Modifying TMP Training Reductions

[De-Legro]

No. In Game, most of us have absolutely no idea what the "diplomacy aspect of this game" is.

Everything you just told me was a complete and honest OOC surprise. I don't sit here hour after hour reading every single thread.

if you want people to know these things, you need to start roleplaying them to the general nobility

Besides the forums are OOC info. Some of use that are used to being heavily involved in realm politics forget that most of the players never get the chance or the access to this sort of info.

[egamma]

No. In Game, most of us have absolutely no idea what the "diplomacy aspect of this game" is.

Everything you just told me was a complete and honest OOC surprise. I don't sit here hour after hour reading every single thread.

if you want people to know these things, you need to start roleplaying them to the general nobility

http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/V%C3%A9ins%C3%B8rmoot

Here you go, Jens. Get caught up. This isn't private information.

Get real--you are seen as a troublemaker in Madina, Aurvrandil, and Barca. Do you honestly think that D'Hara wouldn't have heard about that?

That's like not hearing about Bowie.

[Jens Namtrah]

http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/V%C3%A9ins%C3%B8rmoot

Here you go, Jens. Get caught up. This isn't private information.

Get real--you are seen as a troublemaker in Madina, Aurvrandil, and Barca. Do you honestly think that D'Hara wouldn't have heard about that?

That's like not hearing about Bowie.

1) I'm not required to read the wiki. This issue is about more than me/ Jens - this is the old issue of Council members not "playing well" with the rest of their realm

EDIT: Jens has never even heard of the Véinsørmoot, and I thought it was some religion. Why would I or Jens even think to go read this on my own? (Aside from the fact that it's dull as mud and doesn't look like it pertains to Jens in any way)

2) Jens is not a troublemaker in Madina until the last couple of days. Before that he was roughly a "decorated hero" who was one of the few able to sneak into Candiels and scout, killing lots of militia and being a thorn in their side.

So what if he is a troublemaker in Aurvrandil - they are the enemy. That's a good thing.

And as for Barca, this is a recent event that I only finally understand as of about 10 minutes ago.

D'Hara didn't even know he passed through their lands on the way out. Not clear what conversations occurred that they are suddenly both informed and angry.

---

I see now why Phellan and I are butting heads - he honestly thinks most of his realm understands what's going on around them, and I honestly didn't understand that he didn't know how clueless we all are.


Council members, your players are not required to read the wiki, nor are they required to educate themselves via OOC methods like IRC or the Forums. Nor should they be expected to sit around for a month doing nothing because you are engaged in some diplomacy you won't tell them about.

If you don't want them wandering around messing up your diplomacy, or getting bored and leaving, you need to keep them up-to-date with as much as you can. It's for their fun and ultimately your own.

[Gustav Kuriga]

1) I'm not required to read the wiki. This issue is about more than me/ Jens - this is the old issue of Council members not "playing well" with the rest of their realm

EDIT: Jens has never even heard of the Véinsørmoot, and I thought it was some religion. Why would I or Jens even think to go read this on my own? (Aside from the fact that it's dull as mud and doesn't look like it pertains to Jens in any way)

2) Jens is not a troublemaker in Madina until the last couple of days. Before that he was roughly a "decorated hero" who was one of the few able to sneak into Candiels and scout, killing lots of militia and being a thorn in their side.

So what if he is a troublemaker in Aurvrandil - they are the enemy. That's a good thing.

And as for Barca, this is a recent event that I only finally understand as of about 10 minutes ago.

D'Hara didn't even know he passed through their lands on the way out. Not clear what conversations occurred that they are suddenly both informed and angry.

---

I see now why Phellan and I are butting heads - he honestly thinks most of his realm understands what's going on around them, and I honestly didn't understand that he didn't know how clueless we all are.


Council members, your players are not required to read the wiki, nor are they required to educate themselves via OOC methods like IRC or the Forums. Nor should they be expected to sit around for a month doing nothing because you are engaged in some diplomacy you won't tell them about.

If you don't want them wandering around messing up your diplomacy, or getting bored and leaving, you need to keep them up-to-date with as much as you can. It's for their fun and ultimately your own.

Good to see you're not egotistical at all...

[Jens Namtrah]

Good to see you're not egotistical at all...

what exactly is the egotistical bit?

[Bedwyr]

I'm with Jens on this one.  I have never in all my time in Battlemaster seen a group of politicians as arrogant as the Maroccidental powers in the sense that they expect everyone else to know everything they're doing.

We don't.

I have no difficulty believing that people in the various realms have no idea what's going on, because I've seen how the leaders of those realms interact with other realms.

No one has any idea what the Véinsørmoot is.  My Ruler character only found out because I badgered Vellos on the forum enough that he finally said something about it.  Before then, Koli had never even heard of it, and neither had anyone else in Luria that I know of.  Yet I kept reading on the forum that Koli had to be an idiot because he didn't know the intricacies of the Treaty of Maroccidens and how the Véinsørmoot was organized.  That's not how it works, and despite the supposed centrality of the Véinsørmoot to Marocciden politics, I keep talking to people who have never heard of it IC.

I get really tired of seeing people insulted for not knowing about the Véinsørmoot.

[Perth]

if you want people to know these things, you need to start roleplaying them to the general nobility

Have you ever asked? You can't get mad at people because you look dumb because you didn't know something that you never sought to know.

I'm with Jens on this one.  I have never in all my time in Battlemaster seen a group of politicians as arrogant as the Maroccidental powers in the sense that they expect everyone else to know everything they're doing.

We don't.

I have no difficulty believing that people in the various realms have no idea what's going on, because I've seen how the leaders of those realms interact with other realms.

No one has any idea what the Véinsørmoot is.  My Ruler character only found out because I badgered Vellos on the forum enough that he finally said something about it.  Before then, Koli had never even heard of it, and neither had anyone else in Luria that I know of.  Yet I kept reading on the forum that Koli had to be an idiot because he didn't know the intricacies of the Treaty of Maroccidens and how the Véinsørmoot was organized.  That's not how it works, and despite the supposed centrality of the Véinsørmoot to Marocciden politics, I keep talking to people who have never heard of it IC.

I get really tired of seeing people insulted for not knowing about the Véinsørmoot.

Why would anyone in Luria know about it? It doesn't effect or concern them hardly at all. The 'Moot deals primarily with internal issues between Terran, D'Hara and Barca and all anyone outside of the Maroccidens reallys needs to know about the Véinsørmoot is that is basically just the name of Terran, D'Hara and Barca's alliance. Did you RULER character not realize that Terran, D'Hara and Barca were allied? Cause if not, then yes he was dumb a ruler should know these things and anyone can see the diplomacy page.

I have no idea what the Lurians call their alliance (I guess just Lurian Empire?) but I don't need to. Nor do I get upset when people talk about it and I don't exactly have the inside scoop on it.

I see more people getting upset because they don't understand exactly how the 'Moot operates or works than I do anyone getting mad at others for not knowing about it. On the contrary, most of us are pretty happy to explain and spread the reputation/word of the Véinsørmoot.

[De-Legro]

Have you ever asked? You can't get mad at people because you look dumb because you didn't know something that you never sought to know.

Why would anyone in Luria know about it? It doesn't effect or concern them hardly at all. The 'Moot deals primarily with internal issues between Terran, D'Hara and Barca and all anyone outside of the Maroccidens reallys needs to know about the Véinsørmoot is that is basically just the name of Terran, D'Hara and Barca's alliance. Did you RULER character not realize that Terran, D'Hara and Barca were allied? Cause if not, then yes he was dumb a ruler should know these things and anyone can see the diplomacy page.

I have no idea what the Lurians call their alliance (I guess just Lurian Empire?) but I don't need to. Nor do I get upset when people talk about it and I don't exactly have the inside scoop on it.

I see more people getting upset because they don't understand exactly how the 'Moot operates or works than I do anyone getting mad at others for not knowing about it. On the contrary, most of us are pretty happy to explain and spread the reputation/word of the Véinsørmoot.

In game we don't care. We do get tired of people within the Moot expecting that somehow everyone DOES know about it and how it functions though, and yes that spills over into IG scenarios. Case in point how would our characters even KNOW to ask if such a thing exists, its not like every diplomatic alliance in the game produces a special council to oversee it. The important part of Bedwyr's post was this

I'm with Jens on this one.  I have never in all my time in Battlemaster seen a group of politicians as arrogant as the Maroccidental powers in the sense that they expect everyone else to know everything they're doing.

We don't.

Its not a case of us not knowing, we don't generally know all the workings of the SA realms or alliances either. What does irritate is the expectation from certain elements within the Moot that for some reason we DO all know about it, its functions and its agreements.

[Bedwyr]

Have you ever asked? You can't get mad at people because you look dumb because you didn't know something that you never sought to know.

If the Ruler or somebody else didn't make it clear, how would a random knight even know to ask?  Barca isn't allied to Aurvandil, you know.

Why would anyone in Luria know about it? It doesn't effect or concern them hardly at all. The 'Moot deals primarily with internal issues between Terran, D'Hara and Barca and all anyone outside of the Maroccidens reallys needs to know about the Véinsørmoot is that is basically just the name of Terran, D'Hara and Barca's alliance. Did you RULER character not realize that Terran, D'Hara and Barca were allied? Cause if not, then yes he was dumb a ruler should know these things and anyone can see the diplomacy page.

That's precisely my point.  And by the same logic, a random Madinan knight would neither know nor think to ask, because there are no relations higher than Peace between Aurvandil and Barca or any other member of the 'Moot.

I have no idea what the Lurians call their alliance (I guess just Lurian Empire?) but I don't need to. Nor do I get upset when people talk about it and I don't exactly have the inside scoop on it.

People aren't upset about not knowing.  People are upset because they're getting insulted for not knowing.

[Perth]

Its not a case of us not knowing, we don't generally know all the workings of the SA realms or alliances either. What does irritate is the expectation from certain elements within the Moot that for some reason we DO all know about it, its functions and its agreements.

Like what? What have you been expected to know other than Terran, D'Hara and Barca are allied and generally work for each other's interests?

If the Ruler or somebody else didn't make it clear, how would a random knight even know to ask?  Barca isn't allied to Aurvandil, you know.

I was addressing how he said he had no idea what the diplomacy of the area was. That just seems lazy to me. Sure, I know you won't know the ins and outs of every ruler's discussions with other rulers, etc. But it isn't hard to say, "So, what exactly are our relations with these three realms to the north of us who seem like they could have some kind of impact on this big civil war we're fighting" ya know, before you go traveling through their land on apparently some scheme to attack your enemy from behind. That just seems silly to me that anyone would think it would be okay to go try to attack someone via another realm's land and not think to maybe ask a quick question about "oh, would this be okay diplomatically?"

That's precisely my point.  And by the same logic, a random Madinan knight would neither know nor think to ask, because there are no relations higher than Peace between Aurvandil and Barca or any other member of the 'Moot.

If you don't think to ask if a realm minds if you try to attack another realm through their lands you are either brand new (in which case it's excusable) or completely silly. One of the MAJOR diplomatic conflicts in this whole game is "who is allowing who to use their lands to attack someone else?"

And yes, there are no relations higher than peace because that's the reality of the situation. No Moot realm is allied with Aurvandil nor are they at war. Just as no Moot realm is allied with Madina, nor at war with them. The Moot is neutral... just as the diplomacy reflects.

People aren't upset about not knowing.  People are upset because they're getting insulted for not knowing.

No one was insulted for not knowing about the Véinsørmoot. Jens was insulted for thinking he could march through other realm's territory without permission, leading a unit of troops, in order to attack another realm and then trying to act clueless as to why those realms might be upset about it. It's just dumb.

Asylon isn't allied with Astrum, but I'm not dumb enough to think that if I somehow used their lands to launch attacks on Astrum that, ya know, hey, Asylon might be upset about that.

[Bedwyr]

Like what? What have you been expected to know other than Terran, D'Hara and Barca are allied and generally work for each other's interests?

Do you even pay attention to the diplomacy aspect of this game?

Barca supports Aurvandil.
Barca is part of the triumverate of D'Hara and Terran.
Barca wants to fight on the side of Aurvandil, but can't because D'Hara and Terran want the food from Madina.

You violated Barcan lands to attack their friends in Aurvandil, pissing off Barca which is now trying even harder to get Terran and D'Hara to support Aurvandil.
Then you pissed off D'Hara by doing the same thing to their lands, which they could put off about Barca, but not themselves (because they couldn't prove you went through their lands to start with).

Then you offer to join D'Hara, after pissing off their colony and stirring up diplomatic troubles between them and one of their major food suppliers?

. . . and you expect them to welcome you why?

I was addressing how he said he had no idea what the diplomacy of the area was. That just seems lazy to me. Sure, I know you won't know the ins and outs of every ruler's discussions with other rulers, etc. But it isn't hard to say, "So, what exactly are our relations with these three realms to the north of us who seem like they could have some kind of impact on this big civil war we're fighting" ya know, before you go traveling through their land on apparently some scheme to attack your enemy from behind. That just seems silly to me that anyone would think it would be okay to go try to attack someone via another realm's land and not think to maybe ask a quick question about "oh, would this be okay diplomatically?"

Except Madina has (had?) good relations with D'hara at least because of the food sales, and from the little bits I've picked up IC I would have assumed Barca's relations with Aurvandil were considerably worse.  Not to mention the little tid-bit that Jens made it through D'hara without being noticed, and has evaded his way through Candiels before to cause trouble.

No one was insulted for not knowing about the Véinsørmoot. Jens was insulted for thinking he could march through other realm's territory without permission, leading a unit of troops, in order to attack another realm and then trying to act clueless as to why those realms might be upset about it. It's just dumb.

No, actually, he was specifically insulted for not knowing about the internal dynamics of the 'Moot realms.  See the above quote.

[Jens Namtrah]

Or, from the perspective of someone not "in the know"....


1) Madina sells food to D'Hara, for which D'Hara is always in desperate need. So, Madina and D'hara are friendly, and D'Hara might be willing to overlook a minor discretion that doesn't affect them directly and they aren't in any danger of being punished for in order to curry favor with an important food supplier locked in a civil war

2) Barca is an SA nation (I believe - working from that assumption In Game). D'Hara is not. They are obviously friendly, but not exactly joined at the hip. Why does D'Hara care if a Madinan noble passes through D'Hara on his way to Barca to do whatever the hell it is he's doing, as long as it isn't attacking Barca?

3) Aurvandil just took a townsland right on Barca's border. Aurvandil isn't SA, nor are they any sort of Ally.  Perhaps Barca isn't too pleased with that? Perhaps Barca doesn't like the idea of a strong Aurvandil on their southern border. Perhaps if a Madinan were to slip through and attack Aurvandil, Barca's reaction might be more of a "Oh, gee! that's terrible! We'll tighten up our border from now on, and send an official protest" -- wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

4) Maybe the Madinan doesn't want to sit and argue the viability of traveling all that way with his Council, so since he's an infil who operates on his own anyway, he takes his men around,  loots Argyl and sends back a report saying, "Look how easy. I've broken the stalemate. Send 3000cs." and all of his bored-stupid realm mates who have been guarding the Tower for a month think he's the Cat's Pajamas now.

See how STUPID it might look from someone who isn't so privileged as you as to actually know what's going on in the private diplomacy channels?

[Gustav Kuriga]

Where the hell did you get the idea that Barca is SA?

And just because someone supplies something that someone else needs does not make them, in effect, "friendly". For an example, let's look at WWII. The U.S. provided the U.S.S.R. with huge amounts of war materiel when it needed it against Nazi Germany. They only did this because the Russians needed weapons to fight, and the rest of the Allies wanted the Russians to be able to fight the Germans so that the Germans would have to keep their forces divided into two fronts, making any amphibious landing to retake Europe easier. Did they like each other? Not one bit. Immediately after WWII the Cold War started up, and for years they were enemies.

[Bedwyr]

And just because someone supplies something that someone else needs does not make them, in effect, "friendly". For an example, let's look at WWII. The U.S. provided the U.S.S.R. with huge amounts of war materiel when it needed it against Nazi Germany. They only did this because the Russians needed weapons to fight, and the rest of the Allies wanted the Russians to be able to fight the Germans so that the Germans would have to keep their forces divided into two fronts, making any amphibious landing to retake Europe easier. Did they like each other? Not one bit. Immediately after WWII the Cold War started up, and for years they were enemies.

Which is a rather interesting analogy in this case, as while the supplying was going on the U.S. was quite willing to overlook basically everything the U.S.S.R. did.

[Jens Namtrah]

Where the hell did you get the idea that Barca is SA?

And just because someone supplies something that someone else needs does not make them, in effect, "friendly". For an example, let's look at WWII. The U.S. provided the U.S.S.R. with huge amounts of war materiel when it needed it against Nazi Germany. They only did this because the Russians needed weapons to fight, and the rest of the Allies wanted the Russians to be able to fight the Germans so that the Germans would have to keep their forces divided into two fronts, making any amphibious landing to retake Europe easier. Did they like each other? Not one bit. Immediately after WWII the Cold War started up, and for years they were enemies.

Don't know where I got that idea. Rather paucity of in-game info to go on, and Jens had never been to Barca before. In any case, they have separate governments and should be expected to make their own decisions on things.

"Friendly" doesn't have to mean you rent movies together. It can mean you have an understanding that is mutually beneficial.

The point you completely missed is that the "world view" I laid out is a completely reasonable one, and I don't need some jerks coming on the forums and telling me I'm stupid because I looked at all the in-game information available to me and came up with some ideas that didn't happen to match their little privately created, coffee clutch version.