BattleMaster Community
BattleMaster => BM General Discussion => Topic started by: Tom on April 20, 2012, 12:07:55 PM
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We've had the new trade system for a while now. I'd like to hear from trader characters if the brokering thing works out for you. Please, no general comments from region lords, this is about the brokering aspect available to trader characters only.
Does it work? Is it fun? Is it profitable?
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Its worked, easy to use in my opinion, though not profitable to me due to the food surplus everywhere in Dwilight that I have been.
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Easy and fun, not profitable.
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We'll tackle the surplus with more tweaking once the system is live on the stable islands and we have more data to look at.
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As a trader and Lord, I find its actually a lot easier for me personally to simply search for food at a low price then go around and try and sell at a profit from my own stores.
I've brokered probably five or six deals and only made 4-5 gold combined.
I think part of the reason why this might be true is that I rarely find a marketplace where I see both buy and sell offers that can be matched. The prices are different or the same, or there is simply too much to be sold or too much to be bought. In other words some areas are food rich and they are too distant from the food poor ones. This necessitates the previously outlined strategy of purchasing food and then traveling to the places that buy it.
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Trader + Lord/Steward = best possible combo. The ability to either broker deals, or to trade from your own stores is a killer. But I do think it would be nice of a trader could have a partial match on one offer per brokering.
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If I may suggest a few additional enhancements:
Partial offers would help everyone out. If a region lord puts up a buy offer of 1000 bushels, it's really frustrating when, as a trader, I can only find 900 bushels in range to broker against it. And I'm sure the region lord needing 1000 would rather have 900 than 0.
The market page should have a calculated value of all visible buy/sell offers--the total amount in sale offers, the total amount in buy offers, and the average buy/sell offer price per 100 bushels. That way region lords can decide to either put up a generous buy offer, if they badly need food, or they can put up a stingy offer if they can afford to wait. Same for sale offers--if they need quick gold, they can easily determine the going rate in the local market, or if they want more money, they can put a higher price on the food. (Note that this is based off of statistics of only the regions the lord can see--the 400 mile radius--not the statistics page).
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Partial offers would help everyone out. If a region lord puts up a buy offer of 1000 bushels, it's really frustrating when, as a trader, I can only find 900 bushels in range to broker against it. And I'm sure the region lord needing 1000 would rather have 900 than 0.
I know that I would definitely like someone to sell me 100 more than I would like 0.
Also, when selling, I would like to sell 100 more than I would like to sell 0.
In fact, that's why when I post offers, I just post a lot of 100 bushel orders. If I want 1,000 bushels, I post 10 orders for 100 each. I can't see why anyone would do any different. There doesn't seem to be much point to posting a 1,000 bushel order, unless you already have a trade partner arranged and ready to trade on that amount. There is simply no advantage to doing it.
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Hmm. Partial brokering wouldn't be too bad, but how would you propose the game handle that? i.e. how would it decide what to do when you just select a bunch of offers?
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Allow a single offer to be partial-filled, and let the trader pick which one.
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How about this variation on what you said, Rob?
If the trader only picks one buy or one sell offer, and that one is larger than the others combined, then we try to fulfill as much of that as possible. But even in this case, which opposing offer do you fulfill first? As many as possible starting from the largest?
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How about this variation on what you said, Rob?
If the trader only picks one buy or one sell offer, and that one is larger than the others combined, then we try to fulfill as much of that as possible. But even in this case, which opposing offer do you fulfill first? As many as possible starting from the largest?
Do it in whatever way makes the most money, of course.
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Greedy traders! No respect for the cost in CPU cycles. :P
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Can we get this topic back to its topic, please? Thank you.
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We've had the new trade system for a while now. I'd like to hear from trader characters if the brokering thing works out for you. Please, no general comments from region lords, this is about the brokering aspect available to trader characters only.
Does it work? Is it fun? Is it profitable?
Yes, it works. It's more fun than the previous trade system. It's not very profitable, but since you don't have to pay caravans and caravan guards anymore, it has the capability to be more profitable once supply and demand are fixed.
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As a Duke and a trader for a while, it was fun. I was very miffed though that even when a profitable trade was possible via brokering, I could not execute it because the sizes were mis-matched. This usually lead to me just buying the food from one region and then selling it back out of my own granaries. It worked, of course, but I don't think it improved my character's trading skill like brokering did.
I'll revisit the class once there does appear to be a better weighting of supply and demand.
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Coming from a Trader without any access to insider trading (ie. not a steward/lord), I'm not too sure about the new system. I've traveled all over a route of ~580 miles (with most of that added onto again by my trading distance) for quite a while since the trading changes and have yet to broker a single deal, or at least one profitable enough to recall ( >= 5g).
There are always sell offers up, but buy offers are almost as rare as sages (at least now; towards the beginning I think I recall an abundance of poorly-priced buy offers being the norm). And on top of that, supply/demand balancing makes sure that even if I do find a reasonable buy offer, I won't be able to fulfill it unless the Astroist church collapses with a concurrent declaration by the Zuma Daimons that they are, in fact, human, all under the coinciding brilliancy of the three bloodstars.
- I can't buy/broker for no gain or a loss, in the case that there's urgency for such.
- There's no visible metric for volumes transferred each day, so I can't tell if it's just a bad fishing spot or a global problem.
- The little guy no longer has the ability to have a personal store for either taking advantage of seasonal demand or holding good deals until an opportunity for sale arises.
This might all be due to production/consumption disparities while Tom and the devs are testing the system and these concerns/complaints might be invalid when things balance back out to "normal," but my experiences coming from a little less than a quarter of Dwilight have not been enjoyable so far.
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There are always sell offers up, but buy offers are almost as rare as sages
Yeah, that's the part I really don't get. Everyone seems frightened over food leaving the realm, so much that bankers hand out very detailed trade order, and nobody seems to understand that simply putting up buy orders would solve that problem completely. I've seen city lords ask for food, but not put up a buy order. I just don't get it. Why is that happening?
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In Astrum we are not managing our food at all. It is pretty much a free market. I put up buy offers, and they get filled pretty quick. We are all sitting on multiple thousands of bushels each.
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i've seen the odd 1 or 2 buy offers in my walk abouts in asylon
but the price is too low compared to the sell offers.. so no point. basically... too much food around. in dwi anyway
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Yeah, that's the part I really don't get. Everyone seems frightened over food leaving the realm, so much that bankers hand out very detailed trade order, and nobody seems to understand that simply putting up buy orders would solve that problem completely. I've seen city lords ask for food, but not put up a buy order. I just don't get it. Why is that happening?
City lords traditionally "lord it over" rurals, and by forcing the rurals to put prices out, city lords can drive down prices by only buying from the rural offering the lowest price. If City lords were to put out buy offers, then the rurals would get to choose which city to sell to, driving prices upward.
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City lords traditionally "lord it over" rurals, and by forcing the rurals to put prices out, city lords can drive down prices by only buying from the rural offering the lowest price. If City lords were to put out buy offers, then the rurals would get to choose which city to sell to, driving prices upward.
As they should, food is a rural commodity. If cities don't want to pay for it they can starve.
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Yeah, that's the part I really don't get. Everyone seems frightened over food leaving the realm, so much that bankers hand out very detailed trade order, and nobody seems to understand that simply putting up buy orders would solve that problem completely. I've seen city lords ask for food, but not put up a buy order. I just don't get it. Why is that happening?
Most of that is because of an excess of food, all buy offers are filled quickly because of how much food is floating around. The part about lords asking for food and not putting up buy offers is just people still having the old mindset of getting food given to them for nothing.
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Strangely, the statistics don't show that much of a surplus.
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Yeah, that's the part I really don't get. Everyone seems frightened over food leaving the realm, so much that bankers hand out very detailed trade order, and nobody seems to understand that simply putting up buy orders would solve that problem completely. I've seen city lords ask for food, but not put up a buy order. I just don't get it. Why is that happening?
Speaking as a Lord of two regions, one with a surplus and one with a deficit, this just comes naturally to me. My rural Lord checks his books once in a while and puts the stockpiled food on the market. It's just not a big deal if there is a delay, so the city Lord buys the food whenever he wants to. On the other hand, my city Lord checks his food once in a while and, if there is need for more, buys some immediately. There is no need to put a buy order since there is always food available right there and then, and at least I know exactly what I'm getting.
There may be more of an incentive to put up buy orders when delays proportional to distance are implemented. Then, when you are far away from your own region, it may be faster to put a buy order and hope to have it filled by a neighboring region than to buy food from where you stand. The way it is done now, putting a buy order just adds uncertainty.
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Strangely, the statistics don't show that much of a surplus.
D'Hara has over 15,000 bushels between the markets and granaries. We just get tired of putting the excess on the markets because hardly anyone is buying. And if we have that much food, how much does everyone else have?
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A LOT more. Any time I post a Buy offer, it's gone within two days, max. I know that Gelene has been buying food like crazy. And not just a little eccentric, crazy. We're talking tinfoil-hat-with-mashed-potatoes-in-your-underwear crazy.
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A LOT more. Any time I post a Buy offer, it's gone within two days, max. I know that Gelene has been buying food like crazy. And not just a little eccentric, crazy. We're talking tinfoil-hat-with-mashed-potatoes-in-your-underwear crazy.
Thats because I keep selling to you cuz no one else puts up buy offers.
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<3
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Strangely, the statistics don't show that much of a surplus.
Oh... man... you'll love this, Tom.
On Dwilight, there are 3 realms that produce less food than they consume right now, with -10%, -40%, and -43% respectively.
The other 15 realms produce more food than they consume right now, with 2 producing more than double their consumption, 5-6 producing more than 60% and the rest producing 2-42% more than they consume.
So... couple all this surplus with existing huge food stores, you get no real need for buy orders. :-\
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Oh... man... you'll love this, Tom.
On Dwilight, there are 3 realms that produce less food than they consume right now, with -10%, -40%, and -43% respectively.
The other 15 realms produce more food than they consume right now, with 2 producing more than double their consumption, 5-6 producing more than 60% and the rest producing 2-42% more than they consume.
So... couple all this surplus with existing huge food stores, you get no real need for buy orders. :-\
Maybe we should have a continent wide drought every three months or something.
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Maybe we should have a continent wide drought every three months or something.
That's what winter is for.
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That's what winter is for.
I agree.
As for buy offers: there are so many sell offers, that it doesn't seem worth it. Just need to check the markets once in a blue moon, and pick the cheapest. Plus, the less "demand" there is (or the less apparent it is), the easier it is to drive prices downwards.
I've been bankrupting my city for long enough at 50 gold per 100 bushels. Now that we have safe stockpiles and steady supplies, I fully intend to use the momentum to bring the global food prices below 30 gold per 100 bushels. Hopefully to build enormous stockpiles to then sell at a profit when some realm gets in big trouble.
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I fully intend to use the momentum to bring the global food prices below 30 gold per 100 bushels
... isn't it already? I never pay more than 20.
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... isn't it already? I never pay more than 20.
20 is common, but 30 is moreso.
And do you pay your food from local lords or from foreign realms?
We've got a trade agreement flooding our warehouses at 30 right now, but the overabundance of food will allow us to fetch agreements for steady supplies for much cheaper once that expires, for sure.
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... isn't it already? I never pay more than 20.
Indirik. Astrum's free market is just superior... both buyers and sellers are satisfied only in Astrum.
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And do you pay your food from local lords or from foreign realms?
Both. Though not many foreigners so far. Not much trader traffic, I guess.
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Very strange. According to backend data, Dwilight should in total run a food deficit of about 500 bushels per day currently (i.e. considering weather, production, etc.), even when excluding the rogue regions.
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Very strange. According to backend data, Dwilight should in total run a food deficit of about 500 bushels per day currently (i.e. considering weather, production, etc.), even when excluding the rogue regions.
That would probably be the three realms running at a deficit...
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Very strange. According to backend data, Dwilight should in total run a food deficit of about 500 bushels per day currently (i.e. considering weather, production, etc.), even when excluding the rogue regions.
Actually, if you compare -500 to the total amount of food stored on Dwilight, it's entirely reasonable that the food markets won't stabilize in a very very long time... a very, very long time.
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There does seem to be excessive amounts of food everywhere. We shall see if Pian needs food shortly. It doesn't sound like it though. They've been running in the red for a while now.
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Very strange. According to backend data, Dwilight should in total run a food deficit of about 500 bushels per day currently (i.e. considering weather, production, etc.), even when excluding the rogue regions.
There was a period where the food supply had increased significantly before it was adjusted back to something closer to the older levels. I'm thinking that created a surplus that flooded all of the markets.
500 bushels of deficit per day, for the size of Dwilight, is not very noticeable. Especially considering how everyone's granaries are full.
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I'm working on it. Among other things, I'm now actually enabling food rotting - you should be getting some messages and if there are no bugs, the effect will be re-enabled shortly. That should take care of some of the massive stockpiles.
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This !@#$ always happens when my dude's too far away to react...
Any ETA on food rot being enabled?
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The rot warnings showed up today. Shouldn't be too long.
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This !@#$ always happens when my dude's too far away to react...
Any ETA on food rot being enabled?
Try to plan for change on testing =) I built three granaries before I left for Giask from Astrum. Still have 900 extra bushels now. Total storage is at 3k though which is nice.
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The rot warnings showed up today. Shouldn't be too long.
I saw it before, I thought?
Try to plan for change on testing =) I built three granaries before I left for Giask from Astrum. Still have 900 extra bushels now. Total storage is at 3k though which is nice.
Yea, I have 3k capacity too, I think. But I don't consider that to be all that nice. They start getting expensive, after a few...
Ideally, I'd want enough storage capacity to hold a year's worth of consumption.
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how does rot affect food that's dumped on sell offers?
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i mean... you obviously cannot rot the offer itself... otherwise the trades will ever balance up.
so.. should i take it that you count everything in the market and granary... then rot away whatever "excess" (ie.. total food - total granary space) from whatever is in the granary? what if there's nothing in the granary... and market has more than granary space? rot away from food produced on the dot and make it a deficit (going hungry) if "food produced - rot" doesn't cover consumption?
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how does rot affect food that's dumped on sell offers?
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i mean... you obviously cannot rot the offer itself... otherwise the trades will ever balance up.
so.. should i take it that you count everything in the market and granary... then rot away whatever "excess" (ie.. total food - total granary space) from whatever is in the granary? what if there's nothing in the granary... and market has more than granary space? rot away from food produced on the dot and make it a deficit (going hungry) if "food produced - rot" doesn't cover consumption?
Yes, it's sorta been my assumption that food in the marketplace doesn't rot, it's sort of an exploit, but one that you can't not use. After all, I do want to sell my surplus...the fact that it will (probably) also avoid rot is just a bonus.
Any word on the granary size doubling? I think we would all rather spend our money on war instead of granaries.
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With the move away from caravans, is there any means for armies to steal another realm's food? War becomes a much less appealing tool to fix food issues without this option.
It also removes the possibility of loot-driven economies or food-based submission (go loot enemy land for food, sell it away to another realm for profits: looting tax gold only rarely gives all that much wealth).
Yes, it's sorta been my assumption that food in the marketplace doesn't rot, it's sort of an exploit, but one that you can't not use. After all, I do want to sell my surplus...the fact that it will (probably) also avoid rot is just a bonus.
Any word on the granary size doubling? I think we would all rather spend our money on war instead of granaries.
I wouldn't. :P
Or maybe I would?
I'm not quite sure anymore.
I'm just happy when I'm more wealthy than others. :P
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it's not just the money.. how many slots do the cities have? avengmil, a 10k townsland has 13 slots. used 9 slots already (2 granaries, 2 banners, 1 scout, 1 healer, 1 smith, 1 market, 1 demo). then again... avengmil doesn't need to buy all that much food, so it's somewhat moot.
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it's not just the money.. how many slots do the cities have? avengmil, a 10k townsland has 13 slots. used 9 slots already (2 granaries, 2 banners, 1 scout, 1 healer, 1 smith, 1 market, 1 demo). then again... avengmil doesn't need to buy all that much food, so it's somewhat moot.
Granaries don't use the slots of the rest of the infrastructure, do they...?
:o
The typical Dwilightian city needs more granaries than the average city does, 'cause of winter...
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Granaries don't use the slots of the rest of the infrastructure, do they...?
:o
The typical Dwilightian city needs more granaries than the average city does, 'cause of winter...
Thats only if your other regions arent storing food, have some granaries in your rurals and sell food to the cities as the cities run out. Thats the cheaper option.
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how does rot affect food that's dumped on sell offers?
This is one of the reasons rot is not yet active. I don't yet have a solution for this. The closest I have right now is applying accumulated rot to offers that return, but even that isn't as easy as it sounds.
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Any word on the granary size doubling? I think we would all rather spend our money on war instead of granaries.
Coming with the next update.
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Thats only if your other regions arent storing food, have some granaries in your rurals and sell food to the cities as the cities run out. Thats the cheaper option.
Of course the rurals have a bunch of granaries as well. But our rural/city ratio isn't as high as most realms', so just massively spreading out the total storage capacity in order to get a ton of granaries for really cheap ain't an option. Sure, of course we can spread 'em out as much as possible, but what I mean is that it won't be all that cheap.
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Granaries don't use the slots of the rest of the infrastructure, do they...?
they do count.
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they do count.
:o
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Ideally, I'd want enough storage capacity to hold a year's worth of consumption.
LOL
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Ideally, I'd want enough storage capacity to hold a year's worth of consumption.
LOL
Why "LOL"? Thanks to the new doubled warehouses, I'm almost there.
Well, an IG year, not an RL year. :P
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..eh.. ig year is meant to be rl year
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..eh.. ig year is meant to be rl year
Not in Dwilight.
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yes in every island. what you have in dwilight is merely someone's calender.
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yes in every island. what you have in dwilight is merely someone's calender.
A year, as in a cycle of seasons.
No, I didn't mean a RL year's consumption. I meant an IG season cycle's.
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it's all a bit meh. i'm not an astronomer, so i don't see why there can't be more than 1 cycle of seasons per year.
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anyway... food can rot when there's more space than food? (not necessarily a bad thing.. not unlike my kitchen either)
22 bushels of food had to be burnt because they were found to be rotten (OOC: currently no actual effect, testing, will be activated very soon).
You have 6 granaries with a capacity of 6000 bushels.
You have 2181 bushels of food stored.
1.2k sell offers on market
very curious to see how much rot there is when there are more stored/in markets than space
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2k space
458 stored
none on market
5 rotted
so.. 1% rot per day, unless over the storage limit?
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so.. 1% rot per day, unless over the storage limit?
That matches my numbers.
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1% is correct. Over storage limit, it depends on the season, but is on average twice as high.
Numbers are subject to further tweaking.
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Hm. So..
Storage: 6000
Rot: 60 bushels a day
Over storage: 5000
Rot: 100 bushels a day
So in total I will lose 160 bushels a day because of rotting and 190 a day because of consumption.
Large amount of bushels lost, considering the price of expanding my granaries.
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Hm. So..
Storage: 6000
Rot: 60 bushels a day
Over storage: 5000
Rot: 100 bushels a day
So in total I will lose 160 bushels a day because of rotting and 190 a day because of consumption.
Large amount of bushels lost, considering the price of expanding my granaries.
And you don't think that might be because you're storing 11,000 bushels in one region?
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yea okay, 11.000 bushels is a large amount.
But when I have just my stores filled, 24 percent of my consumption will be based on rotting rather than being eaten by peasants. Those 6000 bushels will last around 24 days, which is just enough to cover the consumption for the winter. Which would mean I need to store food in other regions, but isn't that against the idea of the current trade system? That way of managing food. Also, yes, I could let an amount sit in the regions and pray lords won't sell to other realms.
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Which would mean I need to store food in other regions, but isn't that against the idea of the current trade system?
No.
The current idea of managing food is not GranaryMaster. You don't have to warehouse everything yourself. The current idea is, when you need food, you put out buy orders, or purchase food from sell orders. When you have food, and need gold, you put out sell orders, or fulfill nearby buy orders.
The idea of the current trade system is, when you need something, check the markets.
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So in total I will lose 160 bushels a day because of rotting and 190 a day because of consumption.
You are trying to store two RL months worth of food, that is almost 3 seasons.
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But when I have just my stores filled, 24 percent of my consumption will be based on rotting rather than being eaten by peasants.
The math is a little more complicated, because the amount of rot falls as your stores get lower.
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The math is a little more complicated, because the amount of rot falls as your stores get lower.
Also you'll have more cats around to eat the rats.
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The math is a little more complicated, because the amount of rot falls as your stores get lower.
His capacity is 6000. 1% of 6000 is 60. His region consumes 190. Total food loss with food stores full is 190+60=250. 60/250=.24 which is about 1/4 just like what he said. Though if you meant the whole him saying it will only last 24 days, you are right about him being wrong . The correct amount time the food will last is about 31.5 days I believe though I may have made a mistake.
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His capacity is 6000. 1% of 6000 is 60. His region consumes 190. Total food loss with food stores full is 190+60=250. 60/250=.24 which is about 1/4 just like what he said. Though if you meant the whole him saying it will only last 24 days, you are right about him being wrong . The correct amount time the food will last is about 31.5 days I believe though I may have made a mistake.
The math he was looking for, however I think, was how long 11000 bushels would last with a capacity of 6000. When food stocks will equal or be under 6000, I think your formula will apply (I didn't really analyze it much). However, one must factor in a food loss that is 1% of an ever-decreasing surplus.
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The math he was looking for, however I think, was how long 11000 bushels would last with a capacity of 6000. When food stocks will equal or be under 6000, I think your formula will apply (I didn't really analyze it much). However, one must factor in a food loss that is 1% of an ever-decreasing surplus.
But I don't see how it would be a wise policy to let your surplus decrease down to zero. It seems to me that keeping your granaries full and topping them when they decrease to less than, let's say, three weeks of storage, would make sense.
I wonder how many historical medieval cities had such low stores of food. We have stories of year-long sieges, so clearly it wasn't impossible.
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But I don't see how it would be a wise policy to let your surplus decrease down to zero. It seems to me that keeping your granaries full and topping them when they decrease to less than, let's say, three weeks of storage, would make sense.
I wonder how many historical medieval cities had such low stores of food. We have stories of year-long sieges, so clearly it wasn't impossible.
Obviously, the plan is not to purchase food once a year, for the whole year. But a capacity for a year's worth without imports is an arbitrary safezone that would allow to easily overcome embargoes and major food loss from trade partners due to conflict or bad harvests.
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Obviously, the plan is not to purchase food once a year, for the whole year. But a capacity for a year's worth without imports is an arbitrary safezone that would allow to easily overcome embargoes and major food loss from trade partners due to conflict or bad harvests.
Yes, exactly. But that means the diminishing losses from your ever-decreasing surplus apply in your calculation of how long you can last, but unless you are actually embargoed they do not apply, and you do suffer the full loss on average.
If 25% is an average number, then that means a 25% increase in Dwilight's average food consumption. My own townsland loses 135% of its consumption to rot.... but it's easier to go overboard in a townsland than a city!
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I wonder how many historical medieval cities had such low stores of food. We have stories of year-long sieges, so clearly it wasn't impossible.
Historically, people also harvested the bulk of their food once a year, then had to figure out how to store all of it through the winter and the rest of the following year without spoilage—which was really very difficult with the technology they had.
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I wonder how many historical medieval cities had such low stores of food. We have stories of year-long sieges, so clearly it wasn't impossible.
A lot of food was "stored" alive in those times. Once of the reasons that cities had livestock inside was exactly for this purpose. In BM, this is simulated by the fact that even under siege, the city will still generate a bit of food. If you really want to do the math, you have to take production into account as well as consumption. While the production of most cities isn't all that much, when you calculate food over a period of weeks, it does start to make a difference.
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A lot of food was "stored" alive in those times. Once of the reasons that cities had livestock inside was exactly for this purpose. In BM, this is simulated by the fact that even under siege, the city will still generate a bit of food.
That makes a lot of sense. I always thought that those numbers were high if you only took into account roof gardens....
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Playing my Banker/Trader/Steward....
I only just started to leave my realm in search of food, and already I can see there is some adjusting to be had on my part. I need to carry bonds with me now, in order to trade outside my realm (can someone explain to me why foreign banks wont accept bonds then?). I have to deal much more with lords now. Would be nice to know if the region has a steward, and who that is. Could lead to more fruitful transactions. I can't rely at all on being able to broker any deals (not that I would really want to at this point, as I only want to bring food into my realm) since almost everything I see on the market is to buy buy buy.
There is also that nagging annoyance of a billion 100 bushel buy orders. Why can't we set up a 1000 bushel buy order, and let people fill them 100 bushels at a time? And for that matter, why can't we set permanent offers?
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you "need" to carry bonds with you?
eh.. yes and no. if you go a long way.. you get your taxes in bonds anyway... so you don't need to start with anything.
and you need bonds to trade inside your own realm anyway.. location makes no difference. the foreign bonds thing.. is just a game balance thingy... bonds don't get robbed and so it's fairly risk free to hump a load of bonds to another realm, as opposed to a load of gold. (yes.. trade is fairly risk free too... but they are sticking in delay or some such later)
eh.. as for the 1k vs 100 bushels thing. technically, a trader can match up the 1k and 100 bushels (eh.. if there are 10x100 and 1x1k)...
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I think that a mechanic that is permanently recurring that you have to deal with manually trade by trade is stupid.
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I think that a mechanic that is permanently recurring that you have to deal with manually trade by trade is stupid.
and the mechanics that manually requires you to repair your men's equipment, send out scouts, travel, join a religion, pay guild dues, etc?
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Allow traders to brokers deals where they take a loss. What concern is it of yours if I choose to lose money sending food to someone?
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Money laundering. And probably a few various methods of abuse of the trade system.
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Money laundering. And probably a few various methods of abuse of the trade system.
Define "abuse". There are ways to get around the no loss limitation, but it makes sense that it is there to being with. I see a trade offer from another realm at 40 and a region in my own realm with a buy order of 25 who will need the food, who cares if I take the loss? It helps my realm (or my aims) so be it.
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I agree that in certain situations it would be nice to be able to trade at a loss. I'm not arguing that there are no legitimate reasons to be able to do it.
But if that lord in your realm really wants the food, then you can tell him that if he posts an offer for 40, that you can fill it for him.
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Define "abuse". There are ways to get around the no loss limitation, but it makes sense that it is there to being with. I see a trade offer from another realm at 40 and a region in my own realm with a buy order of 25 who will need the food, who cares if I take the loss? It helps my realm (or my aims) so be it.
The problem here is that in the majority of cases taking the "loss" would be appropriate. However as soon as that is opened up you can guarantee the "stats" players will find a way to use it to increase the power of whatever realm is their favorite at that time. In some ways similar to how some players place characters in peaceful/rich realms for no other reason then to accumulate gold for the family to send off to their "active" characters. Sucks that we have to take precautions like this to try and limit the minority of players from playing against the spirit of the game, but that's a fact of game development.
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The problem here is that in the majority of cases taking the "loss" would be appropriate. However as soon as that is opened up you can guarantee the "stats" players will find a way to use it to increase the power of whatever realm is their favorite at that time. In some ways similar to how some players place characters in peaceful/rich realms for no other reason then to accumulate gold for the family to send off to their "active" characters. Sucks that we have to take precautions like this to try and limit the minority of players from playing against the spirit of the game, but that's a fact of game development.
1. Get rid of family wealth/asking for money
2. The minority who exploit weighs more than the majority who don't? (Don't quote Captain Kirk to Spock!)
You might as well get rid of movement towards regions because some other family members might just fake it and not actually travel. Get rid of messaging because someone may tell a lie to another player.
Taking a loss on trading can be a powerful political tool, or even just good hearted realm love. Don't tell me that as Banker of the realm I can't spend my own coin to feed my own country because some schmuck may game the system.
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1. Get rid of family wealth/asking for money
2. The minority who exploit weighs more than the majority who don't? (Don't quote Captain Kirk to Spock!)
You might as well get rid of movement towards regions because some other family members might just fake it and not actually travel. Get rid of messaging because someone may tell a lie to another player.
Taking a loss on trading can be a powerful political tool, or even just good hearted realm love. Don't tell me that as Banker of the realm I can't spend my own coin to feed my own country because some schmuck may game the system.
Every change needs to be considered in terms of the potential and scale of possible abuse. Thats simply a reality of game development, otherwise you soon are only left with the minority that constitutes the abuses as all the regular players leave what they will refer to as a "broken" game. There is a good reason pretty much every game EULA talks about not abusing "exploits"
For similar reasons the maximum price is limited on the market.
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Doesn't it only limit traders who aren't region lords? As a region lord you can create your own trade offers and take the loss by doing two trades.
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Define "abuse". There are ways to get around the no loss limitation, but it makes sense that it is there to being with. I see a trade offer from another realm at 40 and a region in my own realm with a buy order of 25 who will need the food, who cares if I take the loss? It helps my realm (or my aims) so be it.
It's not the traders job to take a loss. If you see such an offer, talk to the 25 region lord and tell him that if he offers at least 41, you can get him the food he wants.
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question... you can't actually talk to the lord unless you walk to his place. perhaps when you are at a marketplace, you should be able to message the lord/steward who have offers up?
for traders/steward only
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and the mechanics that manually requires you to repair your men's equipment, send out scouts, travel, join a religion, pay guild dues, etc?
Repair depends heavily on battle which is directly influenced by players. Food is the same week on week and the main variation in food harvest is RNG droughts. The rest of those examples are obviously irrelevant. Note that pay your men is automated.
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Repair depends heavily on battle which is directly influenced by players. Food is the same week on week and the main variation in food harvest is RNG droughts. The rest of those examples are obviously irrelevant. Note that pay your men is automated.
That's why I didn't say men's pay.
Judge examples: fining nobles, banning nobles, visiting prisoners
Ambassador examples: drafting treaties, signing treaties, diplo work
I can go on all day.
My point is, without buttons to push, you won't have a game to play. Trade is a set of buttons--without them, there's less game. Some people don't like the trade game. They can stop being region lords, maybe be a duke only, maybe just a simple knight. There's plenty of game left for region lords who don't want to mess with food.
Also, there are regions that don't need to mess with food week after week. Towns, badlands, forest, mountain--all these region types have to deal with food infrequently. It's only city and rural lords that have to deal with food on a weekly basis.
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It's not the traders job to take a loss. If you see such an offer, talk to the 25 region lord and tell him that if he offers at least 41, you can get him the food he wants.
My trader character has been treated extremely well by his realm (and given the chance to be banker when he was unknown), his love for his realm causes him to want to be generous when he can as a thank you. Under the old system I took losses constantly, but his income covered that. In the current system you can get around it by being a region lord, so it just punishes those that are traders, but not lords.
I won't keep arguing this, if this is how it will stay, so be it. I just haven't seen any compelling argument against it. (well, Because I Said So is one, and I'm actually fine with that)
best regards,
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There are several reasons, from small to large. One is potential abuses, including back-and-forth trading to drive up the statistics graph, possible as long as trade is instanteneous. But there's also the trading skill gains that would need to work differently, and many other areas where the system could be gamed.
But the main reason is that trading at a loss is a rare exception that does not justify opening so many jars of potential issues.
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That's why I didn't say men's pay.
Judge examples: fining nobles, banning nobles, visiting prisoners
Ambassador examples: drafting treaties, signing treaties, diplo work
I can go on all day.
My point is, without buttons to push, you won't have a game to play. Trade is a set of buttons--without them, there's less game. Some people don't like the trade game. They can stop being region lords, maybe be a duke only, maybe just a simple knight. There's plenty of game left for region lords who don't want to mess with food.
Also, there are regions that don't need to mess with food week after week. Towns, badlands, forest, mountain--all these region types have to deal with food infrequently. It's only city and rural lords that have to deal with food on a weekly basis.
I don't think you understand me. The entirety of this could be replaced with buy X00 per week, just like mens pay, and not at all like mens repair. Can you replace fining with fine X nobles per week? Write N treaties per month? It's not a game when there's no decisions to make, unless you count pleading people to put buy offers every week to be a game.
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That's the gist.
Automating payment of your men is easy, because the amount is fixed and the only choice you make - when to pay - does not carry very much consequences. Food trade is different, it is highly consequential.
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That's the gist.
Automating payment of your men is easy, because the amount is fixed and the only choice you make - when to pay - does not carry very much consequences. Food trade is different, it is highly consequential.
Actually, it's not so much the buying itself that could be automated, because as you say it is a complex process: how much to buy, where to buy from, the timing of the buying. However, the posting of buy and sell offers could easily be automated as it can be easily be fixed in advance (e.g. post a sell offer for 50 bushels at 20 gold every 7 days). The traders can handle the rest.
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Actually, it's not so much the buying itself that could be automated, because as you say it is a complex process: how much to buy, where to buy from, the timing of the buying. However, the posting of buy and sell offers could easily be automated as it can be easily be fixed in advance (e.g. post a sell offer for 50 bushels at 20 gold every 7 days). The traders can handle the rest.
Yes, and as has been said many times, there is currently work to provide some sort of automatic system.
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Yes, and as has been said many times, there is currently work to provide some sort of automatic system.
Yes, and thanks for that! Sorry, I didn't mean to push or anything. Keep up the great work!