, since that is what you really need for making wars, and it won't really make those affected by it any eager to have a real (and thus fun) confrontation.
So:
* Remove all Unit penalties (morale, training, etc.)
* Don't penalize recruiting troops or anything related to the capacity of a realm to wage a war.
* Keep the economic penalties.
* If the realm doesn't go to war, bring war to the realm. Cause peasant rebellions from TMP, this can come in different flavored types: a charismatic commoner prophet is starting an insulting heresy which must be destroyed, peasants no longer consider the local Lord a need to protect them from foreign threats so they decide to take over the region, commoner merchants decide instigating a rebellion to be more profitable than paying for protection taxes since they are no longer afraid, etc.
* Have people evade taxes, banditry increase and corruption flourish during peace time.
* Cause Loyalty and/or Control of provinces to lower due to more bold rebellious groups.
* Hurt those that profit more from the status quo brought by peace: the rich and powerful ones. Have the council members randomly lose h/p because of clerks' corruption scandals due to lowered discipline during peacetime. Have bandits dare to steal part of the fortunes of the rich due to same lowered discipline of the guards, maybe even steal banks. Actually I think this is the most important point, but it will need some thinking to translate it to in-game logic.
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I agree Pierre, and I know the Dev's are working on making things improved.
We should see wars also provide aid to those fighting wars:
- Reduce loyalty/morale/control loss for Realms at war
- Reduce tax negatives for Realms at war
- Provide more "gains" for actions like looting, scavenging the battle field - I think small amounts of gold to the war chest or sponsor is a great idea when those actions are done
- Provide unit perks/gains that are gained and maintained by constant battle / warfare against PC Realms, but lost during peace time
Make it easier for Realms who ARE at war to stay that way - fighting a long extended war can lead to lack of regional care. Reduce the negatives experienced by regions (through a small bonus) that occurs during battles and wars. They should be small, but have long lasting effects and be cumulative (length wise).
And I really think we need to add some new perks to fighting other Realms. Things to make players want to fight their enemies AND ways to reward them for doing so.
We've tried the beat people with a stick - lets get them some incentives and bonuses they get for actually DOING those things. People love to do things for rewards - lets give them some rewards for doing what we want.
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By the number of people pissed off, TMP's current code /has/ problems. I don't understand why some people are still saying it has not. It is like pissing in the other's complaints, and stating you don't give a crap about them. And a rather large number of people's complaints, btw.
Also, the Devs have already agreed there are problems, and they are looking into them. Further complaining is of no help.
How about we pass to the phase in which we try to suggest way to improve TMP's code, without making it ineffective for its original purpose (to stimulate wars)? My idea would be to remove the military-penalties from TMP, since that is what you really need for making wars, and it won't really make those affected by it any eager to have a real (and thus fun) confrontation.
So:
* Remove all Unit penalties (morale, training, etc.)
* Don't penalize recruiting troops or anything related to the capacity of a realm to wage a war.
* Keep the economic penalties.
* If the realm doesn't go to war, bring war to the realm. Cause peasant rebellions from TMP, this can come in different flavored types: a charismatic commoner prophet is starting an insulting heresy which must be destroyed, peasants no longer consider the local Lord a need to protect them from foreign threats so they decide to take over the region, commoner merchants decide instigating a rebellion to be more profitable than paying for protection taxes since they are no longer afraid, etc.
* Have people evade taxes, banditry increase and corruption flourish during peace time.
* Cause Loyalty and/or Control of provinces to lower due to more bold rebellious groups.
* Hurt those that profit more from the status quo brought by peace: the rich and powerful ones. Have the council members randomly lose h/p because of clerks' corruption scandals due to lowered discipline during peacetime. Have bandits dare to steal part of the fortunes of the rich due to same lowered discipline of the guards, maybe even steal banks. Actually I think this is the most important point, but it will need some thinking to translate it to in-game logic.
I agree on most what you said but...
again...
First we need to ask if it really does or would increase fun wars and battles.
I think not.
if it does, we should defiantly keep it.
we are humans, we can't just fix everything, we act like the beeings we are.
Fun wars and battles and the number in which they exist are a result of the players playing this game.
If the players are boring and prefer peace (melhed won first price i geuss :P), they will most likley not fight any wars and just stay boring.
If a whole island is ruled by only a few realms who decided together to try and reach a Continental wide peace period record (EC), those leaders should get a warning and then get bolted.
Thats the only way we should intervene in my opinion to encourage wars.
The rest is all up to us players to make things IG alot more intresting.
There many many ways, trust me.
The 'bad' side of it all is that you will damage your character/family reputation or even lose a character or two, but if that makes the future of the game more fun, i'd do it.
A few plots and even Melhed won't be a peaceful place anymore *evil grin*.
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Jens,
I am part of a realm that suffers TMP. I can tell you with 100% certainty that I was not bored before, and TMP bores me now. I forces me to play my character in an unrealistic way, contrary to all he believes in (and believe me, that doesn't mean he is a pacifist).
The problem is not that TMP is unfair, I agree that it is fair. The problem is that it breaks the game. It turns what was a RP and Strategy and Politics game into a slow version of War Islands. And I stopped playing WI after two games and a half for a reason.
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Here's a proposal, I'm not sure if it is good: Auto-loot.
It makes sense that the soldiers don't like marching around for no reason. In the middle-ages, it was very common for soldiers to pillage all lands around them. Glory and Victory could keep them, but otherwise it was common that no region would want to house moving soldiers, ever.
TMP could mean that when when a realm has been at peace for too long, troops get a random probability to auto-loot whatever region you are in. If you are in your own lands, your regions get damaged. If you leave your lands.... explain that to your neighbors. Or disband your unit, if you accept the price of an undefended land.
This would force war, without actually destroying the ability to wage war.
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Here's a proposal, I'm not sure if it is good: Auto-loot.
It makes sense that the soldiers don't like marching around for no reason. In the middle-ages, it was very common for soldiers to pillage all lands around them. Glory and Victory could keep them, but otherwise it was common that no region would want to house moving soldiers, ever.
TMP could mean that when when a realm has been at peace for too long, troops get a random probability to auto-loot whatever region you are in. If you are in your own lands, your regions get damaged. If you leave your lands.... explain that to your neighbors. Or disband your unit, if you accept the price of an undefended land.
This would force war, without actually destroying the ability to wage war.
Hey, that is not half-bad.
Let's see what the rest think.
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Sounds cool :) though it's somewhat unrealistic that they pillage and loot on top of their salary? Couldn't an incentive be that unit upkeep is free when in a 'looting' status?
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Your diplomatic "hocus pocus" would have cost us a victory. Wars are fun - being gang banged by 4 Realms, two of which are considerably larger than we are - not so much fun. Ive already been in one Realm that loved to do as you suggested. It got squished by 6 different Realms all at the same time.
No - we've been sitting around because we needed time to get Fissoa into the fight and to keep Terran/D'Hara/Barca out. NOW we are sitting around because of TMP. Their army should have arrived this week with 10-15K CS, now that will not happen.
Perhaps you should message the Grand Council (14 players) which is roughly half our noble count - they run all our decision making processes, as Doge I have to run everything through them before I can do it effectively.
Leadership in Madina has rebuilt the Realm from 9 nobles to over 30 - if you think that's a failure of Leadership, I question exactly what you think should have been done differently.
Please - you went from 9 to 30 because Caerwyn flopped and came south. You decided to give away everything we are fighting for to the Caerwyn group, meaning none of the "old realm" has anything to fight for anymore except revenge on some rebels most of us weren't even around for to know about.
First I've ever heard of the "Grand Council". All I've ever heard of is the "Emergency Powers Act" or whatever you call it. My Lord has never once informed me of any discussions going on or asked my opinion.
All I can see is that one character is Ruler, General and Marshal; that only 2 Dukes are allowed to vote, and that one of them is the Judge; and that every once in a while the realm is informed of some decision that was made.
As for your "gang bang", I doubt the armies in the north could travel so far - but that's an in-game issue and you'll never know the rest of my opinion on it because you'll never ask.
As for "costing you a victory" - well, you obviously have missed the point of everything I've said on this thread.
Enjoy your TMP. Even if the devs decided to turn it off completely, it wouldn't be in time to help you now. The rebels have plenty of rogue lands to fight in to keep TMP away, you don't, and pretty soon your armies are going to disappear and then they'll come across the straits and destroy you.
Your old-fashioned style of play has probably cost you the war.
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Am I wrong then? TMP has been around for at least two years, iirc. For every realm on Dwilight that complains about the effects of TMP, there is one that has barely had a warning. Luria Nova began getting them, and they suffered some minor penalties from it, and then they sent troops to assist PeL and hey presto, problem solved. In the specific case of Madina/Aurvandil, how is TMP to be blamed for the stalemate in the war? In the specific case of Fissoa, there are plenty of hordes to be fought for those who are willing to leave their borders. In the specific case of D'Hara, all they need to do to find battle is sail to the east.
If they choose to stay holed up, then that's their choice, but then they don't get to complain about not finding enough battles. If they want to persist in their old ways, then by all means they should do so. Meanwhile, others will adapt to the situation and figure out how to deal with it IC, rather than come here and complain that they're being treated unfairly. If you act like a child, I'll treat you as one. The code is the same for everyone, as are the effects. If you can't adapt, you'll perish, just as nature intended.
+1000
For every realm that sits and complains, another one spent their time figuring out how TMP works and what to do about it, and is doing just fine.
You think "everyone" is complaining about it. Wrong - Everyone who comes here to complain about it is complaining.
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my character has been sitting in soniel (a town) for a few weeks now (barring some movement out to bash some monsters) whilst the other realm has been sitting on the other side of the pond. or whatever it is.
that's not all that different from candiels and the tower.
i think the next time a map is done, there should simply not be any fortifiable choke points.
incidentally, rio hasn't had a rogue outbreak for weeks now, whether on rio land or from blighted areas. i'm wondering if rogue hasn't been turned down somehow, perhaps globally.
back in summerdale, there were quite a few rogue spawns, i think quite probably in rogue areas. can't say i've seen any in d'hara. that said, i did go pass some down in Aurvandil and did write some junk rp msg about that.
Actually Arcaea is happily ensuring our regions are in top shape and chasing some monsters around. We keep hearing about these northern characters that fear nothing and are unstoppable in battle, but apparently putting part of one of our armies in a choke point has cowered them into inaction. Perhaps when more important things are handled Arcaea might look north again?
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Actually Arcaea is happily ensuring our regions are in top shape and chasing some monsters around. We keep hearing about these northern characters that fear nothing and are unstoppable in battle, but apparently putting part of one of our armies in a choke point has cowered them into inaction. Perhaps when more important things are handled Arcaea might look north again?
You're more than welcome to taunt us IG but let's leave the forum to OOC-things, okay? ;)
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Hey, that is not half-bad.
Let's see what the rest think.
Tell me the difference between this and the insane region stat drops we had at first?
It's just as bad.
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Tell me the difference between this and the insane region stat drops we had at first?
It's just as bad.
You can have the army in a region that you don't mind that they loot :p and then they'll leave the rest alone.
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+1000
For every realm that sits and complains, another one spent their time figuring out how TMP works and what to do about it, and is doing just fine.
You think "everyone" is complaining about it. Wrong - Everyone who comes here to complain about it is complaining.
And what you fail to understand is that some realms are extremely favored over others when it comes to fighting rogues. There are none anywhere near D'Hara, for example, and if battles are not big enough, which they tend not to be, TMP is not staved off for long, if at all. Hell, we are talking about chasing away all the adventurers from our lands, because we never see rogues spawn. Who in their right minds would have wanted to have rogues spawn in their lands two years ago? Just thinking about it exasperates me.
Another example is Fheuv'n. It is in war. All it did was fighting, an average of a battle every two days. But when it stopped fighting a bit to takeover a rogue region, it then got hit by TMP as it was marching for war, forcing it to do a kamikaze battle it might not have otherwise done.
Furthermore, it also means that realms are way more vulnerable to bugs. Fheuv'n for example, again. When we got to Nothoi, we were gonna loot that place to the ground, as we easily defeated the defending forces. But a bug prevented us from doing so. This in return made TMP code hate us, because our battles were too small and we didn't loot enough. Now that we are in Rio lands, bugs are preventing us from looting *again*, meaning we have yet to have had any opportunities to loot in our two wars. How long 'till TMP hits us again? This is a small realm that is at war, fighting regularly, and it got the TMP notice and effects.
Some are "adapting" to it. Figuring out ways to deal with TMP doesn't mean that they are doing what would be the most fun. And it doesn't mean they are operating in the same context as others who aren't, and it certainly doesn't mean that TMP is contributing to the game experience.
As long as TMP remains so brutal, many people will complain, and rightfully so.
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And what you fail to understand is that some realms are extremely favored over others when it comes to fighting rogues. There are none anywhere near D'Hara, for example, and if battles are not big enough, which they tend not to be, TMP is not staved off for long, if at all.
Correct. And those same realms that are "favored" when it comes to having lots of rogues to fight are also unfavored when it comes to having secure borders, and fully developed regions. Astrum, for example, has loads of rogues to fight. We never get TMP warnings. But what we do get are constant rogue attacks across nearly all of our borders. So, yeah, we don't have TMP problems. But why do you think we have the biggest standing army on Dwilight, by a factor of at least two? It's because we need it to save our regions from being ravaged and driven rogue. So, yeah, we have lots of rogues to fight. But D'Hara has safe and secure borders, and the freedom to use their army to do something other than fight for their lives every day.
As long as TMP remains so brutal, many people will complain, and rightfully so.
As odd as it may sound, I agree that the effects of it are too fast to get going, can have too little warning, and build up way too fast. (I didn't know that you could get your first warning, then have penalties hit 2 days later. Way too short of a warning.) The dev team is talking about ways to modify it, and adapt it to make it better do what it's supposed to do.
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Correct. And those same realms that are "favored" when it comes to having lots of rogues to fight are also unfavored when it comes to having secure borders, and fully developed regions. Astrum, for example, has loads of rogues to fight. We never get TMP warnings. But what we do get are constant rogue attacks across nearly all of our borders. So, yeah, we don't have TMP problems. But why do you think we have the biggest standing army on Dwilight, by a factor of at least two? It's because we need it to save our regions from being ravaged and driven rogue. So, yeah, we have lots of rogues to fight. But D'Hara has safe and secure borders, and the freedom to use their army to do something other than fight for their lives every day.
Yet Astrum managed to destroy a rather powerful realm without any significant trouble, despite all of these rogues? Clearly the rogues are not as threatening as you suggest.
Therefore, Astrum has the choice to fight other human realms or not to, either not resulting in TMP issues. If they don't have enemies or don't want to risk a war, they can do so without penalty. Other realms, though, don't have this luxury. It's fight other human realms, or do nothing, and while the former might get rid of TMP, it might also not.
As odd as it may sound, I agree that the effects of it are too fast to get going, can have too little warning, and build up way too fast. (I didn't know that you could get your first warning, then have penalties hit 2 days later. Way too short of a warning.) The dev team is talking about ways to modify it, and adapt it to make it better do what it's supposed to do.
This has always been my point. I have nothing against troops that don't fight losing training, as it adds realism and opportunities for others to attack. But it has to be really, really slow, slow enough so that training your troops regularly can counter it, so that people don't do what they would otherwise consider to be stupid things (like kamikazing against a city or chasing away advies) as they panic before it. There's nothing exciting about a war that was declared because of game mechanics and which is fought in ways dictated by game mechanics. May as well vote for bots to rule us when that happens.
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Yet Astrum managed to destroy a rather powerful realm without any significant trouble, despite all of these rogues? Clearly the rogues are not as threatening as you suggest.
Therefore, Astrum has the choice to fight other human realms or not to, either not resulting in TMP issues. If they don't have enemies or don't want to risk a war, they can do so without penalty. Other realms, though, don't have this luxury. It's fight other human realms, or do nothing, and while the former might get rid of TMP, it might also not.
Astrum didn't so much win the war as Caerwyn lost it, I'd say. The crippling famine was the major factor.
And as for luxury... I wouldn't call it a luxury. The way it stands now, TMP is gonna get majorly nerfed. But, the rogues won't be. And then you will have the luxury of not having 10,000 CS threatening your borders at all times, while Astrum still has to remain on their toes.
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Yes, and that's the risk you run with having a very large border with rogue lands. And since you were not a part of Astrum, you would not know how close we came to having our cities half starved from rogues coming over the borders, Chenier. Not that I disagree with you, without a civilized realm on its borders, Astrum is always going to be nearly overstretched defending its borders.
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In case this was missed:
Tom concurs that TMP is not working as currently implemented, and started a discussion within the dev team on something to accomplish the same goal that will work better.
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In case this was missed:
Tom concurs that TMP is not working as currently implemented, and started a discussion within the dev team on something to accomplish the same goal that will work better.
Now. . . if we had some patience. :P
Heck I'm happy with the Estate Changes :D Can't wait till they go to testing.
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Tell me the difference between this and the insane region stat drops we had at first?
It's just as bad.
You would only get stats drop if you choose not to wage war and keep your defending army. Other choices would be to actually wage war, which you would remain able to do so without having to wait for a big battle to show up, thus avoiding IVF's problem, or to disband your army and stockpile gold, which I guess would be D'Hara's choice.
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Note: We are currently discussing TMP internally. There may be changes.
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And what you fail to understand is that some realms are extremely favored over others when it comes to fighting rogues. There are none anywhere near D'Hara, for example,
Sorry, but that's just not true. If you were to head east, you'd find plenty of them very quickly. You're just used to thinking of the Lighthouse as being a dead end.
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Sorry, but that's just not true. If you were to head east, you'd find plenty of them very quickly. You're just used to thinking of the Lighthouse as being a dead end.
Just like the Palm Sea, the Desert of Silhouettes probably attracts rogues all the time.
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Sorry, but that's just not true. If you were to head east, you'd find plenty of them very quickly. You're just used to thinking of the Lighthouse as being a dead end.
Paisly is the capital. It's a rather long way to the lighthouse from Paisly. These intra-realm sea routes aren't particularly short, you know? And on the rare occasions I do see scout reports from Sallowtown, Sallowwild, and the Desert, rogue forces are rather small if there are any at all.
Further, a few small battles with the rogues isn't enough to stave it off significantly. One needs huge battles. However, one can't muster huge battles if TMP halves your units' training by the time you reach a fight.
On BT, I haven't seen much rogues either, and even if we went out of our way to fight some in rogue regions, it still wasn't enough, in combination with actual battles against humans, to stave off TMP. Not every realm has access to a large body of rogues to entertain them like Astrum does. Being very large indeed allows them to border many wild lands, and gives them a sizable mobile force. Many smaller realms have a much smaller % of their fewer nobles that are actually part of the mobile army, and aren't traders, courtiers, priests, and/or ambassadors.
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mate... d'hara has been sitting around for a month doing squat. it doesn't take that long to get to the lighthouse really.
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mate... d'hara has been sitting around for a month doing squat. it doesn't take that long to get to the lighthouse really.
it would take you 52 hours to cover the total distance of 643 miles, assuming no travel delays.
That's for the lighthouse only. Then you got another sea route, 'cause the Lighthouse rarely has anything in it. Then the fun roads in rogue regions... Sallowtown to Desert of Silouhettes is incredibly long, if I remember correctly.
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"Oh no, long travel times, what ever will we do now? I know, let's just suffer more TMP!"
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it's still less than 30 days though, isn't it. i know about long travel, madina->paisly was long.
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"Oh no, long travel times, what ever will we do now? I know, let's just suffer more TMP!"
The point is that it is so far away, that even if D'Hara sent all of her mobile forces continuously to fight these rogues, it wouldn't make TMP go away as battles would be too far apart from each other.
Thank you for your constructive comments, though.
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What's your alternative? Zero battles a week instead of one or two? That doesn't seem to be working out well for you at the moment. You could rotate armies, so you have a more continuous presence to fight rogues. You could move capitals, to shorten your travel times. Adapt or perish.
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What's your alternative? Zero battles a week instead of one or two? That doesn't seem to be working out well for you at the moment. You could rotate armies, so you have a more continuous presence to fight rogues. You could move capitals, to shorten your travel times. Adapt or perish.
It seems you ignored Tom and Indirik's comments when they said there were problems with TMP and are discussing it.
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True... but we don't know when it will be changed, or how. Maybe it will just make things worse. Anticipation is the key to ultimate victory!
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What's your alternative? Zero battles a week instead of one or two? That doesn't seem to be working out well for you at the moment. You could rotate armies, so you have a more continuous presence to fight rogues. You could move capitals, to shorten your travel times. Adapt or perish.
So BM should not be about PvP anymore, it should be about figuring out the most optimal way to fight the few scattered rogues about here and there?
Rotating armies = Small army even smaller. Tiny armies fighting = no meaningful effect at all on TMP.
Try again.
D'Hara isn't bothering much to go fight rogues abroad, because it'd be a tonload of trouble and wouldn't change !@#$.
There are so many variables that TMP doesn't take into consideration, it's not even funny. And yet you speak as if all realms were identical, and that if some realms have more trouble with TMP with others its because they suck. This is not only exceedingly arrogant, it's stupid. Not all realms are identical. Not all realms focus on the same aspects of BM. Not all realms have 95% of their mobiles part of the mobile army. Not all realms have massive rogue spawns at their border.
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What kind of PvP has D'Hara done in the last year? If you don't have realms to fight, then go find some hordes. And scattered rogues here and there? There's around 10,000 CS on PeLs border at all times.
It's simple, really. Until TMP is tweaked, you're stuck with it the way it is. Sounds to me you should be exploring every possible way to reduce its effect, since it's !@#$ing your !@#$ up rather badly from what I read here. Not all realms are identical, but TMP is identical for all of them. You've known about it for ages. You've known for ages that if you don't fight battles, you're gonna get warned.
I'm not privy to D'Hara's inner workings, but I know they haven't fought other realms in forever. So, that leaves you with little choice besides fighting rogues. And you're telling me that you're not wanting to do that either. Well, sorry to have to inform you that you brought it upon yourself. And then I'm the arrogant one? Crudely spoken, what /you/ want to do in BM doesn't matter as much as you think it does. If Tom says 'fight more' then you should fight more.
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On a "by the by" note:
Jens just offered to your ruler (Marche) to basically join D'Hara and go off and fix your TMP problem, and was told to "get lost" and that he'd "done enough damage".
Why?
Because he happened to pass through D'Hara on his way to passing through Barca on his way to attacking Auvrendil from the rear.
Auvrendil - a realm two realms away, with zero allies, and absolutely no threat to you. Still scratching my head about how this messes up your diplomacy, but whatever.
So, even after someone says, "I'll come join your realm, use my own troops and go fix your TMP problem fighting rogues" - Your realm isn't interested.
So quit the effing whining already.
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Auvrendil - a realm two realms away, with zero allies, and absolutely no threat to you. Still scratching my head about how this messes up your diplomacy, but whatever.
So quit the effing whining already.
Do you even pay attention to the diplomacy aspect of this game?
Barca supports Aurvandil.
Barca is part of the triumverate of D'Hara and Terran.
Barca wants to fight on the side of Aurvandil, but can't because D'Hara and Terran want the food from Madina.
You violated Barcan lands to attack their friends in Aurvandil, pissing off Barca which is now trying even harder to get Terran and D'Hara to support Aurvandil.
Then you pissed off D'Hara by doing the same thing to their lands, which they could put off about Barca, but not themselves (because they couldn't prove you went through their lands to start with).
Then you offer to join D'Hara, after pissing off their colony and stirring up diplomatic troubles between them and one of their major food suppliers?
. . . and you expect them to welcome you why?
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Do you even pay attention to the diplomacy aspect of this game?
No. In Game, most of us have absolutely no idea what the "diplomacy aspect of this game" is.
Everything you just told me was a complete and honest OOC surprise. I don't sit here hour after hour reading every single thread.
if you want people to know these things, you need to start roleplaying them to the general nobility
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No. In Game, most of us have absolutely no idea what the "diplomacy aspect of this game" is.
Everything you just told me was a complete and honest OOC surprise. I don't sit here hour after hour reading every single thread.
if you want people to know these things, you need to start roleplaying them to the general nobility
Besides the forums are OOC info. Some of use that are used to being heavily involved in realm politics forget that most of the players never get the chance or the access to this sort of info.
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No. In Game, most of us have absolutely no idea what the "diplomacy aspect of this game" is.
Everything you just told me was a complete and honest OOC surprise. I don't sit here hour after hour reading every single thread.
if you want people to know these things, you need to start roleplaying them to the general nobility
http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/V%C3%A9ins%C3%B8rmoot (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/V%C3%A9ins%C3%B8rmoot)
Here you go, Jens. Get caught up. This isn't private information.
Get real--you are seen as a troublemaker in Madina, Aurvrandil, and Barca. Do you honestly think that D'Hara wouldn't have heard about that?
That's like not hearing about Bowie.
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http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/V%C3%A9ins%C3%B8rmoot (http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/V%C3%A9ins%C3%B8rmoot)
Here you go, Jens. Get caught up. This isn't private information.
Get real--you are seen as a troublemaker in Madina, Aurvrandil, and Barca. Do you honestly think that D'Hara wouldn't have heard about that?
That's like not hearing about Bowie.
1) I'm not required to read the wiki. This issue is about more than me/ Jens - this is the old issue of Council members not "playing well" with the rest of their realm
EDIT: Jens has never even heard of the Véinsørmoot, and I thought it was some religion. Why would I or Jens even think to go read this on my own? (Aside from the fact that it's dull as mud and doesn't look like it pertains to Jens in any way)
2) Jens is not a troublemaker in Madina until the last couple of days. Before that he was roughly a "decorated hero" who was one of the few able to sneak into Candiels and scout, killing lots of militia and being a thorn in their side.
So what if he is a troublemaker in Aurvrandil - they are the enemy. That's a good thing.
And as for Barca, this is a recent event that I only finally understand as of about 10 minutes ago.
D'Hara didn't even know he passed through their lands on the way out. Not clear what conversations occurred that they are suddenly both informed and angry.
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I see now why Phellan and I are butting heads - he honestly thinks most of his realm understands what's going on around them, and I honestly didn't understand that he didn't know how clueless we all are.
Council members, your players are not required to read the wiki, nor are they required to educate themselves via OOC methods like IRC or the Forums. Nor should they be expected to sit around for a month doing nothing because you are engaged in some diplomacy you won't tell them about.
If you don't want them wandering around messing up your diplomacy, or getting bored and leaving, you need to keep them up-to-date with as much as you can. It's for their fun and ultimately your own.
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1) I'm not required to read the wiki. This issue is about more than me/ Jens - this is the old issue of Council members not "playing well" with the rest of their realm
EDIT: Jens has never even heard of the Véinsørmoot, and I thought it was some religion. Why would I or Jens even think to go read this on my own? (Aside from the fact that it's dull as mud and doesn't look like it pertains to Jens in any way)
2) Jens is not a troublemaker in Madina until the last couple of days. Before that he was roughly a "decorated hero" who was one of the few able to sneak into Candiels and scout, killing lots of militia and being a thorn in their side.
So what if he is a troublemaker in Aurvrandil - they are the enemy. That's a good thing.
And as for Barca, this is a recent event that I only finally understand as of about 10 minutes ago.
D'Hara didn't even know he passed through their lands on the way out. Not clear what conversations occurred that they are suddenly both informed and angry.
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I see now why Phellan and I are butting heads - he honestly thinks most of his realm understands what's going on around them, and I honestly didn't understand that he didn't know how clueless we all are.
Council members, your players are not required to read the wiki, nor are they required to educate themselves via OOC methods like IRC or the Forums. Nor should they be expected to sit around for a month doing nothing because you are engaged in some diplomacy you won't tell them about.
If you don't want them wandering around messing up your diplomacy, or getting bored and leaving, you need to keep them up-to-date with as much as you can. It's for their fun and ultimately your own.
Good to see you're not egotistical at all...
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Good to see you're not egotistical at all...
what exactly is the egotistical bit?
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I'm with Jens on this one. I have never in all my time in Battlemaster seen a group of politicians as arrogant as the Maroccidental powers in the sense that they expect everyone else to know everything they're doing.
We don't.
I have no difficulty believing that people in the various realms have no idea what's going on, because I've seen how the leaders of those realms interact with other realms.
No one has any idea what the Véinsørmoot is. My Ruler character only found out because I badgered Vellos on the forum enough that he finally said something about it. Before then, Koli had never even heard of it, and neither had anyone else in Luria that I know of. Yet I kept reading on the forum that Koli had to be an idiot because he didn't know the intricacies of the Treaty of Maroccidens and how the Véinsørmoot was organized. That's not how it works, and despite the supposed centrality of the Véinsørmoot to Marocciden politics, I keep talking to people who have never heard of it IC.
I get really tired of seeing people insulted for not knowing about the Véinsørmoot.
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if you want people to know these things, you need to start roleplaying them to the general nobility
Have you ever asked? You can't get mad at people because you look dumb because you didn't know something that you never sought to know.
I'm with Jens on this one. I have never in all my time in Battlemaster seen a group of politicians as arrogant as the Maroccidental powers in the sense that they expect everyone else to know everything they're doing.
We don't.
I have no difficulty believing that people in the various realms have no idea what's going on, because I've seen how the leaders of those realms interact with other realms.
No one has any idea what the Véinsørmoot is. My Ruler character only found out because I badgered Vellos on the forum enough that he finally said something about it. Before then, Koli had never even heard of it, and neither had anyone else in Luria that I know of. Yet I kept reading on the forum that Koli had to be an idiot because he didn't know the intricacies of the Treaty of Maroccidens and how the Véinsørmoot was organized. That's not how it works, and despite the supposed centrality of the Véinsørmoot to Marocciden politics, I keep talking to people who have never heard of it IC.
I get really tired of seeing people insulted for not knowing about the Véinsørmoot.
Why would anyone in Luria know about it? It doesn't effect or concern them hardly at all. The 'Moot deals primarily with internal issues between Terran, D'Hara and Barca and all anyone outside of the Maroccidens reallys needs to know about the Véinsørmoot is that is basically just the name of Terran, D'Hara and Barca's alliance. Did you RULER character not realize that Terran, D'Hara and Barca were allied? Cause if not, then yes he was dumb a ruler should know these things and anyone can see the diplomacy page.
I have no idea what the Lurians call their alliance (I guess just Lurian Empire?) but I don't need to. Nor do I get upset when people talk about it and I don't exactly have the inside scoop on it.
I see more people getting upset because they don't understand exactly how the 'Moot operates or works than I do anyone getting mad at others for not knowing about it. On the contrary, most of us are pretty happy to explain and spread the reputation/word of the Véinsørmoot.
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Have you ever asked? You can't get mad at people because you look dumb because you didn't know something that you never sought to know.
Why would anyone in Luria know about it? It doesn't effect or concern them hardly at all. The 'Moot deals primarily with internal issues between Terran, D'Hara and Barca and all anyone outside of the Maroccidens reallys needs to know about the Véinsørmoot is that is basically just the name of Terran, D'Hara and Barca's alliance. Did you RULER character not realize that Terran, D'Hara and Barca were allied? Cause if not, then yes he was dumb a ruler should know these things and anyone can see the diplomacy page.
I have no idea what the Lurians call their alliance (I guess just Lurian Empire?) but I don't need to. Nor do I get upset when people talk about it and I don't exactly have the inside scoop on it.
I see more people getting upset because they don't understand exactly how the 'Moot operates or works than I do anyone getting mad at others for not knowing about it. On the contrary, most of us are pretty happy to explain and spread the reputation/word of the Véinsørmoot.
In game we don't care. We do get tired of people within the Moot expecting that somehow everyone DOES know about it and how it functions though, and yes that spills over into IG scenarios. Case in point how would our characters even KNOW to ask if such a thing exists, its not like every diplomatic alliance in the game produces a special council to oversee it. The important part of Bedwyr's post was this
I'm with Jens on this one. I have never in all my time in Battlemaster seen a group of politicians as arrogant as the Maroccidental powers in the sense that they expect everyone else to know everything they're doing.
We don't.
Its not a case of us not knowing, we don't generally know all the workings of the SA realms or alliances either. What does irritate is the expectation from certain elements within the Moot that for some reason we DO all know about it, its functions and its agreements.
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Have you ever asked? You can't get mad at people because you look dumb because you didn't know something that you never sought to know.
If the Ruler or somebody else didn't make it clear, how would a random knight even know to ask? Barca isn't allied to Aurvandil, you know.
Why would anyone in Luria know about it? It doesn't effect or concern them hardly at all. The 'Moot deals primarily with internal issues between Terran, D'Hara and Barca and all anyone outside of the Maroccidens reallys needs to know about the Véinsørmoot is that is basically just the name of Terran, D'Hara and Barca's alliance. Did you RULER character not realize that Terran, D'Hara and Barca were allied? Cause if not, then yes he was dumb a ruler should know these things and anyone can see the diplomacy page.
That's precisely my point. And by the same logic, a random Madinan knight would neither know nor think to ask, because there are no relations higher than Peace between Aurvandil and Barca or any other member of the 'Moot.
I have no idea what the Lurians call their alliance (I guess just Lurian Empire?) but I don't need to. Nor do I get upset when people talk about it and I don't exactly have the inside scoop on it.
People aren't upset about not knowing. People are upset because they're getting insulted for not knowing.
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Its not a case of us not knowing, we don't generally know all the workings of the SA realms or alliances either. What does irritate is the expectation from certain elements within the Moot that for some reason we DO all know about it, its functions and its agreements.
Like what? What have you been expected to know other than Terran, D'Hara and Barca are allied and generally work for each other's interests?
If the Ruler or somebody else didn't make it clear, how would a random knight even know to ask? Barca isn't allied to Aurvandil, you know.
I was addressing how he said he had no idea what the diplomacy of the area was. That just seems lazy to me. Sure, I know you won't know the ins and outs of every ruler's discussions with other rulers, etc. But it isn't hard to say, "So, what exactly are our relations with these three realms to the north of us who seem like they could have some kind of impact on this big civil war we're fighting" ya know, before you go traveling through their land on apparently some scheme to attack your enemy from behind. That just seems silly to me that anyone would think it would be okay to go try to attack someone via another realm's land and not think to maybe ask a quick question about "oh, would this be okay diplomatically?"
That's precisely my point. And by the same logic, a random Madinan knight would neither know nor think to ask, because there are no relations higher than Peace between Aurvandil and Barca or any other member of the 'Moot.
If you don't think to ask if a realm minds if you try to attack another realm through their lands you are either brand new (in which case it's excusable) or completely silly. One of the MAJOR diplomatic conflicts in this whole game is "who is allowing who to use their lands to attack someone else?"
And yes, there are no relations higher than peace because that's the reality of the situation. No Moot realm is allied with Aurvandil nor are they at war. Just as no Moot realm is allied with Madina, nor at war with them. The Moot is neutral... just as the diplomacy reflects.
People aren't upset about not knowing. People are upset because they're getting insulted for not knowing.
No one was insulted for not knowing about the Véinsørmoot. Jens was insulted for thinking he could march through other realm's territory without permission, leading a unit of troops, in order to attack another realm and then trying to act clueless as to why those realms might be upset about it. It's just dumb.
Asylon isn't allied with Astrum, but I'm not dumb enough to think that if I somehow used their lands to launch attacks on Astrum that, ya know, hey, Asylon might be upset about that.
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Like what? What have you been expected to know other than Terran, D'Hara and Barca are allied and generally work for each other's interests?
Do you even pay attention to the diplomacy aspect of this game?
Barca supports Aurvandil.
Barca is part of the triumverate of D'Hara and Terran.
Barca wants to fight on the side of Aurvandil, but can't because D'Hara and Terran want the food from Madina.
You violated Barcan lands to attack their friends in Aurvandil, pissing off Barca which is now trying even harder to get Terran and D'Hara to support Aurvandil.
Then you pissed off D'Hara by doing the same thing to their lands, which they could put off about Barca, but not themselves (because they couldn't prove you went through their lands to start with).
Then you offer to join D'Hara, after pissing off their colony and stirring up diplomatic troubles between them and one of their major food suppliers?
. . . and you expect them to welcome you why?
I was addressing how he said he had no idea what the diplomacy of the area was. That just seems lazy to me. Sure, I know you won't know the ins and outs of every ruler's discussions with other rulers, etc. But it isn't hard to say, "So, what exactly are our relations with these three realms to the north of us who seem like they could have some kind of impact on this big civil war we're fighting" ya know, before you go traveling through their land on apparently some scheme to attack your enemy from behind. That just seems silly to me that anyone would think it would be okay to go try to attack someone via another realm's land and not think to maybe ask a quick question about "oh, would this be okay diplomatically?"
Except Madina has (had?) good relations with D'hara at least because of the food sales, and from the little bits I've picked up IC I would have assumed Barca's relations with Aurvandil were considerably worse. Not to mention the little tid-bit that Jens made it through D'hara without being noticed, and has evaded his way through Candiels before to cause trouble.
No one was insulted for not knowing about the Véinsørmoot. Jens was insulted for thinking he could march through other realm's territory without permission, leading a unit of troops, in order to attack another realm and then trying to act clueless as to why those realms might be upset about it. It's just dumb.
No, actually, he was specifically insulted for not knowing about the internal dynamics of the 'Moot realms. See the above quote.
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Or, from the perspective of someone not "in the know"....
1) Madina sells food to D'Hara, for which D'Hara is always in desperate need. So, Madina and D'hara are friendly, and D'Hara might be willing to overlook a minor discretion that doesn't affect them directly and they aren't in any danger of being punished for in order to curry favor with an important food supplier locked in a civil war
2) Barca is an SA nation (I believe - working from that assumption In Game). D'Hara is not. They are obviously friendly, but not exactly joined at the hip. Why does D'Hara care if a Madinan noble passes through D'Hara on his way to Barca to do whatever the hell it is he's doing, as long as it isn't attacking Barca?
3) Aurvandil just took a townsland right on Barca's border. Aurvandil isn't SA, nor are they any sort of Ally. Perhaps Barca isn't too pleased with that? Perhaps Barca doesn't like the idea of a strong Aurvandil on their southern border. Perhaps if a Madinan were to slip through and attack Aurvandil, Barca's reaction might be more of a "Oh, gee! that's terrible! We'll tighten up our border from now on, and send an official protest" -- wink, wink, nudge, nudge.
4) Maybe the Madinan doesn't want to sit and argue the viability of traveling all that way with his Council, so since he's an infil who operates on his own anyway, he takes his men around, loots Argyl and sends back a report saying, "Look how easy. I've broken the stalemate. Send 3000cs." and all of his bored-stupid realm mates who have been guarding the Tower for a month think he's the Cat's Pajamas now.
See how STUPID it might look from someone who isn't so privileged as you as to actually know what's going on in the private diplomacy channels?
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Where the hell did you get the idea that Barca is SA?
And just because someone supplies something that someone else needs does not make them, in effect, "friendly". For an example, let's look at WWII. The U.S. provided the U.S.S.R. with huge amounts of war materiel when it needed it against Nazi Germany. They only did this because the Russians needed weapons to fight, and the rest of the Allies wanted the Russians to be able to fight the Germans so that the Germans would have to keep their forces divided into two fronts, making any amphibious landing to retake Europe easier. Did they like each other? Not one bit. Immediately after WWII the Cold War started up, and for years they were enemies.
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And just because someone supplies something that someone else needs does not make them, in effect, "friendly". For an example, let's look at WWII. The U.S. provided the U.S.S.R. with huge amounts of war materiel when it needed it against Nazi Germany. They only did this because the Russians needed weapons to fight, and the rest of the Allies wanted the Russians to be able to fight the Germans so that the Germans would have to keep their forces divided into two fronts, making any amphibious landing to retake Europe easier. Did they like each other? Not one bit. Immediately after WWII the Cold War started up, and for years they were enemies.
Which is a rather interesting analogy in this case, as while the supplying was going on the U.S. was quite willing to overlook basically everything the U.S.S.R. did.
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Where the hell did you get the idea that Barca is SA?
And just because someone supplies something that someone else needs does not make them, in effect, "friendly". For an example, let's look at WWII. The U.S. provided the U.S.S.R. with huge amounts of war materiel when it needed it against Nazi Germany. They only did this because the Russians needed weapons to fight, and the rest of the Allies wanted the Russians to be able to fight the Germans so that the Germans would have to keep their forces divided into two fronts, making any amphibious landing to retake Europe easier. Did they like each other? Not one bit. Immediately after WWII the Cold War started up, and for years they were enemies.
Don't know where I got that idea. Rather paucity of in-game info to go on, and Jens had never been to Barca before. In any case, they have separate governments and should be expected to make their own decisions on things.
"Friendly" doesn't have to mean you rent movies together. It can mean you have an understanding that is mutually beneficial.
The point you completely missed is that the "world view" I laid out is a completely reasonable one, and I don't need some jerks coming on the forums and telling me I'm stupid because I looked at all the in-game information available to me and came up with some ideas that didn't happen to match their little privately created, coffee clutch version.
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So the Veinsermoot is not a known entity to Nobles outside of the Marrocidens. And the more intricate workings of the Marrocidens are, to the outside eye, and perhaps to the inside eye as well, rather utterly mindbogglingly confusing. What's wrong with that? I see absolutely no problems with this IG, so there really shouldn't be much issues about it on the Forums. I don't mind if outsiders don't know about the Veinsermoot, that just makes things more fun. For an outsider, perhaps the Veinsermoot, once known, is one of those quirks of those weird Marrocidens people, which makes you happy you're not one of them.
As for Jens, he could have perhaps contacted higher ups in Madina about his plan to attack via D'Hara and Barca, which would have given him some more information on the situation, presumably. He did not for reasons already explained. It just seems Jens has made, IG, an error in judgement of the situation in the Marrocidens, and is now suffering the consequences of it. It was a bold move and we've seen plenty of times in BM where such a bold move works out rather splendidly. Sadly, the nature of such bold moves means that they also don't work plenty of times.
As for a more OOC side of IG things for those interested:
D'Hara was informed of Jens by Aurvandil, who eagerly tried to ask for support once more with this infraction from Madina. Marche tried to tell it off there being the possibility that Jens travelled via Candiels, but then he travelled back through D'Haran lands. He considered Jens to be too arrogant and to be an unneeded danger. His outright disrespect in Madina (solely based onone letter Marche received from the Grand Doge and the letter he send to D'Hara) showed to him Jens is simply a liability, so he attempted to chase him away quickly with some strong words. D'Hara has issues with both Aurvandil and Madina, and buys Food from both of them at the same time. While D'Hara's Lords favour Aurvandil more, Marche favours Madina more. Jens' attacks has, in his eyes, made Barca even more troublesome (As the Suffete seems to lean towards Aurvandil) and, more importantly, decreased the support inside D'Hara for any possible attempt to aid Madina. If it ever comes that far that is, as Marche wishes to ensure D'Hara will get enough Food from Madina alone (As Aurvandil would fall away as a food source) and has protection from others against Luria Nova and Pian and Luries first (Since Port Nebel made him dead-scared about that), though I don't think there will be much issues with the latter once the former is accomplished, assuming D'Haran Lords support Marche.
Note that Hireshmont has already nicely mentioned inside the Veinsermoot that it would be absolutely fine, for example, for Barca to aid Aurvandil while D'Hara would aid Madina. However, at this moment, Aurvandil still supplies a lot of Food and Marche doesn't feel he can get the support of his Lords for a War to aid Madina. And he got frustrated with Madina as the Grand Doge and him seem to be talking two miles past each other with better Trade Relations.
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Can the Dwilight tangent get split out from this thread?
I totally agree that there are realms that don't share enough information with the whole realm, but TMP wasn't meant to magically make realms share more information with the realm at large to the best of my knowledge.
Some thoughts on changing TMP: (Yeah I know some of these have probably already been mentioned. I thought Chenier had some good ideas for changes to TMP earlier in the thread.)
1. Realms should have more warning before penalties start being applied.
2. What I'd like to see is an exponential function for whether a unit's training decreases with a floor so that it wouldn't drop below a certain point. Maybe 20-25 for the floor? or at least make the % chance that training drops at that point low. That way units with high training would see decreases the fastest but units with moderate to low training wouldn't see large drops.
3. It would also be positive to have TMP effects stop for a short period whenever a new Ruler is elected or at least in cases where the Ruler is protested out of office. Would give the new government some breathing room to change things.
4. Make underground rebels troops immune/resistant to TMP effects.
5. TMP effects not applied to units in enemy territory or beyond a certain distance from the realm.
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4. Make underground rebels troops immune/resistant to TMP effects.
Wouldn't that just encourage fake rebellions?
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Yes, that one in particular is perhaps a bit easy to abuse, but I like the way of thinking.
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Wouldn't that just encourage fake rebellions?
Yeah, that one might need some more work.
Another idea: make protests against gov't members more effective if TMP is in effect so its easier to boot the ruler.
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2. What I'd like to see is an exponential function for whether a unit's training decreases with a floor so that it wouldn't drop below a certain point. Maybe 20-25 for the floor? or at least make the % chance that training drops at that point low. That way units with high training would see decreases the fastest but units with moderate to low training wouldn't see large drops.
I think part of the current problems is that the function is exponential. Exponentials work in a way that the effect is really slow at first, and then at some threshold it gets very fast. That's bad as once you passed the threshold you're pretty much screwed, but before the threshold you don't get much effect.
A power law would be much better. Power laws are scale invariant. Roughly, this means that every day will be worst than the next by a similar amount, with no set threshold.
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Actually, exponentially either gets much faster, or much slower, when moving up or down in the function. It would actually get much slower, in this case, as you lose training. Once it hits a certain point, say 20 training, it will be so slow as to effectively not be going down anymore. Leaving a unit that is still able to fight in combat, but not nearly as effective as one with 70 training.
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Actually, exponentially either gets much faster, or much slower, when moving up or down in the function. It would actually get much slower, in this case, as you lose training. Once it hits a certain point, say 20 training, it will be so slow as to effectively not be going down anymore. Leaving a unit that is still able to fight in combat, but not nearly as effective as one with 70 training.
You mean something like this:
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=graph+0.8%2F%28e^%28%28x-10%29%2F2%29%2B1%29%2B.2%2C+x+from+0+to+30+y+from+0+to+1
With x being days and y being training? It could work, but it still clearly has a threshold after which it goes down.
A power law would be like this:
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=graph+0.4*%28%281-.01*x^2%29%2F%281%2B.01*x^2%29%29%2B.6%2C+x+from+0+to+30+y+from+0+to+2
This one starts having an an effect quicker, and the effect is small but noticeable. It doesn't speed up very much. After a long time, you just reach the floor.
(Note: copy the full link to see, I'm not sure how to force the parse to recognize it)
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This:
[url=http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=graph+0.8%2F%28e^%28%28x-10%29%2F2%29%2B1%29%2B.2%2C+x+from+0+to+30+y+from+0+to+1]Equation 1[/url]
[url=http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=graph+0.4*%28%281-.01*x^2%29%2F%281%2B.01*x^2%29%29%2B.6%2C+x+from+0+to+30+y+from+0+to+2]Equation 2[/url]
Produces this:
Equation 1 (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=graph+0.8%2F%28e^%28%28x-10%29%2F2%29%2B1%29%2B.2%2C+x+from+0+to+30+y+from+0+to+1)
Equation 2 (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=graph+0.4*%28%281-.01*x^2%29%2F%281%2B.01*x^2%29%29%2B.6%2C+x+from+0+to+30+y+from+0+to+2)
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Thanks!
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Another idea: make protests against gov't members more effective if TMP is in effect so its easier to boot the ruler.
I really, really like this.
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Don't know where I got that idea. Rather paucity of in-game info to go on, and Jens had never been to Barca before. In any case, they have separate governments and should be expected to make their own decisions on things.
"Friendly" doesn't have to mean you rent movies together. It can mean you have an understanding that is mutually beneficial.
The point you completely missed is that the "world view" I laid out is a completely reasonable one, and I don't need some jerks coming on the forums and telling me I'm stupid because I looked at all the in-game information available to me and came up with some ideas that didn't happen to match their little privately created, coffee clutch version.
Sounds to me more like you're the one being insulting and are pissed off because you made assumptions that were wrong and screwed up. Furthermore, from what I can tell you didn't even make an attempt to ask anyone who might actually know the reality of the situation for your own clarification. You can get mad all you want because you took SOME (obviously not all) of the in-game information available to you and judged wrong, but in the end its your own fault not anyone else's.