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I'm a little surprised Atamara's local board has been silent since the reopening... but then again, even with unpausing Ravendon, I get the feeling Atamara is less eventful right now. The North is a little active right now, but even that is moving at a snail's pace.

Am I just missing out on some crazy stuff going on in the other half of the continent?

Well the Darka vs CE and Co. war was going on but then CE got the border regions and gave them away to Talerium...pointlessly, IMO in a war of aggression. (Is aware it does mean its harder for Darka to ever attack CE but that wasn't ever really happening.)

IIRC there was some action after the region giving away at BoM with Darka trying to save BoM I believe but I don't recall exactly what was going on then. After that the north has basically gone silent.

Quote from: Penchant on October 11, 2013, 04:59:21 AM
Well the Darka vs CE and Co. war was going on but then CE got the border regions and gave them away to Talerium...pointlessly, IMO in a war of aggression. (Is aware it does mean its harder for Darka to ever attack CE but that wasn't ever really happening.)

IIRC there was some action after the region giving away at BoM with Darka trying to save BoM I believe but I don't recall exactly what was going on then. After that the north has basically gone silent.

I was and still am in the North; moved from the Barony to Lyonesse as the Barony fell. For some reason beyond my understanding, there was a 40k CS army at our door... I was hoping to milk the war with Rieleston a bit longer, it was just getting good. The North is quiet on an external level now, but there's a lot kinda floating around. It could go off or fizzle out any day.

Quote from: Penchant on October 11, 2013, 04:59:21 AM
Well the Darka vs CE and Co. war was going on but then CE got the border regions and gave them away to Talerium...pointlessly,

Which border regions? I am not in Atamara now.

There is CE army looting at Darkan lands now. So war is going. This has been damn long and frustrating war :P

Now Darka is mainly trying to keep them away... and ofcourse trying to get some help, but but... There seems not to be anybody willing to jump in, which i kind of understand... those willing to jump in this war... will prolly jump to opposite side :/

Like Suville just did. At least on paper. Not sure if they will really send troops.

Quote from: Indirik on October 11, 2013, 01:06:24 PM
Like Suville just did. At least on paper. Not sure if they will really send troops.

They should; I think a few Suvillians came to the Barony. They've been pretty good at participating.

Suvillians have been marching to war against Darka for months, just not as frequently as CE/Strombran/etc. because they are so far away. I suspect the war declaration was just because they finally got sick of the diplomatic setting up of battles while only neutral to Darka.

Storming into Darka!

Well not me personally, but I see battle reports. mm is Barony died? ML vs Silnaria? Rieleston kill Eston yet?

Quote from: Blue Star on October 12, 2013, 06:36:34 PM
Storming into Darka!

Well not me personally, but I see battle reports. mm is Barony died? ML vs Silnaria? Rieleston kill Eston yet?

I was hoping for more detail, but those seem accurate.

Is my realm dead yet? Or did leaving give it a chance to survive?

I think the verdict is still out.

Yenom was elected king, but his reign was silent. While he was silent, Minas Leon invaded because Raoul was offended that Gwen married Claudius after Merlin allegedly promised Gwen to a De La Fere. Claudius was mad he didn't become king and declared shanandoah a roleplayed principality. That caused Yenom to have Gerhardt banish him (aroudn the time claudius got stabbed). Claudius and others joined Minas Leon. Claudius bought Shanandoah for ML. Phillipe Lacoste bought Shanandoah back. The world cried out about the corruption of shanandoah's officials after the lengthy rule of Duke Saeculo.

Yenom was protested out for his silence. Now Drizztle rules. The war with ML continues. Thats all the publicly-known major events I think.

Quote from: Dante Silverfire on October 14, 2013, 11:48:32 PM
Is my realm dead yet? Or did leaving give it a chance to survive?

I would summarize your realm as unofficially dead, IMO.

Quote from: Vita on October 14, 2013, 11:53:32 PM
Now Drizztle rules. The war with ML continues. Thats all the publicly-known major events I think.

Drizztle rules? Ugh...yep it is dead.

Maybe the King needs to return to fix things. (ie. nail in coffin)

Quote from: Dante Silverfire on October 15, 2013, 04:22:13 AM
Drizztle rules? Ugh...yep it is dead.

Maybe the King needs to return to fix things. (ie. nail in coffin)

Return and give it up to Lyonesse instead! It's the cool thing to do!

There has been some intresting events on Atamra recently.

Suville & Coria have had some diplomatic crisis. Eston has started to help Silnaria as defencive wise(atleast now) against Minas Leon.

Darka has tried to open negotations to end war, but not a single reply from enemy side(CE & Tara & Strombran & Suville), not even "Not intrested!", which was reply last time Darka tried to open discussion. Same time thought, CE's judge has cried over Darkas judge who has been taking CE prisoners gold and demanded that Darka stops that. So, i guess war will continue to the bitter end. Darka was finally able to push away enemy troops which looted hard Darkan border regions. Some went rogue, but are now back under Darkan banners.

Minas Leon and Rielston signed federation treaty. Rumours said Lyoness were planning to join as well, but new King of Lyoness and king of Minas Leon are not in too good terms cause of Lyoness Kings backround as Minas Ithil supporter. This, no doubt will tighten relations between Lyoness and Rielston as well, and Eston Rielston too... So there is a lot brewing at north, and even south finally seem to have some sort of action in sight.

-Jaune

Happily, Suville seems quite an active place. Lots of messages, several RPs, good discussion, and the prospect of a war. Good time to have just joined the realm. :)

Moto is still here silverfire. Do not worry, for I will win at BM.

Quote from: Motosuwa on October 26, 2013, 08:41:56 AM
Moto is still here silverfire. Do not worry, for I will win at BM.

Did he decide to come back (to the game, not Merlin)? I knew he was taking a break.

This Tie  ::)

QuoteReferendum Results   (16 hours, 49 minutes ago)
The referendum "Vote for the Ruler" has ended. Here is the final tally:

    30 votes for Audrey
    30 votes for Ottar
    13 votes for Nireus D.Natalle
    23 abstentions
    88 votes were not cast.


Due to the tie, a random draw decided the winning choice. The winning choice is therefore Ottar, with 30 votes. A simple majority was required (i.e., 1 votes).
All hail to the new Tyrant, Ottar Perkeleet, Tyrant of Tara, Royal of Tara, Ambassador of Tara.

As a reminder, the full text of the referendum was:
This is an election for the position of Ruler (Tyrant), initiated automatically because the position was vacated.

All nobles of the realm will vote, each vote having the same weight.

Quote from: jaune on October 24, 2013, 09:37:20 AM
There has been some intresting events on Atamra recently.

Suville & Coria have had some diplomatic crisis. Eston has started to help Silnaria as defencive wise(atleast now) against Minas Leon.

Darka has tried to open negotations to end war, but not a single reply from enemy side(CE & Tara & Strombran & Suville), not even "Not intrested!", which was reply last time Darka tried to open discussion. Same time thought, CE's judge has cried over Darkas judge who has been taking CE prisoners gold and demanded that Darka stops that. So, i guess war will continue to the bitter end. Darka was finally able to push away enemy troops which looted hard Darkan border regions. Some went rogue, but are now back under Darkan banners.

Minas Leon and Rielston signed federation treaty. Rumours said Lyoness were planning to join as well, but new King of Lyoness and king of Minas Leon are not in too good terms cause of Lyoness Kings backround as Minas Ithil supporter. This, no doubt will tighten relations between Lyoness and Rielston as well, and Eston Rielston too... So there is a lot brewing at north, and even south finally seem to have some sort of action in sight.

-Jaune

Lyonesse has a Queen who did all that, not a King.

In other news, Lyonesse's official currency has been declared to be turnips by the banker, who recently knighted his horse and petitioned he be given a Lordship.

Lord Midnight rides again!

Sir Glitterhoof will strike fear into the hearts of his enemies. And carrots.

Quite rapid worsening at relations between Llyoness and Darka has led to war between those 2 realms.

-Jaune

Quote from: jaune on January 08, 2014, 07:32:42 AM
Quite rapid worsening at relations between Llyoness and Darka has led to war between those 2 realms.

-Jaune

Pretty unfortunate, in all honesty. I honestly don't think either side wanted it to turn out like that. At least the new banner is up!

I think too that this was just not something nobody else than CE wanted to happen, but i guess Lyoness wanted its "freedom" and Darka didnt want CE to on its lands...

Time will show, will Llyoness be realm which have lost war to both sides, or will this turn table too much on CE's favor and Darka will be stomped quickly.

-jaune

Quote from: jaune on January 08, 2014, 08:20:50 AM
I think too that this was just not something nobody else than CE wanted to happen, but i guess Lyoness wanted its "freedom" and Darka didnt want CE to on its lands...

Time will show, will Llyoness be realm which have lost war to both sides, or will this turn table too much on CE's favor and Darka will be stomped quickly.

-jaune

When you put freedom in quotes, you lose all ability to claim you're fighting oppression.

I'm loving this personally, I've gone from declaring turnips as our legal currency, knighting my horse, to governing as acting King in Raziella's absence. Now to lead Sir Glitterhoof to battle against the Darkan invaders! Be afraid, for he will drink all of your 7up!

Matter of opinion here, potential point of contention: Lyonesse was already losing this war to both sides. That doesn't even count losing as Eston to form the country in the first place.

I put it on quotes just cause you never had, and will not anytime soon to have that freedom :)

Lyoness was creation of this war, not sure if there is even left much of nobles whom were Estonian when they surrendered?

Many of my advisors adviced me to burn our border lands immediatly after Eston surrendered, i now must admit that it would have been good idea :)

-Jaune

Quote from: jaune on January 08, 2014, 08:36:49 AM
Lyoness was creation of this war, not sure if there is even left much of nobles whom were Estonian when they surrendered?

I think Azeral (or Azreal?) is the only one left.

Honestly, I was kind of surprised Darka didn't try to shore up their borders or take a portion of Eston once they'd heard of the surrender.

Quote from: jaune on January 08, 2014, 08:36:49 AM
I put it on quotes just cause you never had, and will not anytime soon to have that freedom :)

Lyoness was creation of this war, not sure if there is even left much of nobles whom were Estonian when they surrendered?

Many of my advisors adviced me to burn our border lands immediatly after Eston surrendered, i now must admit that it would have been good idea :)

-Jaune

We would have, had Darka respected our very reasonable terms. CE has been very amiable towards it.

Heh, those terms were ridiculous, take a look at the map!

With my edits, it would have been fair and equal and would have put CE & Darka on same position.

Quote from: jaune on January 08, 2014, 08:53:05 AM
Heh, those terms were ridiculous, take a look at the map!

With my edits, it would have been fair and equal and would have put CE & Darka on same position.

I've never seen your edit, but you can hardly blame a realm for now wanting their lands to be the battleground for two superpowers.

It is their choise, being neutral (treating both sides equally), or they choose side.

Now they thought they were neutral, but when other side is jumping on joy with their "neutrality" and support it with great joy, while other side is grunting and wants to change things, alert bells should ring, mayby that proposal was not that neutral after all? And pushing and THREATENING to accept that treaty or they will start to co-operate more deeply with the other side, doesnt make it anymore neutral.

-jaune

Quote from: jaune on January 08, 2014, 09:10:57 AM
It is their choise, being neutral (treating both sides equally), or they choose side.

Now they thought they were neutral, but when other side is jumping on joy with their "neutrality" and support it with great joy, while other side is grunting and wants to change things, alert bells should ring, mayby that proposal was not that neutral after all? And pushing and THREATENING to accept that treaty or they will start to co-operate more deeply with the other side, doesnt make it anymore neutral.

-jaune

If by threatening, you mean notifying you that your realm was in violation of our border policy, asking you to not fight a battle on our lands, and then your General telling us to remove our troops from one of our own regions because you were switching to murderous settings, then yes, we threatened you.

There was also threat about co-operation with CE, threat things to get escalated if we dont move out etc...

This war occurs because of conflict of intrests, like wars usually do. Your intrest is to keep battles outside from your realm, mine are to keep them outside my realm. There was few options to achieve this for you, but only one option to achieve my intrest and i'm proceeding on it.

-Jaune

Let's not get into an argument about it. There were definitely threats on both sides. Who made one first (probably me) is irrelevant because, under normal circumstances, Darka had no passage rights anyway. The standard response is supposed to be mild anger. Add in a war with a bandaid "compensation" and ordering the lord of his own region out: you've got a major problem.

You are definitely right that this war comes out of a conflict of interest (as well as correctly identifying the conflicts), but I disagree that you had one option. I swore Ravendon was painting his solution for Darka on a billboard... Too late now, though.

I don't want to start a forum war (because this definitely could), but that's why I'd expect Darka to lose: You're focused on winning the next battle. Enri is okay with losing that battle because it mean he wins the war instead. It might still work out for Darka due to sheer might (and I hope it does; always been a fun realm to deal with), but the road's not going to get any easier.

What are passage rights? ::)

March Darka March!!

Quote from: Eirikr on January 09, 2014, 12:57:56 AM
Let's not get into an argument about it. There were definitely threats on both sides. Who made one first (probably me) is irrelevant because, under normal circumstances, Darka had no passage rights anyway. The standard response is supposed to be mild anger. Add in a war with a bandaid "compensation" and ordering the lord of his own region out: you've got a major problem.

You are definitely right that this war comes out of a conflict of interest (as well as correctly identifying the conflicts), but I disagree that you had one option. I swore Ravendon was painting his solution for Darka on a billboard... Too late now, though.

I don't want to start a forum war (because this definitely could), but that's why I'd expect Darka to lose: You're focused on winning the next battle. Enri is okay with losing that battle because it mean he wins the war instead. It might still work out for Darka due to sheer might (and I hope it does; always been a fun realm to deal with), but the road's not going to get any easier.

Yeah it was not a smart move by Darka. Was it more beneficial to CE Lyonesse's policy? Probably, but was it worse than getting a new enemy? No. Darka should be trying to get allies, not give them to CE.

Selfishness is not in the best interests of yourself long term. Sometimes you have to be willing to take some losses to get the big win in the end, something Darka evidently is willing to do.

if you only heard the grumbling about the treaty in CE... I insisted, managed to push it through, and it's worked magnificently hasn't it  8)

now if only i hadn't lost that election  :'( that was actually a real shocker for me.

Quote from: Penchant on January 09, 2014, 05:44:35 AM
Yeah it was not a smart move by Darka. Was it more beneficial to CE Lyonesse's policy? Probably, but was it worse than getting a new enemy? No. Darka should be trying to get allies, not give them to CE.

Selfishness is not in the best interests of yourself long term. Sometimes you have to be willing to take some losses to get the big win in the end, something Darka evidently is willing to do.

My point exactly. I was trying not to be so obvious about it, but I guess there's no reason not to... IC, Lyonesse is pretty cheesed off.

I also wasn't aware that negotiation on the topic had broken down between Raziella and Kostaja; I actually thought the treaty had been signed by at least one party by now... But Darka didn't bother to investigate or work the situation to postpone something like this. Though...

The treaty would have been end of Darka and Lyoness clearly was switching its side to CE.

All ignorance to my proposal to edit treaty more fair and claiming it is fair, which it really is not. All the talks were pretty much accept this! Then denying our passage to Lyoness while CE march on us.

I pretty much counted that Lyoness would have "loved" its realm enough not to get it burnt and we seemed to have decent relations, which although changed pretty quickly when that silly treaty was put on table.

Anyway, this definately spice up things.

-jaune

Quote from: jaune on January 09, 2014, 07:29:36 AM
The treaty would have been end of Darka and Lyoness clearly was switching its side to CE.

Except we weren't. Ravendon dropped several big hints that if Darka put in some effort, Lyonesse might try to do them some favors. We only explicitly mentioned the possibility of joining CE's side after Darka was ordering us out of our own regions... even then it was an example of logic, not a declaration of policy.

Quote from: jaune on January 09, 2014, 07:29:36 AM
All ignorance to my proposal to edit treaty more fair and claiming it is fair, which it really is not. All the talks were pretty much accept this! Then denying our passage to Lyoness while CE march on us.

I'll agree it's not fair, but the original treaty concept did hurt both sides. (Enri actually suggested giving up on Darka and declaring war on Lyonesse when the issue first came up.) I can't comment on your edits because they never made it to the rest of the realm's eyes. If they were good solutions, why not ask about their status and have Ravendon look into it, instead of threatening to obliterate Melias?

Miscommunication aside, neither side had passage rights, as I said. If Darka had asked, it probably would have been granted  and the CE would now be waiting in Anost. You can't really fault us for denying you passage rights when you're already halfway through our realm without announcing your arrival. We should have probably had scouts looking for you, but is the thief not a thief when the banker forgets to lock the safe? The CE, on the other hand, actually asked for permission.

Quote from: jaune on January 09, 2014, 07:29:36 AM
I pretty much counted that Lyoness would have "loved" its realm enough not to get it burnt and we seemed to have decent relations, which although changed pretty quickly when that silly treaty was put on table.

You forget who is in the realm... The Himouras are notorious for wanting respect, be it for their sovereignty or for their family. Ravendon is an ex-member of the League of the Eagle who kept trying to subvert the most powerful outside controls on Coria to make it truly independent. Caleb is from a Minas Ithil family that longs for its old home and the independence it used to have. All were founding members of Silnaria and then involved in the rebellion when we thought Merlin was jeopardizing our chances for independence (a catch 22, in fact). Add to that the fact that the rest of Lyonesse is fairly new and the realm is still looking to carve out its place and you've got a powderkeg of idealism. Slipping out from under the CE's boot to rest neatly beneath Darka's boot wouldn't be acceptable to most of us.

Also you've just described blackmail... "We know you treasure XYZ, so if you don't obey, we'll hurt XYZ." It might work, but it only ever builds resent. We thought Darka would have enough sense to realize that wasn't going to work.

Quote from: jaune on January 09, 2014, 07:29:36 AM
Anyway, this definately spice up things.

-jaune

That much, we can definitely agree upon. Things are going to get tense, but I want to thank you right now, Jaune, for helping to keep this game fun. :)

I had ALWAYS informed when Darka entered your lands, always tried to inform where we go to avoid unwanted casualties.

Your Queen didnt most of the time reply, of if she replied those were positive soundings, until the last trip, when she didnt reply at all, until we were at Melias watching CE army behind the border. I have re-posted my proposal to CE & Lyoness Queen, but i guess it is a bit late now.

-Jaune

Quote from: jaune on January 09, 2014, 08:45:35 AM
I had ALWAYS informed when Darka entered your lands, always tried to inform where we go to avoid unwanted casualties.

Your Queen didnt most of the time reply, of if she replied those were positive soundings, until the last trip, when she didnt reply at all, until we were at Melias watching CE army behind the border. I have re-posted my proposal to CE & Lyoness Queen, but i guess it is a bit late now.

-Jaune

I thought it might be something like that, but I had no way of knowing. I'd always seen it as common practice to inform the Ruler and General, so I had to act on what I knew. I don't think Ravendon received anything (even before I brought this issue to bear) until you guys were in Melias telling us to move... which, as I kept saying, wasn't very nice of an uninvited guest.

Typically, no reply doesn't translate into permission, either. OOC, I accept the argument that it'd have been tactically braindead for you to wait for Raziella's permission, but there's more at stake.

Ah well... It should be fun. I haven't had this much commanding to do in a while.

The time frame our army to move on the defending position when CE appears, doesnt allow waiting :) Too often we missed turn or 2 and CE were sitting Hawthorne. First time i heard we are not allowed to enter your lands was when we were already in Melias from my general that Lyoness General was jumping up and down in anger.

Remember, i never signed that silly treaty, i had impression there was nothing changed. I think its pretty much miscommunication beteween the Queenie and I... + that i thought some of the messages Himoura sent i thought was sent by your Queen, which made me think she has lost her mind and dont read my messages at all.

-jaune

My point was that you didn't hear permission, either. Just silence, right? Which is neither allowance or denial. :) We're on the same page here; it makes sense not to retreat tactically... and I'll leave it there for now.

I did, however, not realize you hadn't signed the treaty (nor has the CE) until your General pointed it out... in which case, the last I'd been told, both sides were waiting it out for us to come to an acceptable agreement. (Guess that temporary ceasefire broke down, too?) If that were true, then neither Darka nor the CE should have been moving into Lyonesse... and Darka moved in first anyway.

Miscommunication all around!

Quote+ that i thought some of the messages Himoura sent i thought was sent by your Queen, which made me think she has lost her mind and dont read my messages at all.

I get confused, too... and others in our realm. I can't really blame ya!

Like said, i had informed your queen we move in, we had just been there as well week ago, when CE first appeared on the border, they went back and we went back... they came back and we came back and suddenly it was an issue. I politly asked 2 times Lyoness troops to move away frmo Melias to avoid unwanted casualties, when those were ignored, i told we have to switch murderous settings to not confuse our army, these all messages were sent to everybody in Melias and to your Queen.

As reply to that, Melias Count informed he will co-operate with CE and more Lyoness troops moved in while your Queen lowered relations with us... Very little was left for me to do.

After all, prolly only one getting advantage to this is CE... atlest in short term. Lyoness will be burnt to the ground. In the long run, this might turn bad for Darka... but atleast we have something to do while CE refits :)

Quote from: Eirikr on January 09, 2014, 08:36:49 AM
Also you've just described blackmail... "We know you treasure XYZ, so if you don't obey, we'll hurt XYZ." It might work, but it only ever builds resent. We thought Darka would have enough sense to realize that wasn't going to work.

I think that's extortion, actually.

black·mail
noun
1. the action, treated as a criminal offense, of demanding money from a person in return for not revealing compromising or injurious information about that person.

Quote"Pay me 1000 gold, sir, or I will reveal to all the other nobles that you have intimate relations with goats!"

ex·tor·tion
noun
1. the practice of obtaining something, esp. money, through force or threats.

Quote"That's a nice realm you've got there. It would be a shame if SOMEONE BURNT IT TO THE GROUND."

Quote from: GoldPanda on January 11, 2014, 06:44:17 AM
I think that's extortion, actually.

black·mail
noun
1. the action, treated as a criminal offense, of demanding money from a person in return for not revealing compromising or injurious information about that person.

ex·tor·tion
noun
1. the practice of obtaining something, esp. money, through force or threats.

10 points to you. I couldn't find the right word, but I knew it was off. Though, in common use, blackmail is no longer exclusively monetary, no?

In other news: DARKA! STOP WOUNDING ME! :(

This can be turned to otherway around too:
Lyoness: Sign this treaty or we start to co-operate with CE (and treaty was already like that)
Darka: Edit treaty or we will assume you co-operate with CE

-Jaune

It's like you're not reading my points: Nobody in Lyonesse saw that discussion other than the Queen. Of course, she does have final say, but if you'd taken the hit this time and asked Ravendon to figure out what was up with the treaty and why there was no negotiation, we wouldn't likely be in this situation.

Also, you seem to keep ignoring that while you believe it to benefit CE more (and my gut says you're right too), the CE really thought it was the end of the war for them with no victor.

Quote from: Eirikr on January 12, 2014, 04:37:50 PM
It's like you're not reading my points: Nobody in Lyonesse saw that discussion other than the Queen. Of course, she does have final say, but if you'd taken the hit this time and asked Ravendon to figure out what was up with the treaty and why there was no negotiation, we wouldn't likely be in this situation.

Also, you seem to keep ignoring that while you believe it to benefit CE more (and my gut says you're right too), the CE really thought it was the end of the war for them with no victor.

AFAIK, it was fair and equal for both sides but CE was more likely to take advantage of it. (Wishes the treaty was public info (it slightly is as a bunch of different foreigners know about it) as we could have a real discussion)

Heh, terms for both realms were equal, but result would be far from equal.

But for now, situation doesnt look so bad for Darka, we got decent amount of gold from Lyoness regions and we dont have to dodge their troops anymore. I doubt they are able to pull out big enough army to be real threat to Darka and southern part of Lyoness will get burnt. Who knows Darka might take region or 2.

-jaune

Quote from: Penchant on January 12, 2014, 04:49:00 PM
AFAIK, it was fair and equal for both sides but CE was more likely to take advantage of it. (Wishes the treaty was public info (it slightly is as a bunch of different foreigners know about it) as we could have a real discussion)

I'd fetch it for you, but I'm wounded... I don't think there's any issue with posting it since it's not exactly hidden info, nor does it really serve as intelligence. Basically, it says that neither side will fight in Lyonesse, allowing passage rights to whomever asked first. The other must wait in their borders, granting 5 days to traverse Lyonesse freely. Both sides (and Lyonesse) must be informed of any passage as well.

This means the CE gets a choke point at Anost (or whatever they have worked out with Silnaria and Eston) and Darka would deal with three possible border entry points. I'll let you do any applicable strategizing about counters or practical movements, but I'll agree the terms are equal yet not fair.

And CE could do hit & run type of strikes and we could not hit back while they hide at Lyoness lands. Hit region and move back to Lyoness lands... Hit another region, move back to Lyoness lands... and then walk back to CE and we cant even chase them until 5 days have passed and they have refitted and build up defences on their border. Then we stare them 5 days, and move back to our own lands for refit...

-Jaune

Quote from: jaune on January 12, 2014, 06:47:16 PM
And CE could do hit & run type of strikes and we could not hit back while they hide at Lyoness lands. Hit region and move back to Lyoness lands... Hit another region, move back to Lyoness lands... and then walk back to CE and we cant even chase them until 5 days have passed and they have refitted and build up defences on their border. Then we stare them 5 days, and move back to our own lands for refit...

-Jaune

I wouldn't have allowed that; you go in and you come out when you're done. It's travel, not guerrilla warfare.

Yes yes, as you didnt allow them to use your lands when they last time attacked :)

Either way, deal was not accepted.

Now things are much more intresting than with the deal, better? Not sure yet, more intresting, definately! :)

Quote from: Eirikr on January 12, 2014, 06:41:06 PM
I'd fetch it for you, but I'm wounded... I don't think there's any issue with posting it since it's not exactly hidden info, nor does it really serve as intelligence. Basically, it says that neither side will fight in Lyonesse, allowing passage rights to whomever asked first. The other must wait in their borders, granting 5 days to traverse Lyonesse freely. Both sides (and Lyonesse) must be informed of any passage as well.

This means the CE gets a choke point at Anost (or whatever they have worked out with Silnaria and Eston) and Darka would deal with three possible border entry points. I'll let you do any applicable strategizing about counters or practical movements, but I'll agree the terms are equal yet not fair.

I already knew the jist of the terms but as I am involved myself I don't know the importance of keeping it hidden. Now that its out, the obvious thing for Darka to do IMO is just go to Eston and have battles there instead of their land. There is no reason Darka can't be more aggressive.

Quote from: jaune on January 12, 2014, 08:15:16 PM
Yes yes, as you didnt allow them to use your lands when they last time attacked :)

Last time they attacked is when I made it an issue, as far as I know. Sorry I can't enforce a policy I didn't know I was going to create.

Quote from: Penchant on January 12, 2014, 09:18:20 PM
I already knew the jist of the terms but as I am involved myself I don't know the importance of keeping it hidden. Now that its out, the obvious thing for Darka to do IMO is just go to Eston and have battles there instead of their land. There is no reason Darka can't be more aggressive.

Until, you know, Eston does the same thing Lyonesse tried to do.

Quote from: Penchant on January 12, 2014, 09:18:20 PM
I already knew the jist of the terms but as I am involved myself I don't know the importance of keeping it hidden. Now that its out, the obvious thing for Darka to do IMO is just go to Eston and have battles there instead of their land. There is no reason Darka can't be more aggressive.

That's only the obvious thing to do after we've conquered Hawthorne. :)

No! not hawthorne!

I'm quite sure CE's tone would have been diffrent if borders would have been closed for real (which ofcourse would have suited Darka well) or if my proposal would have required for CE.

Lyoness gambled by enforcing Darka to sign treaty, and Darka called... time will show how the cards were given.

I dont see Eston that much troublelous, we have rarely fought on their lands and i guess still most of the fighing will be done around Melias/Hawthorne sector. A lot threats to bring whole Atamara upon Darka was thrown from Lyoness... bluff? No clue, but those who are not tied up on other conflicts are very few atm. Mainly Rielston(which has already informed to support Lyoness) and Talerium. I think rest of the Atamara is participating war at south, or here north already.

Not sure how ML & Silnaria war is going, ML has made good progress on it and recently more Silnaria lands were moved under banners of Tara.

Southern war has been also quite silent recently, hopefully it will continue or Darka indeed might get some serious heat on her... Rielston and Lyoness we hopefully can handle :)

If something, this conflict sure liven up things, atleast here in Darka we have gotten few new players... It was about the time, trend was losing few every week.

-jaune

Quote from: jaune on January 13, 2014, 03:50:13 PM
I'm quite sure CE's tone would have been diffrent if borders  A lot threats to bring whole Atamara upon Darka was thrown from Lyoness... bluff?

Whole Atamara? Who said that? The CE, yeah, but even the official word (not a region lord, however rightfully pissed off his character was) on that was a "You're really giving me no choice here..." phrasing. I really dragged my heels to bring that out as an actual threat. Saying they're willing to play by our rules is hardly a threat; it became that only later when it became obvious Darka wasn't making suggestions, but demands.

There was few, if i remember right Queenie, but it could had been that other Himoura too who said all realms will jump on us.

And we did make suggestions :D But those were ignored... I had to choose, burn Lyoness, or let CE burn Darka... not too hard decision for King of Darka.

That explains a lot.

Now you're putting words in Raziel's mouth.

Quote from: jaune on January 13, 2014, 09:27:06 PM
There was few, if i remember right Queenie, but it could had been that other Himoura too who said all realms will jump on us.

And we did make suggestions :D But those were ignored... I had to choose, burn Lyoness, or let CE burn Darka... not too hard decision for King of Darka.

If you don't mind me asking, what were those suggestions?

Doesn't this theoretically mean that Lyonesse can start TOing Darkan regions (only possible with active League support, obviously)? And wouldn't that put Darka in a far, far more dangerous position now than they were in when all the League could do was loot their regions into the ground, but not permanently remove them from Darkan control? Sure, militarily Lyonesse contributes next to nothing to the war against Darka. But strategically, their ability to actually TO Darkan regions could be a death blow for Darka, assuming I'm not missing something important.

Quote from: Geronus on January 13, 2014, 10:36:06 PM
Doesn't this theoretically mean that Lyonesse can start TOing Darkan regions (only possible with active League support, obviously)? And wouldn't that put Darka in a far, far more dangerous position now than they were in when all the League could do was loot their regions into the ground, but not permanently remove them from Darkan control? Sure, militarily Lyonesse contributes next to nothing to the war against Darka. But strategically, their ability to actually TO Darkan regions could be a death blow for Darka, assuming I'm not missing something important.

I feel like Darka didn't consider it much when they went to war with Lyonesse. Really I don't think Darka has been thinking much this entire war because they just keep doing whatever CE wants them to do. CE wants to keep attacking Darka to eventually destroy Darka's gold reserves and their regions? Darka. CE wants to gain allies? Darka takes every change they can to piss off every other realm AFAIK.

It makes me laugh to when Jaune says Lyonesse enforced their treaty. Lyonesse didn't enforce a thing, Darka is the one who went to war with Lyonesse.

Also, as was pointed out to me early on: Nobody but Lyonesse signed the treaty. Can't technically be enforced if nobody's signed it. Passage rights can, and would have been (insofar as our tiny army can stand up to 30k CS from either side).

But yes, you're right, it does mean Lyonesse could TO lands if we want to. Same for Darka in reverse, though.

Quote from: Eirikr on January 14, 2014, 12:07:30 AM
Also, as was pointed out to me early on: Nobody but Lyonesse signed the treaty. Can't technically be enforced if nobody's signed it. Passage rights can, and would have been (insofar as our tiny army can stand up to 30k CS from either side).

But yes, you're right, it does mean Lyonesse could TO lands if we want to. Same for Darka in reverse, though.

Let me clear up a possible misunderstanding. Cagil did sign the treaty. Raziella wrote up the treaty, showed it (copy/paste text) to Cagil, but I couldn't find the propose button. Turns out that you can't propose to foreign ambassadors in your realm, but if you're an ambassador in another realm's lands you can propose treaties to them. Anyway, CE's ambassador ended up proposing it to Raziella and she signed their copy. So now Lyonesse has two copies (different names) of same treaty, one with signatures, one without. I just withdrew that signature trying to find a way to delete that treaty, but turns out there is no delete functionality coded.

Quote from: Vita on January 14, 2014, 12:40:26 AM
Let me clear up a possible misunderstanding. Cagil did sign the treaty. Raziella wrote up the treaty, showed it (copy/paste text) to Cagil, but I couldn't find the propose button. Turns out that you can't propose to foreign ambassadors in your realm, but if you're an ambassador in another realm's lands you can propose treaties to them. Anyway, CE's ambassador ended up proposing it to Raziella and she signed their copy. So now Lyonesse has two copies (different names) of same treaty, one with signatures, one without. I just withdrew that signature trying to find a way to delete that treaty, but turns out there is no delete functionality coded.

I may be spouting nonsense again, but I believe a treaty with no signatories is automatically deleted. (And yes, you can withdraw from your own.)

I only saw one treaty when I looked before the incident, though.

Sir Glitterhoof is about to strike fear into hearts of all Darkans! Muahahahahahaha cough cough ahahahahanna!

Oh boy.

Well, we will see if this was the final mistake of Darka :)

But you are right on that, CE is very clever with its politics and with tricks like this it is forcing people to join on its side. Rielston were promised to have BoM, Lyoness were promised to have Massilion?

-Jaune

Quote from: jaune on January 14, 2014, 05:18:23 AM
Oh boy.

Well, we will see if this was the final mistake of Darka :)

But you are right on that, CE is very clever with its politics and with tricks like this it is forcing people to join on its side. Rielston were promised to have BoM, Lyoness were promised to have Massilion?

-Jaune

CE didn't bring us onto their side. You pushed us there.

Eh, when you said that you will take their side unless i accept treaty which gives them advantage, and refuse to negotiate unless we leave your lands and let CE enter to it? Ignoring my comments on the treaty?

You chose your side when you gave advantage to our enemy. I cant have neighbour who i cant trust, who doesnt care about the wellfare of Darka.

-Jaune

I think we've rotated on the circular logic long enough. It's clear either the two sides of this can't agree (on facts, for the record) or don't understand... or just don't want to.

At the end of the day, all that really matters is that Darka declared war. That, in itself, assured that we would join the Caglian Empire. You could have stalled, you could have tried talking to someone other than the Queen (especially if it wasn't working), you could have done any number of things... but you didn't. Some may have (and did, at first) objected to fighting Darka... as soon as you declared war, you made that decision for us.

As for the trust bit, who snuck into an allied realm and turned his troops to murderous? And yes, if you ask one person for permission and they don't respond or share that information, it's still sneaking. May as well call a bank after it closes and say "But I asked if anyone was in!" when they arrest you in the vault.

Eh, thats how things had been during whole existence of Lyoness. We had informed ruler that we are coming. We had always the region we are(if enemy around) to move away, and if militia or inactive or what ever reason there was Lyoness troops, we have wiped them out with murderous settings to being able to fight with CE.

Time frame just dont allow long chit chat, cause CE was already on your border, we had to move in to stop them before they get in our lands.

I was told that CE had permission to march on your lands, and we are not. If i had ordered my army out from your lands, CE would have been able to loot the crap out from us. And while i tried to keep up negotiations, i was told no negotiating as long as our troops are on Lyoness lands, and your Queen lowered relations. It was clear to me, that you had chosen CE at this point and Lyoness must be burnt for the sake of Darka.

No one ever said "Accept the Treaty or we'll join CE."

Joining CE's side was only mentioned after you ordered your troops to murderous and attacked ours. We asked you to leave our lands, stating that fighting battles on our lands was unacceptable. That is not unreasonable.

Yes it is unreasonable(for Darka) when you also told me that CE had permission to use your lands and we are not. And this wont be discussed until we are out of your lands. It was too much asked from Darka.

Lyoness is there only because of good will of Darka & CE... and because Lyoness were neutral to both sides. When it stopped to be neutral, its existense to us is a threat which need to be removed one way or another.

-jaune

Quote from: Penchant on January 13, 2014, 10:53:48 PM
CE wants to gain allies?

How is that?

Last time is checked CE is allied with 8 of 12 Realms in Atamara. Or do you think that those colonies created on Eston's soil was for free?

KK was a fool if he thought that would never happens, i bet my money hands down for  that to happen, and i won!



Peace!

Quote from: Sonya on January 14, 2014, 02:33:59 PM


KK was a fool if he thought that would never happens, i bet my money hands down for  that to happen, and i won!



Peace!

Yes, several people said "Destroy/Conquer Eston remainings!" when they surrendered... but i felt pity to them. Again, i should have listen my advisors... thats why they are there, and believe me i have heard some "I told ya!" sayings lately :D

Quote from: jaune on January 14, 2014, 09:22:07 AM
I was told that CE had permission to march on your lands, and we are not.

As I've said what seems like 20 times now: You would have been given permission and CE been told to wait if you had informed me. That was outlined in the treaty... which, even if you didn't sign, should have been a major hint that letting Ravendon know would have been the correct move. CE contacted myself and, not knowing Darka was already in our lands, I gave them permission.

You even said you got no response from Queen Raziella... so how would that ever equate to permission? I'm really don't understand why that is so hard to grasp.

Plus, as you just said, it apparently wasn't the first time you came and just slaughtered a friendly realm's militia... When the CE pointed this out the first time, I gave Darka a pass on it because I thought it was an accident or caused by a larger fight. Doesn't sound so friendly now.

I will admit to not giving you an option while still in our lands. Why should I? You had no right being there to my character's knowledge. It was extremely short sighted of Darka to take "not while you're still in our lands" and change it to "ever".

We did not had ANY problems with similar incidents before. We had gone with murderous settings ALWAYS when there was Lyoness/Rielston/Eston militia/troops which didnt respond our requests to leave.

And like said, Lyoness had already taken side when they proposed treaty which would give advantage to the enemy. Everytime i tried to discuss about this treaty, i was replied with silent, or "You really need sign this!".

It was Lyoness decision to become NOT neutral on this war. And it was Darkan decision to act for it. I did try to talk with it, but Queen didnt reply much, but that silly Himoura and Lord of Melias sent threats.

Like you said, you had given permission to CE march on their lands, but denied it from us. That is how it was told to me... and Lyoness kept repeating how fair their treaty was.

In my opinion, we both had good reason to act like we did. You wanted us out from your lands, and we wanted to fight CE on your lands like we had done few years already. You valued your indepense over the relations with Darka. Now we will see how this end... The Winner will write the history :)

This is a perfect example of how a situation involving multiple intelligent, rational, people can result in a situation falling apart and leading to war. Everyone thinks that what they are doing is the right thing to do, and makes perfect sense. The final outcome is one that no one really wanted. Everyone thinks that everyone else wanted it to go there, and that they deliberately manipulated the situation to make it happen.

Quote from: jaune on January 14, 2014, 04:40:17 PM
We did not had ANY problems with similar incidents before. We had gone with murderous settings ALWAYS when there was Lyoness/Rielston/Eston militia/troops which didnt respond our requests to leave.

And like said, Lyoness had already taken side when they proposed treaty which would give advantage to the enemy. Everytime i tried to discuss about this treaty, i was replied with silent, or "You really need sign this!".

It was Lyoness decision to become NOT neutral on this war. And it was Darkan decision to act for it. I did try to talk with it, but Queen didnt reply much, but that silly Himoura and Lord of Melias sent threats.

Like you said, you had given permission to CE march on their lands, but denied it from us. That is how it was told to me... and Lyoness kept repeating how fair their treaty was.

In my opinion, we both had good reason to act like we did. You wanted us out from your lands, and we wanted to fight CE on your lands like we had done few years already. You valued your indepense over the relations with Darka. Now we will see how this end... The Winner will write the history :)

You want to talk about threats?

"Revoke CE's passage rights or we destroy Hawthorne."

That is a threat.

"Your passage rights are revoked until further notice, seeing as you've just set to murderous and attacked a bunch of our men while at peace for no reason."

Is a reasonable response, and yes we're aware that you've come through our lands murdering everything in sight. This is why the whole treaty was created in the first place. It was not meant to be all nice and fuzzy for everyone, and the consequences of ignoring it should have been obvious. If you recall, I threatened KK once, and that was after Darka instantly declared war after we lowered relation to neutral in response to you attacking our troops in cold blood, and that was to merely repay Darka in spades for whatever damage they did.

Of course, its obvious why Darka has no more friends on Atamara, they blatantly ignore the basest forms of diplomacy, and pursue an active campaign of murder and disregard for anyone not bending over backwards for them. CE is allied with almost everyone?  I wonder why that is? Oh, I'll explain it: they respect other realms, engage in pleasantries, and are generally much nicer to work with than Darka, because if you pursue something they don't necessarily agree with, their response isn't "switch to murderous and burn everything we can touch"

Quote from: jaune on January 14, 2014, 04:40:17 PM
We did not had ANY problems with similar incidents before. We had gone with murderous settings ALWAYS when there was Lyoness/Rielston/Eston militia/troops which didnt respond our requests to leave.

And like said, Lyoness had already taken side when they proposed treaty which would give advantage to the enemy. Everytime i tried to discuss about this treaty, i was replied with silent, or "You really need sign this!".

It was Lyoness decision to become NOT neutral on this war. And it was Darkan decision to act for it. I did try to talk with it, but Queen didnt reply much, but that silly Himoura and Lord of Melias sent threats.

Like you said, you had given permission to CE march on their lands, but denied it from us. That is how it was told to me... and Lyoness kept repeating how fair their treaty was.

In my opinion, we both had good reason to act like we did. You wanted us out from your lands, and we wanted to fight CE on your lands like we had done few years already. You valued your indepense over the relations with Darka. Now we will see how this end... The Winner will write the history :)

How do you see attacking a realm's troops in their realm because they didn't follow your orders as acceptable diplomacy?

"You [Lyonesse] value your independence more than you value Darka so we have to attack you" is fair relations?

I thought Darka didn't like CE because CE is/was a bully?

Quote from: Penchant on January 14, 2014, 11:24:32 PM
"You [Lyonesse] value your independence more than you value Darka so we have to attack you" is fair relations?

Using Penchant's quote because I'm too lazy to format things myself...

Shouldn't every realm value its own independence more than it values another realm? Maybe I'm crazy here and people really do want to be subjugated by other realms?

CE...Where the cookies are more delcious

Quote from: Stabbity on January 14, 2014, 10:26:38 PM
You want to talk about threats?

"Revoke CE's passage rights or we destroy Hawthorne."

That is a threat.

"Your passage rights are revoked until further notice, seeing as you've just set to murderous and attacked a bunch of our men while at peace for no reason."

Is a reasonable response, and yes we're aware that you've come through our lands murdering everything in sight. This is why the whole treaty was created in the first place. It was not meant to be all nice and fuzzy for everyone, and the consequences of ignoring it should have been obvious. If you recall, I threatened KK once, and that was after Darka instantly declared war after we lowered relation to neutral in response to you attacking our troops in cold blood, and that was to merely repay Darka in spades for whatever damage they did.

Of course, its obvious why Darka has no more friends on Atamara, they blatantly ignore the basest forms of diplomacy, and pursue an active campaign of murder and disregard for anyone not bending over backwards for them. CE is allied with almost everyone?  I wonder why that is? Oh, I'll explain it: they respect other realms, engage in pleasantries, and are generally much nicer to work with than Darka, because if you pursue something they don't necessarily agree with, their response isn't "switch to murderous and burn everything we can touch"

I'm too soft on diplomacy, they said. I don't stand up for the Empire, they said. I've made no diplomatic inroads, they said.  8)

Quote from: Blue Star on January 15, 2014, 05:15:58 AM
CE...Where the cookies are more delcious

CE as Cookie Empire?!
I will loot them away then! :D

Also, please, this is a classic diplomacy fail.
Lyonesse can't understand that it lays besides a hegemonic realm and should hold close relations with it than with other hegemonic realms who are in no range to send adequate help in time...reminds me of the Cuba crisis.

So the question that remains is, will CE save you on the fields of diplomacy so that Darka won't get bigger...I doubt so.

Quote from: Blue Star on January 15, 2014, 05:15:58 AM
CE...Where the cookies are more delcious

Of course...they are made on Craigmore.... my old favorite cookies.  :'(

Quote from: Atanamir on January 15, 2014, 11:46:50 AM
CE as Cookie Empire?!
I will loot them away then! :D

Also, please, this is a classic diplomacy fail.
Lyonesse can't understand that it lays besides a hegemonic realm and should hold close relations with it than with other hegemonic realms who are in no range to send adequate help in time...reminds me of the Cuba crisis.

So the question that remains is, will CE save you on the fields of diplomacy so that Darka won't get bigger...I doubt so.

I want to reply, but I can't because it could have IC implications. :(

It is a classic diplomacy fail for a number of reasons, though... You cite a strategy there, but there's also the process fail in the miscommunication bit. Those with the information weren't moving it (the reason is irrelevant) and those without the information didn't know to get it because they thought they had the latest information... which was now out of date. (Examples: Ravendon thought the treaty negotiations were still ongoing or had reached agreement. Raud thought Darka had permission to enter.)

Banker versus Banker combat! Earlier today Raziel IV showed just whose pen was mightier when.he took Darka's Royal treasurer prisoner in single unit combat.

Poor Rachel, first she was wounded for week, and next turn she got imprisoned :D

-Jaune

What are treaties?

Lyoness vs. Darka 1 - 6
CE tried to save Lyoness and attacked Melias, got spanked, Darka 1
Melias burnt Darka 2
Saradic burnt and lost to Rielston and then rogue, Darka 3
Banker vs. Banker, Himoura caught Rachel pants down, Lyoness 1
Slantrax battle, Lyoness and Rielston attacked and lost, Darka 4
Slantrax TOed by Darka, Darka 5
Hawthorne joined Darka, Darka 6 and last round of that war is about to start...
There might be halftime entertainment served by Cagilan Empire, but soon enough we are back to this spinoff war.

-Jaune

Quote from: jaune on January 18, 2014, 09:08:31 PM
Lyoness vs. Darka 1 - 6
CE tried to save Lyoness and attacked Melias, got spanked, Darka 1
Melias burnt Darka 2
Saradic burnt and lost to Rielston and then rogue, Darka 3
Banker vs. Banker, Himoura caught Rachel pants down, Lyoness 1
Slantrax battle, Lyoness and Rielston attacked and lost, Darka 4
Slantrax TOed by Darka, Darka 5
Hawthorne joined Darka, Darka 6 and last round of that war is about to start...
There might be halftime entertainment served by Cagilan Empire, but soon enough we are back to this spinoff war.

-Jaune

Apparently, I'm not allowed to leave for a weekend. :( 3rd wound in about two weeks.

Quote from: jaune on January 18, 2014, 09:08:31 PM
Lyoness vs. Darka 1 - 6
CE tried to save Lyoness and attacked Melias, got spanked, Darka 1
Melias burnt Darka 2
Saradic burnt and lost to Rielston and then rogue, Darka 3
Banker vs. Banker, Himoura caught Rachel pants down, Lyoness 1
Slantrax battle, Lyoness and Rielston attacked and lost, Darka 4
Slantrax TOed by Darka, Darka 5
Hawthorne joined Darka, Darka 6 and last round of that war is about to start...
There might be halftime entertainment served by Cagilan Empire, but soon enough we are back to this spinoff war.

-Jaune

Halftime? This was just the first possession. Darka scored a touchdown, but not without their star running back getting clobbered by Lyonesse's all star Linebacker. Darka kicks off, and it is now Lyonesse and Company's ball.

Quote from: jaune on January 18, 2014, 09:08:31 PM

Banker vs. Banker, Himoura caught Rachel pants down, Lyoness 1

-Jaune

This one made me spill my coffee!


peace!

In recent news, Sir Glitterhoof, the notorious Horse Knight of Lyonesse has managed to escape Darkan prison. This event has caused an epidemic of split sides, and the terrible plague known as "the giggles". Darkan shameful surrender expected soon.

Yes, we will surrender as soon as those regions around Hawthorne has been TOed. Lyoness won, lets end this war and be friends again :)

-Jaune

Quote from: jaune on January 21, 2014, 08:20:57 AM
Yes, we will surrender as soon as those regions around Hawthorne has been TOed. Lyoness won, lets end this war and be friends again :)

-Jaune

Well if you can't even keep a horse in prison, I think we'll be okay. :p

Quote from: Stabbity on January 21, 2014, 06:38:37 AM
In recent news, Sir Glitterhoof, the notorious Horse Knight of Lyonesse has managed to escape Darkan prison. This event has caused an epidemic of split sides, and the terrible plague known as "the giggles". Darkan shameful surrender expected soon.

New Prisoner   (1 hour, 41 minutes ago)
Patrols in Hawthorne have captured the enemy noble Sir Glitterhoof Himoura, Knight of Loratil. He is now on his way into your dungeons.

Welcome back :) Your cell is still warm...

Quote from: jaune on January 22, 2014, 07:48:46 AM
New Prisoner   (1 hour, 41 minutes ago)
Patrols in Hawthorne have captured the enemy noble Sir Glitterhoof Himoura, Knight of Loratil. He is now on his way into your dungeons.

Maybe it's time for "Sir Glitterhoof" to become a gelding....

Quote from: jaune on January 22, 2014, 07:48:46 AM
New Prisoner   (1 hour, 41 minutes ago)
Patrols in Hawthorne have captured the enemy noble Sir Glitterhoof Himoura, Knight of Loratil. He is now on his way into your dungeons.

Welcome back :) Your cell is still warm...

I trust the gigantic horse size hole is still there too.

Read this...

Quote from: Stabbity on January 22, 2014, 04:28:37 PM
I trust the gigantic horse size hole is still there too.

thought he was replying to this....

Quote from: Indirik on January 22, 2014, 01:07:17 PM
Maybe it's time for "Sir Glitterhoof" to become a gelding....

Lolz were had.

Yay, some intresting events going again. Talerium eitherway betrayed Darka and let CE use its lands for attacking Darka, or CE ignored treaty and marched through Talerium... It will put Talerium in tricky position.. yet another war for Darka?

CE plays dirty and forces realms to cut of ties with Darka?

-Jaune

Or Darka receiving its just consequences for aggressive diplomacy and treason?

Darka is aggressive when it becomes to its survival :) Enemy as neighbour is no no. Neighbour must be friendly.

Quote from: jaune on February 20, 2014, 05:49:56 AM
Darka is aggressive when it becomes to its survival :) Enemy as neighbour is no no. Neighbour must be friendly.

Forced friendship is a quick path to enemy neighbors. :)

Its not forced friendship. It is friendship or it is not friendship. Simple as that.

-Jaune

Quote from: jaune on February 20, 2014, 06:37:33 AM
Its not forced friendship. It is friendship or it is not friendship. Simple as that.

-Jaune

Where not friendship means war, or in other words it is forced friendship.

I like how I don't even need to reply to clarify myself anymore.  8)

Darka treason? From what I remember it was Lyonesse/CE breaking the first treaty, leading to the war with Lyonesse. As well, the treason (if you mean the change of allegiance) was commited by a Lyonesse-Duke. So truly, the only traitors are lyonesse, no?

Quote from: Noldorin on February 20, 2014, 08:44:34 AM
Darka treason? From what I remember it was Lyonesse/CE breaking the first treaty, leading to the war with Lyonesse. As well, the treason (if you mean the change of allegiance) was commited by a Lyonesse-Duke. So truly, the only traitors are lyonesse, no?

The Duke was the subject, but while you mention it, which treaty are we saying Lyonesse / CE broke? The Treaty of Hawthorne was repeatedly "broken" by Darka... The excuse has been that Darka never signed it... but freely chooses bits that suit them. The ceasefire? Yeah, okay, maybe... Except one side had agreed to a treaty and gained passage rights. Does it become a permanent ceasefire because Darka and Lyonesse can't agree to passage rights? No nation real or imaginary would accept that... Eventually, you're going to let the other guy go for it anyway. Of course, I freely admit I jumped the gun; I thought everything was solved already. Darka then made the choice to skip any attempt at fixing the problem. (The problem not being the treaty itself, but the misunderstanding of the current status.)

Besides, we could've just taken a page out of Darka's book and said "Well, we never signed anything." It's taken me this full month and a half (or so) to realize we didn't play that card at all.

Treaty of Hawthorne was treaty between CE/Lyoness/Eston/Rielston/Talerium, Darka had nothing to do with it. Lyoness broke that treaty by letting Darka use their lands :)

And I tried to negotiate with Lyoness, but Lyoness refused negotiate as long as our army were on their lands and lowered relations to neutral, it was clear sign that peace between us was over. You had promised free passage to Cagilan Empire and wanted Darka out from your lands. It was too much. Lyoness had survive and even doing good just because they had been good for Darka. If they had tried to enforce treaty of Hawthorne and block our passage, they would have dead long time ago. It was essential for both realms survival that we co-operate, suddenly Lyoness stopped to co-operate, vice versa, they started to co-operate with the enemy. Lyoness had to be taken care, they had become threat to Darkan survival. Which is sad, i really thought we both had similar view that CE is the Devil, after all it had humiliated your "mother" realm badly... but then again, new leadership of Lyoness had no clue how Lyoness was created. Lyoness were taken over by former Minas Ithilians. Which i didnt mind back then, we had good going from beginning, until you started to toy around with CE and ignore us.

Yay! More Darka-Lyonesse arguments!

Jaune,

Tell me this, what should Lyonesse have done that would have been friendly to Darka and not idiotic for Lyonesse?

They should have not done anything as long as they were center of this war. So basicly continue what they had done their whole existence, they did really well.


Edit: Oh, or close up their borders totally from CE & Darka, that would have tested out CE's words about respect of independent realms :)
-Jaune

Quote from: Penchant on February 20, 2014, 09:02:02 PM
Jaune,

Tell me this, what should Lyonesse have done that would have been friendly to Darka and not idiotic for Lyonesse?

Declare war on CE?

Quote from: Sonya on February 20, 2014, 09:40:32 PM
Declare war on CE?

and not idiotic for Lyonesse?

Lyonesse is in a difficult position. Not helped by it's members.

I don't think Darka wanted to fight them, but they really had no choice. They should have remained neutral; maby even helped CE or Darka. Open war will kill them; CE must refit and then Darka will finish then off.

BTW when did Lyonesse become a Theocratic realm?

Quote from: jaune on February 20, 2014, 11:06:58 AM
And I tried to negotiate with Lyoness, but Lyoness refused negotiate as long as our army were on their lands and lowered relations to neutral, it was clear sign that peace between us was over. You had promised free passage to Cagilan Empire and wanted Darka out from your lands. It was too much. Lyoness had survive and even doing good just because they had been good for Darka. If they had tried to enforce treaty of Hawthorne and block our passage, they would have dead long time ago. It was essential for both realms survival that we co-operate, suddenly Lyoness stopped to co-operate, vice versa, they started to co-operate with the enemy. Lyoness had to be taken care, they had become threat to Darkan survival. Which is sad, i really thought we both had similar view that CE is the Devil, after all it had humiliated your "mother" realm badly... but then again, new leadership of Lyoness had no clue how Lyoness was created. Lyoness were taken over by former Minas Ithilians. Which i didnt mind back then, we had good going from beginning, until you started to toy around with CE and ignore us.

Sorry, I have to respond to this. Jaune, can you please stop repeating the same point? We've moved past that ages ago. I've been intentionally wording my responses to accept that point and ask something new. Let me simplify what I had said in my last post:

YES, Darka was stuck in negotiation. YES, it was probably Queen Raziella's fault (I can't say, I wasn't part of the negotiation). NO, that does not mean we suddenly pledged our undying allegiance to the CE.

What you don't seem to understand (incapable or unwilling, who really cares) is that you could have backed off, taken the black eye, and solved it before the CE came back again... leaving the door open for an alliance with Lyonesse. Instead, you chose to tell Lyonesse it wasn't allowed to have its own needs (we lowered relations after you threatened to murder everyone in the region), told us we were now allies of the CE, and cut off our legs (or whatever body parts help this analogy).

And then, after all that, you want to complain that it's Darka vs. the world? It's one or the other, buddy. You don't stab the guy next to you and expect to have a bunch of new friendships.

Now to catch up with all those posts in between... My original call was for fully locked borders. If I recall correctly, both sides wanted to negotiate, so it's not really a fair point. Enri doesn't comment here much anymore, but if he did, he'd tell you how pissed he was at Ravendon... He even tried to claim that because Lyonesse had let Darka through 6000 times during the supposed term of the Treaty of Hawthorne, the no passage rights term would just begin right then. It's sad to know now that I shouldn't have bothered; I thought I'd made a major win for Darka.

I also don't know if you've ever tried doing absolutely nothing... Even if you're good at it, which I would agree Lyonesse was (Ravendon even sent a letter today saying that...), it's not exactly fun. In fact, we'd have likely died one of those slow, painful, absentee realm deaths. Our members were going to be a problem on either extreme: Massive boredom or interesting chaotic risks. On an OOC level, I'd hope that choice is obvious.

Lyonesse became a Theocratic realm when we lost Hawthorne. Sale was made a Theocratic Duchy when Ravendon took the Duke title, though I didn't get a say... On an OOC level, I've just rolled with it because I've never really paid attention to religion in this game. Had to give it a shot once. Raziella's the primary driver there, though it did get interesting when the Darkanism channel erupted.

It's funny how Juane is winning in this conversation :D ;D he keeps repeating himself and people keep respond like it will change his mind.

I mean what was Lyonese thinking? I mean look at the Sand people the well they umm... sit in the sand Lyonese should have learned from them. tsk tsk. That's what happens when you let Himouras in your realm on AT first Coria now Lyonese... some might begin saying they are bad luck or worse cursed.

Hides ::)

Quote from: jaune on February 20, 2014, 09:37:12 PM
They should have not done anything as long as they were center of this war. So basicly continue what they had done their whole existence, they did really well.


Edit: Oh, or close up their borders totally from CE & Darka, that would have tested out CE's words about respect of independent realms :)
-Jaune

While the second option is not completely a dumb idea for Lyonesse as there is a tiny chance CE would have considered it, you certainly show you never wanted Lyonesse as an ally/friend. You don't want friendship, you want slaves. Friends help each other out aka its a two way street. Darka just wants help while not giving a !@#$ about the other realm. Darka was slowly destroying Lyonesse because they never cared about Lyonesse.

"We are destroying your regions by having massive battles there and killing your militia and army. What do you mean you don't think we are nice?" "We just attacked your realm but why are you lowering relations with us and asking us to leave?"

It would have been different if Darka worked with Lyonesse to minimize the amount of regions they had battles in and paid Lyonesse for the damages they were causing, but Darka was never interested in friendship only slaves.

As well, to the idea of Lyonesse shutting everyone else out, while there is a tiny chance CE would consider it, you know thats a  BS suggestion because you would never let a realm stop you from waging war against another realm completely. If Eston in its original form completely blocked you off from attacking CE when this war was offensive by Darka, you can't tell me you would have been fine with Eston not allowing you to wage war against CE.

Quote from: Blue Star on February 21, 2014, 05:26:33 AM
It's funny how Juane is winning in this conversation :D ;D he keeps repeating himself and people keep respond like it will change his mind.

I mean what was Lyonese thinking? I mean look at the Sand people the well they umm... sit in the sand Lyonese should have learned from them. tsk tsk. That's what happens when you let Himouras in your realm on AT first Coria now Lyonese... some might begin saying they are bad luck or worse cursed.

Hides ::)

Seriously. WTF? You are really promoting the idea that it'd be better to have been a boring, silent realm that did nothing, has more game mechanic reports than actual player messages etc. than to actually say...play the game of battlemaster? I'd take the path of doom and destruction every day before death by apathy, but by god, that wasn't the intention either.

I find Erikr's previous post to be a fair analysis of the situation and I'm likely to be just as repetitive in the following sentences. Darka acts like there was no choice and its all Lyonesse's fault, but let's not forget that every relationship requires action by both parties. Darka chose to attack Lyonesse murderously. Darka chose to persuade a capital margrave to betray his realm (how interesting that its always Atanamir's character convincing others to betray their realms). Darka chose to ignore a travel treaty's discussion until the last moment when they refused to sign. Darka chose to trespass into Lyonesse. Darka chose to threaten lords within their own region to gtfo or else. Lyonesse may have been 'stupid' for not cowardly submitting, but Darka is by not means innocent - their actions led to this as much as Lyonesse's refusal to roll over.

You know what else is interesting? Gian left because he wanted some 'continental balance', ie this whole CE is the devil and should be fought idea. The *same* lord who was attacked by Darka murderously, lost his region etc. wanted to join Darka and fight CE because 'continental balance'. How does that make *any* sense?

[/rant (mods feel free to edit if my words were too heated)]

I did not trust Lyoness anymore. Darka was better without Lyoness. I know OOC wise it was !@#$ty situation, but your relam were born by !@#$ty situation, none of us expected this last this long, but it keeps going.

I considered Lyoness future friend, but as long as that war was going and they were not intrested to join our side, i saw them as surrendered Eston province which were battleground. As soon as they started to show signs that they refuse to be that, i started to be bit worried, but same time they showed some intrest to try help out to build peace between CE & Darka, which Enri(i think in purpose, like in this recent Talerium case) blew it off.

The second Lyoness Queen said she wont negotiate unless we pull out from their lands, it was clear to me that Lyoness is no more friendly to Darka and we would be better without them.

Quote from: jaune on February 21, 2014, 07:15:14 AM
I did not trust Lyoness anymore. Darka was better without Lyoness. I know OOC wise it was !@#$ty situation, but your relam were born by !@#$ty situation, none of us expected this last this long, but it keeps going.

I considered Lyoness future friend, but as long as that war was going and they were not intrested to join our side, i saw them as surrendered Eston province which were battleground. As soon as they started to show signs that they refuse to be that, i started to be bit worried, but same time they showed some intrest to try help out to build peace between CE & Darka, which Enri(i think in purpose, like in this recent Talerium case) blew it off.

The second Lyoness Queen said she wont negotiate unless we pull out from their lands, it was clear to me that Lyoness is no more friendly to Darka and we would be better without them.

A straight answer at last. I shall shorten for the sake of brevity "Fight for Darka or die."

Isn't this the EXACT behavior Darka has been crying about CE supposedly exhibiting?

I didnt expect you to fight for us, i expected you to swallow your loss and wait the war to be over.

Quote from: jaune on February 21, 2014, 07:36:24 AM
I didnt expect you to fight for us, i expected you to swallow your loss and wait the war to be over.

You expected us to fight for you, or you would steal our cities. Lyonesse will not wait, and when the war is over, you will be far humbler.

Quote from: Blue Star on February 21, 2014, 05:26:33 AM
I mean what was Lyonese thinking? I mean look at the Sand people the well they umm... sit in the sand Lyonese should have learned from them. tsk tsk. That's what happens when you let Himouras in your realm on AT first Coria now Lyonese... some might begin saying they are bad luck or worse cursed.

Since someone already gave the angry answer, I'll just respond to the technical bit: I was told directly and with no uncertainty that Lyonesse would never get the same treatment as Talerium no matter what we did. Even if we sat on our hands, neither Darka nor the CE respected us enough to just let it be... and also because they hate eachother that much. Both sides would have been pissed if there was no longer a path through. That was part of the intent of doing the turns for passage rights... One could go and attack the other without fighting in Lyonesse. Theoretically, it could have just been limited to a single path, kinda like how Cantril was used for so long.

I made alllllll the relevant points of "Well, why aren't we allowed to be as equally neutral as Talerium?" or "Would we ever be able to earn such neutrality?" and even "Talerium's at least part of the League, why can't they make a sacrifice for their brothers and allow fighting in Nazamroth instead of stepping all over a third party?" I mean, Nazamroth is still a waste from the first part of the Neverending War and perfectly positioned... so why not?

I guess someone always has to be the third rate citizen... Or maybe I just need to stop putting myself in central realms. (Worked out okay with Perdan!)

Heh, Darka had suggested that close the borders.

Stabbity, I mean Lyoness had lost this war already. I didnt expect them to join it again and fight side by side with us, i expected them to live with their loss and wait this war to be over. But like said earlier, this has been ridiciously long war, i know it has been sucky times for Lyoness and Eston... I think big problem is also that Lyoness didnt have anybody(?) active who were there when Lyoness were created.

Quote from: jaune on February 21, 2014, 08:44:53 AM
Heh, Darka had suggested that close the borders.

Stabbity, I mean Lyoness had lost this war already. I didnt expect them to join it again and fight side by side with us, i expected them to live with their loss and wait this war to be over. But like said earlier, this has been ridiciously long war, i know it has been sucky times for Lyoness and Eston... I think big problem is also that Lyoness didnt have anybody(?) active who were there when Lyoness were created.

Eston lost. Lyoness was created from that loss, and Lyoness was not content to stand idly by while you destroyed our lands. Of course we're going to stand up against that, especially when we were working on a reasonable solution to this.

Quote from: Stabbity on February 21, 2014, 07:42:11 AM
You expected us to fight for you, or you would steal our cities. Lyonesse will not wait, and when the war is over, you will be far humbler.

In what letter did Darka expect you to fight for them? The last 20 posts in here you have all been whining that Darka wanted you as far away from the battlefields as possible.

Quote from: Stabbity on February 20, 2014, 09:43:58 PM
and not idiotic for Lyonesse?

Why suddenly change behavior?  8)  But well, personally, I would have said that having one regions in a bad shape due to a battle once per 1-2 weeks is better than allying with the enemy of your huge neighbor. But hey, perhaps it was not easy to see that Darka would get angry... You were all aware that Darka literally needed to fight CE in your region, otherwise it would be close to impossible to meet them head on. When you refuse Darka from doing so, what were they supposed to do?

Quote from: Penchant on February 20, 2014, 09:02:02 PM
Jaune,

Tell me this, what should Lyonesse have done that would have been friendly to Darka and not idiotic for Lyonesse?

Exact same as during the time leading up to the Lyonesse-Darka war? Would have saved you a duchy, at least.

Quote from: Noldorin on February 21, 2014, 08:53:29 AM
In what letter did Darka expect you to fight for them? The last 20 posts in here you have all been whining that Darka wanted you as far away from the battlefields as possible.

Hard to be as far away from the battlefields as possible WHEN THEY'RE IN YOUR OWN LANDS. Stupid point is stupid. Darka wanted to use Lyonesse to absorb all the damage of the war, when Lyonesse was not involved. Lyonesse began negotiations to resolve this peacefully. Darka marched in and used murderous settings in a region no Cagilan troops were present. That is an act of war.

QuoteWhy suddenly change behavior?  8)  But well, personally, I would have said that having one regions in a bad shape due to a battle once per 1-2 weeks is better than allying with the enemy of your huge neighbor. But hey, perhaps it was not easy to see that Darka would get angry... You were all aware that Darka literally needed to fight CE in your region, otherwise it would be close to impossible to meet them head on. When you refuse Darka from doing so, what were they supposed to do?

Say we're neighbors. We are amiable. Then one day I break into your house, rape your wife, murder children, and then blame you for it because you wouldn't let me barge through your house to use the bathroom and continue on through your house to use Jim at the end of the block's pool. That is what Darka did.

QuoteExact same as during the time leading up to the Lyonesse-Darka war? Would have saved you a duchy, at least.

The war isn't over yet.

Quote from: Stabbity on February 21, 2014, 09:03:42 AM
Hard to be as far away from the battlefields as possible WHEN THEY'RE IN YOUR OWN LANDS. Stupid point is stupid. Darka wanted to use Lyonesse to absorb all the damage of the war, when Lyonesse was not involved. Lyonesse began negotiations to resolve this peacefully. Darka marched in and used murderous settings in a region no Cagilan troops were present. That is an act of war.

Say we're neighbors. We are amiable. Then one day I break into your house, rape your wife, murder children, and then blame you for it because you wouldn't let me barge through your house to use the bathroom and continue on through your house to use Jim at the end of the block's pool. That is what Darka did.

The war isn't over yet.

They were not there at that exact turn perhaps, but were on the way in or out. Doesn't truly matter all that much. And the region was not used because of the tactical intersection, and to ensure that CE didnt loot. Just send in 2-3 bureaucrats and problem solved!

As for your analogy, its almost to retarded to answer upon. You knew what you were getting in to, and you lost like 1% of your army. But yeah, that's exactly the same thing as you said, duh.

Quote from: Stabbity on February 21, 2014, 08:47:25 AM
Eston lost. Lyoness was created from that loss, and Lyoness was not content to stand idly by while you destroyed our lands. Of course we're going to stand up against that, especially when we were working on a reasonable solution to this.

Well, you did. Now time will show how that worked for Lyoness. Atleast you are not bored anymore?

Quote from: Noldorin on February 21, 2014, 09:14:01 AM
They were not there at that exact turn perhaps, but were on the way in or out. Doesn't truly matter all that much. And the region was not used because of the tactical intersection, and to ensure that CE didnt loot. Just send in 2-3 bureaucrats and problem solved!

Dead wrong. CE was not in the region, had not been in the region, and was standing by away from the region out of respect for Lyonesse. If you're going to spout off, at least don't present blatant lies. In character is fine, but out of character?

QuoteAs for your analogy, its almost to retarded to answer upon. You knew what you were getting in to, and you lost like 1% of your army. But yeah, that's exactly the same thing as you said, duh.

Its dead on. Its precisely what Darka did. It marched troops against a peaceful nation and attacked them on their own soil because they're a nation of cowards who can't fathom fighting on their own land.

Also, keep it civilized. No need to flame.

Yeah, I don't get why we're even trying to connect Lyonesse to Eston. There's one, maybe two, ex-Estonites in Lyonesse; nobody else in Lyonesse has any reason to be upset that the CE humiliated Eston. It's not that we don't know how Lyonesse was formed (most of us watched the surrender happen in Coria, you know)... we just don't have a reason to care. As far as we're concerned, it wasn't really a bad thing.

Quote from: Noldorin on February 21, 2014, 08:53:29 AM
You were all aware that Darka literally needed to fight CE in your region, otherwise it would be close to impossible to meet them head on.

I've made this point a few times IC, but I don't know about OOC: Does Darka have nobody interested in strategic challenge? Are they only capable of forming a Big Ball of Death (that, if I recall, Tom has been trying to figure out how to change mechanically) and walking down a single path?

Sure, it's the easiest and most obvious way, but it's simply not true that it's the only way and therefore "needed". Both sides work around the Talerium issue every day. Either Darka was lazy or the relationship really didn't matter to them. (I won't explain my solution here since it could very well still matter.)

Quote from: Noldorin on February 21, 2014, 09:14:01 AM
They were not there at that exact turn perhaps, but were on the way in or out. Doesn't truly matter all that much.

They were on the way in and we were also coming back from a tour in Silnaria. Even if we weren't trying to stop you from fighting in our lands, Melias is the natural way back to Hawthorne. I haven't checked, but I think using Saradic is a longer trip; when your own realm's priorities (in this case, a war effort) is being hampered by a conflict you're supposed to be neutral in, something needs to change. It's like continuing to work at your cubicle while the trashcan is on fire.

Quote from: Noldorin on February 21, 2014, 09:14:01 AM
And the region was not used because of the tactical intersection, and to ensure that CE didnt loot. Just send in 2-3 bureaucrats and problem solved!

Is there a typo here? I'm not sure what point you were trying to make. It ensures the CE doesn't loot because it provides access to any region they could move to from Meneriel. I'd call that tactical. Do you mean to say you wanted to fight there because if the CE won in Darkan lands, they could use their remaining hours to loot before heading back for a refit? (Of course making Lyonesse the place to fight because the CE would just go home without looting.) Sorry we weren't willing to shelter you from normal consequences of war and tried to make you responsible for your own loss.

Quote from: Noldorin on February 21, 2014, 09:14:01 AM
As for your analogy, its almost to retarded to answer upon. You knew what you were getting in to, and you lost like 1% of your army. But yeah, that's exactly the same thing as you said, duh.

Overblown, yes. Invalid, no. I don't see why it matters how much of our army was lost... They were killed in our own realm in a conflict where we were declared as neutral. Let's use the house analogy again: That same neighbor still breaks into the house and threatens your family to not come into the hallway or he'll kill them... is that really any more innocent? Are we supposed to sit in the other room and reply cheerily: "Sure, Joe will be along for you to fight any second! We didn't need to use that hallway anyway! I'll see you again next week to threaten my family and commandeer a room of my house! Oh, and don't mind that flaming trashcan on your way out. We'll just continue to ignore it."

Quote from: Eirikr on February 21, 2014, 10:09:50 AM
Overblown, yes. Invalid, no. I don't see why it matters how much of our army was lost... They were killed in our own realm in a conflict where we were declared as neutral. Let's use the house analogy again: That same neighbor still breaks into the house and threatens your family to not come into the hallway or he'll kill them... is that really any more innocent? Are we supposed to sit in the other room and reply cheerily: "Sure, Joe will be along for you to fight any second! We didn't need to use that hallway anyway! I'll see you again next week to threaten my family and commandeer a room of my house! Oh, and don't mind that flaming trashcan on your way out. We'll just continue to ignore it."

+1

I suggest toning down the hostility in this thread, or it'll be locked.

I guess we have gone through this enough already. Both think they did right thing. And atleast i understand why Lyoness did what it did, not that i think it was good move... but still kind of understand.

More than that, i'm intrested how Talerium & Darka and Talerium & CE relations will evolve after CE marched through Talerium lands and is now looting Darka.

Quote from: Vita on February 21, 2014, 06:51:37 AM
Seriously. WTF? You are really promoting the idea that it'd be better to have been a boring, silent realm that did nothing, has more game mechanic reports than actual player messages etc. than to actually say...play the game of battlemaster? I'd take the path of doom and destruction every day before death by apathy, but by god, that wasn't the intention either.

I find Erikr's previous post to be a fair analysis of the situation and I'm likely to be just as repetitive in the following sentences. Darka acts like there was no choice and its all Lyonesse's fault, but let's not forget that every relationship requires action by both parties. Darka chose to attack Lyonesse murderously. Darka chose to persuade a capital margrave to betray his realm (how interesting that its always Atanamir's character convincing others to betray their realms). Darka chose to ignore a travel treaty's discussion until the last moment when they refused to sign. Darka chose to trespass into Lyonesse. Darka chose to threaten lords within their own region to gtfo or else. Lyonesse may have been 'stupid' for not cowardly submitting, but Darka is by not means innocent - their actions led to this as much as Lyonesse's refusal to roll over.

You know what else is interesting? Gian left because he wanted some 'continental balance', ie this whole CE is the devil and should be fought idea. The *same* lord who was attacked by Darka murderously, lost his region etc. wanted to join Darka and fight CE because 'continental balance'. How does that make *any* sense?

[/rant (mods feel free to edit if my words were too heated)]

Someones upset? Well sarcasm is hard to convey over forums.

Think Lyonese nobles need to chill and Jaune aren't you retiring? taking it to serious, its a game you play the cards you are dealt you can fold or you can play. No matter what learn to enjoy the game.

I think Lyonese personally should of went to war with CE it would of been a better choice. I mean destruction is not wrong, but going down with the Ship does get you wet and makes it easier for the sharks to get you.

Quote from: Blue Star on February 22, 2014, 02:50:06 AM

Someones upset? Well sarcasm is hard to convey over forums.

Think Lyonese nobles need to chill and Jaune aren't you retiring? taking it to serious, its a game you play the cards you are dealt you can fold or you can play. No matter what learn to enjoy the game.

I think Lyonese personally should of went to war with CE it would of been a better choice. I mean destruction is not wrong, but going down with the Ship does get you wet and makes it easier for the sharks to get you.

Yea, this would be the best Cassus Belli ever: "Dear CE, you have been respectful of our borders, so we're going to war with you to support the guys who attacked us in cold blood. kthxbye."

I'm more confused by the assumption that Lyonesse would have fared better in a war against the CE. They came and mopped up the Barony no problem and Lyonesse isn't in much better shape. IMO, the CE would have actually wiped us out by now because they'd have Rieleston waiting for our lands and don't seem to be fans of leaving loose ends anymore.

Boo! Loose ends ftw!

Quote from: Stabbity on February 22, 2014, 03:14:56 AM
Yea, this would be the best Cassus Belli ever: "Dear CE, you have been respectful of our borders, so we're going to war with you to support the guys who attacked us in cold blood. kthxbye."

Yes, they were very respectfull for your borders? :D Marched through them while ruler says "Sorry, miscommunication, we turn back!" and General keeps keeping his ears closed and marches through your lands loots for day or 2 and then realizes that miscommunication and says "sowwy!". Thats good respect of borders :P Then you wonder why i dont trust if you say CE wont attack you through our lands!

Quote from: Lorgan on February 22, 2014, 03:20:01 PM
Boo! Loose ends ftw!

Yeah, despite my impassioned words against Darka, I do still have a lot of respect for their "We'll clear out everything that was in our way, but the rest is whatever." mentality. Unless you guys just haven't hit Sale because of the monsters.

Quote from: jaune on February 22, 2014, 05:27:27 PM
Yes, they were very respectfull for your borders? :D Marched through them while ruler says "Sorry, miscommunication, we turn back!" and General keeps keeping his ears closed and marches through your lands loots for day or 2 and then realizes that miscommunication and says "sowwy!". Thats good respect of borders :P Then you wonder why i dont trust if you say CE wont attack you through our lands!

At least he didn't throw a temper tantrum and attack us. We never said CE wouldn't attack you through our lands (at least long term), we were attempting to establish a fair passage rights agreement.

You can whine all you want, but the truth of the matter is CE didn't go red in the face when we told them to get out and start lashing out like a toddler whose favorite toy was taken away.

Ofcourse they didnt, they didnt have to. You were about to give them perfect treaty to crush Darka.

Please Lock this thread

Nothing worthwhile will come of them bickering about such in such OOC here.

Going to have to agree with Blue Star now; the circle is starting over again.

Since this has yet to be locked and I found the perfect quote for the situation (regardless of which side you're on or if the theoretical situation with Lyonesse vs the CE had come up):

"The smallest worm will turn being trodden on." Shakespeare, King Henry VI, Pt. III

There's no reason to lock the thread, as of yet. No one's really crossed a line anywhere yet. If you don't want to read their discussions, then ignore this thread.

Yes, please don't call upon mods to lock threads. If we think it needs to be locked, it'll be locked.

Please don't lock this thread!

:o ::)

Yes every single person here has the ability to "lock" this thread by not reading it and not participating, but just because you're disinterested isn't any reason to impose that on everyone else.

this has been the most enjoyable thread for me.

i was just wondering how lyonesse was doing and now i know! Still hanging in there.

also this thread needs more Silnaria... a realm that has been holding Minas Leon at bay with no real ally support for over 4 months now. The bright side of being locked in war is that we get to skip out of this northern war, need to fight our western war, ML being nearly as strong as CE or Darka at 22 regions. this means Silnarias one of the big powers on AT, right? right?

Quote from: archindar on February 28, 2014, 12:18:53 PM
this has been the most enjoyable thread for me.

i was just wondering how lyonesse was doing and now i know! Still hanging in there.

also this thread needs more Silnaria... a realm that has been holding Minas Leon at bay with no real ally support for over 4 months now. The bright side of being locked in war is that we get to skip out of this northern war, need to fight our western war, ML being nearly as strong as CE or Darka at 22 regions. this means Silnarias one of the big powers on AT, right? right?

Without breaking the new forum rules, how is Silnaria inside? Still noisy? Still idealistic?

Quote from: Eirikr on February 28, 2014, 07:30:26 PM
Without breaking the new forum rules, how is Silnaria inside? Still noisy? Still idealistic?

Silnarias changed from when it was created, it no longer holds to some of its original ideals, Those we couldn't afford we tossed out. Were still noisy tho, we took in a Warrior saint priest, his role is being well played right about now with all these strange tidings that seem to spell danger for AT. Drizztle worked out much better than say Merlin ever thought it would, keeps the realm going and inline while constant action gathers us new players more often than we lose them 8) you might say we adapted to knowing that ML would come at us, its our best selling point now...

we did in the end give our favorite city to Tara, for safe keeping. ML didn't like that very much and strangely Tara didn't seem to like that one bit, yet they kept it and thats what we wanted, so works out.

Tara abandoned Carelia? I knew nothing good will follow when Ottar gave up dictatorship. Even thought we were opposite side, he was man who stood behind his words.

I wonder if Tara is just at sleep or is it going to join the war against Darka again?

-Jaune

Ottar is not the Tyrant anymore but he's not retired, just like KKC is not the King anymore but also not retired.

Does that count as abandoning Carelia?

I'm not quite following what you meant...

But have not seen Tara on battlereports from south ages and Carelia is at bad shape.

-Jaune

Well Ottar isn't fully retired but he can't worj against those who make this BS-actions against Atamara so perhaps it is just best thing to give up and let our work just fell apart. There is no point to play anymore.  We did played this game because we had real history.

Now we are facing huge losses beacuse of this winter is coming .And it changes too much of this game. If I keep playing perhaps it is time to change and play for Darka against CE.

Quote from: Zadar on March 20, 2014, 02:36:41 AM
Well Ottar isn't fully retired but he can't worj against those who make this BS-actions against Atamara so perhaps it is just best thing to give up and let our work just fell apart. There is no point to play anymore.  We did played this game because we had real history.

Now we are facing huge losses beacuse of this winter is coming .And it changes too much of this game. If I keep playing perhaps it is time to change and play for Darka against CE.

You are most welcomed to do so :)

I'm afraid this ice age thing has paralyzed most of the Atamaran realms which it effects. I have only seen Darka getting few regions to cover losses(which i think we had taken anyway). And Lyoness was trying too, but i think they lack strenght to actually do anything. Will north take this as curse of gods and become few region weaklings?

Lyonesse had considered a few options that would be doable with the right conditions... but IC interactions destroyed any hope of that, so it's really just a matter of time before someone's pinging Tom to delete the realm.

... I guess I need to stop making banners for realms. They tend not to last very long... (Except Silnaria, actually!)

Quote from: jaune on March 12, 2014, 09:23:39 AM
I'm not quite following what you meant...

But have not seen Tara on battlereports from south ages and Carelia is at bad shape.

-Jaune

I think Tara is died or slowly dying, I was semi happy my character died I could finally go home sadly I think my trip to the volcano is going to be a struggle.

No wind is dead! We must burry him with a sack of bunnies!