Fifth Invasion

[Geronus]

It can be somewhat easy to get frustrated since there's no metric with which to measure success other than the extent to which you're not losing (which is not really a very satisfying metric to use).

[Tom]

It can be somewhat easy to get frustrated since there's no metric with which to measure success other than the extent to which you're not losing (which is not really a very satisfying metric to use).

Which is 100% intentional. Overlord goes to great lengths to hide any indicators that would tell you if you're making progress or not. I think bridging the time until the flesh eaters were ready with weak human troops was brilliant. I'm sure some people thought he's running out of Daimons, and were spiritually crushed when the flesh eaters appeared. :-)

Yes, I am evil.

[Geronus]

Which is 100% intentional. Overlord goes to great lengths to hide any indicators that would tell you if you're making progress or not. I think bridging the time until the flesh eaters were ready with weak human troops was brilliant. I'm sure some people thought he's running out of Daimons, and were spiritually crushed when the flesh eaters appeared. :-)

Yes, I am evil.

I figured. 

It totally makes sense that Overlord would be keen to disguise any weaknesses or setbacks in an IC sense. Just remember that if you want to avoid losing your players you should occasionally reward them with some sort of indication of success or progress, or they'll begin to think that what they're doing is pointless and you'll end up with people reacting like Naidraug. Overlord doesn't have to come out and announce 'Woe is me!' to the entire island, but there could be something from time to time when we do good, you know? An RP Event with a hopeful tone, some sort of subtle indication that something good has happened...

In any case, I hope you understand that I'm not trying to criticize too much. My goal is generally just to try to communicate my own experience and in some cases to try to get to the heart of some of the things other people are saying. I hope that doing so is helpful and constructive, and that I don't sound like I'm whining, at least most of the time. I recognize that I might occasionally come off that way.

[Anaris]

Just remember that if you want to avoid losing your players you should occasionally reward them with some sort of indication of success or progress, or they'll begin to think that what they're doing is pointless and you'll end up with people reacting like Naidraug. Overlord doesn't have to come out and announce 'Woe is me!' to the entire island, but there could be something from time to time when we do good, you know? An RP Event with a hopeful tone, some sort of subtle indication that something good has happened...

I cannot overemphasize how important this is.

This is the first invasion since the Second where the players have absolutely no idea of their progress. There is no one at all they can talk to who isn't firmly under Overlord's control.

If you don't want people to decide, "Well, I guess Tom really does want BT to sink, no matter what we do. After all, nothing we do does more than make him change names and tactics," you need to provide something that gives at least a vague indicator of how far we are away from total disaster. Something that's not under Overlord's control.

[Chenier]

A paused priest still counts as a priest for the purposes of maintaining a religion. Locked accounts are no exception.

Great. No way to arrest him, then. That's just wounderful.

When will the account be deleted?

Or, Rio could just sack all the temples...

[Tom]

It totally makes sense that Overlord would be keen to disguise any weaknesses or setbacks in an IC sense. Just remember that if you want to avoid losing your players you should occasionally reward them with some sort of indication of success or progress, or they'll begin to think that what they're doing is pointless

There are several such indicators. A few people have followed them actively. Like with the deus-ex-machina, there's no "progress indicator", but there are some things that obviously don't change much and some things that do.

[Tom]

This is the first invasion since the Second where the players have absolutely no idea of their progress. There is no one at all they can talk to who isn't firmly under Overlord's control.

Correct, and intentional.

[Geronus]

Great. No way to arrest him, then. That's just wounderful.

When will the account be deleted?

Or, Rio could just sack all the temples...

I'm fairly certain that's our intent, though there might be some in rogue regions at this point.

[Geronus]

There are several such indicators. A few people have followed them actively. Like with the deus-ex-machina, there's no "progress indicator", but there are some things that obviously don't change much and some things that do.

I would hazard a guess and say that it's probably not very clear what exactly these indicators are indicating. I certainly can't think of any that appear meaningful other than the evolution of daimon military strength over time, but since we don't (and apparently never will) understand their recruitment mechanisms and/or resource restrictions, it's impossible for a player to say with any certainty whether the cause of any given period of decline is a genuine loss of capability or simply a normal statistical variance due to the fortunes of war. We're basically attempting to play a game we don't understand and calculate the score without knowing the rules. So far the only sense of accomplishment I've really gotten other than winning a battle here and there is when we figure out one of the rules, but not one thing I've learned has suggested how and when this might end. It's just helping us to play the game better (I hope).

[JPierreD]

Honestly? I'd be the one complaining - or not playing in BT at all - if Tom just came out and said if the island is or is not going to be sunk. What fun is there in that?

Things are changing, Overlord is adjusting his tactics, we are succeeding in some places and failing in others. What else do you want? If you want the invasion to end, then move to an island without invaders, but if you want the invasion's experience to improve then make suggestions politely.

I am personally having a lot of fun, and I am in Riombara, realm in a terrible position, cut off from all his allies, only close to one realm that wants us dead and another that has surrendered to Overlord. If there is a place in where people should be frustrated and hopeless, well, the south is that place.

Who says this is about having countless minions thrown at us, the heroes, so we can defeat them before we meet the boss, and rescue the princess?

[Chenier]

I figured. 

It totally makes sense that Overlord would be keen to disguise any weaknesses or setbacks in an IC sense. Just remember that if you want to avoid losing your players you should occasionally reward them with some sort of indication of success or progress, or they'll begin to think that what they're doing is pointless and you'll end up with people reacting like Naidraug. Overlord doesn't have to come out and announce 'Woe is me!' to the entire island, but there could be something from time to time when we do good, you know? An RP Event with a hopeful tone, some sort of subtle indication that something good has happened...

In any case, I hope you understand that I'm not trying to criticize too much. My goal is generally just to try to communicate my own experience and in some cases to try to get to the heart of some of the things other people are saying. I hope that doing so is helpful and constructive, and that I don't sound like I'm whining, at least most of the time. I recognize that I might occasionally come off that way.

My character already considers that his silence is due to a lack of things to gloat about.

Overlord is usually more revealing by what he doesn't say than by what he does say.

[Chenier]

I cannot overemphasize how important this is.

This is the first invasion since the Second where the players have absolutely no idea of their progress. There is no one at all they can talk to who isn't firmly under Overlord's control.

If you don't want people to decide, "Well, I guess Tom really does want BT to sink, no matter what we do. After all, nothing we do does more than make him change names and tactics," you need to provide something that gives at least a vague indicator of how far we are away from total disaster. Something that's not under Overlord's control.

I disagree.

I feel like I know more of our progress in this invasion than I did in the last two. I don't feel like I can do !@#$ about it, given how small our economy is, but still I feel like I know how the invaders are doing overall. In the last two invasions, it felt like everything was preset, and things were bound to happen on a timer instead of in reaction to player actions. Waiting it out always felt like the best strategy, and therefore the best policies for survival was to redirect the invaders on other realms as much as possible by early-invasion deals with the GM factions.

[Chenier]

I'm fairly certain that's our intent, though there might be some in rogue regions at this point.

When Hvrek so nicely gave us a religion spread, all temples were located in Riombara.

I assume he built one in Fwuvoghor, but I OOC understood that the daimons would go and destroy it. They might not have, though, but I'm more enclined to believe that Riombarans failed to do as they said they would. Could be both, however.

Honestly? I'd be the one complaining - or not playing in BT at all - if Tom just came out and said if the island is or is not going to be sunk. What fun is there in that?

Things are changing, Overlord is adjusting his tactics, we are succeeding in some places and failing in others. What else do you want? If you want the invasion to end, then move to an island without invaders, but if you want the invasion's experience to improve then make suggestions politely.

I am personally having a lot of fun, and I am in Riombara, realm in a terrible position, cut off from all his allies, only close to one realm that wants us dead and another that has surrendered to Overlord. If there is a place in where people should be frustrated and hopeless, well, the south is that place.

Who says this is about having countless minions thrown at us, the heroes, so we can defeat them before we meet the boss, and rescue the princess?

I agree. Not knowing makes it more interesting. It always felt lame in the last two invasions how our actions seemed meaningless, that we were all just lab rats for the GMs to do with as they pleased.

As for Rio, think about us!

We are the smallest realm on BT, relying on the poorest regions, we are completely surrounded by the blight, it would take very little to blight our capital, our ally is crippled, and the only other realm in the area is a hostile realm with a strong military still.

We'll fight like wolverines, but our bite is still pretty small. We don't have any advies to go hunt for scrolls for us either, nor many nobles to counter daimon worship that seeps from the blight.

[Indirik]

When will the account be deleted?

There is a semi-regular schedule for when inactive accounts get deleted. But I thought someone said that the player had already deleted the locked accounts?

Or, Rio could just sack all the temples...

That would work, too.

[Indirik]

I feel like I know more of our progress in this invasion than I did in the last two.

I admit that I don't know much of anything about the invasion progress. I can't seem to get any information out of anyone, other than basic reports of "Midnight is here", "Darkest hour is there", "Can anyone send help?" If anyone is doing anything, or things are being figured out, then they're being done in circles I'm not it.