Poll

Who will win?

Melhed
11 (19.6%)
Thalmarkin
45 (80.4%)

Total Members Voted: 52

Author Topic: The War of Ice and Sun  (Read 130079 times)

Disturbedyang

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Re: The War of Ice and Sun
« Reply #405: June 10, 2013, 07:21:30 AM »
I still stick with my strategy of bringing the war to the thal's regions especially the exposed Vore on the west. But somehow I did not get enough support for that, or perhaps the Melhed members are just not interested in contributing...mostly in fact...

How will you guys react if we cross over to Qual and then burn down Vore? I would like to hear how you guys would had reacted to it.

I also suggested to send the whole army to the north of thal and do what thal is doing to us. To burn the food etc. After all, i believe we are much better equipped to fight this starving strategy, but once again i did not get any support. I am curious though why the members of Melhed are so reluctant to use an "unexpected" strategy. After all, I really do think we have nothing to lose and every surprise attack is an advantage to us. But somehow we ended defending on our lands and doing not much of a progress in the war.

On another note, i guess the flag change thing didn't really caught our attention, since we are so pre-occupied towards the end to repel anything thrown at us anyway. So, I don't think that actually affected the outcome in any way.

There were also some interesting quarrel between kalixta, pavel and madoc, but i believe the character of madoc took it too personally.

jaune

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Re: The War of Ice and Sun
« Reply #406: June 10, 2013, 07:54:25 AM »
We tried to keep on eye Vore situation, atleast i was aware that Vore could be one to be sieged at some point. I had prepared it with keeping good amounts of gold and hours all the time so i could have recruited additional militia.

I would guess, you could have attacked there, but would have been driven out in few turns without causing too much damage...

We would have seen you coming pretty early and travel times for big army would have been pretty high. So total suprise attack to Vore would have been hard. We scouted border all the time.

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Marlboro

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Re: The War of Ice and Sun
« Reply #407: June 10, 2013, 08:05:22 AM »
I still stick with my strategy of bringing the war to the thal's regions especially the exposed Vore on the west. But somehow I did not get enough support for that, or perhaps the Melhed members are just not interested in contributing...mostly in fact...

How will you guys react if we cross over to Qual and then burn down Vore? I would like to hear how you guys would had reacted to it.

Can't speak for Enzo but Red is a knight of Vore and would've been obligated to respond with his whole army, potentially ruining any ongoing tactics we were running at the time. Attacking Vore would've been the smartest move you could've made, and the fact that you never did was something of a running joke to those of us in the War Council. I don't know if it would've turned the tide of the war; Vore is a small city in the grand scheme of things. I maintain it would've been a big mess for us, though.
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Disturbedyang

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Re: The War of Ice and Sun
« Reply #408: June 10, 2013, 12:45:36 PM »
Can't speak for Enzo but Red is a knight of Vore and would've been obligated to respond with his whole army, potentially ruining any ongoing tactics we were running at the time. Attacking Vore would've been the smartest move you could've made, and the fact that you never did was something of a running joke to those of us in the War Council. I don't know if it would've turned the tide of the war; Vore is a small city in the grand scheme of things. I maintain it would've been a big mess for us, though.

Yes, I have always felt since the biggest problem for the thals are golds, then we should ruin their cities. That's the best way to stop you guys from growing bigger with the army. In fact, i do think we will be able to defend from Vore - if we attacked it early enough when our strength reaches almost 20k.

Antonine

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Re: The War of Ice and Sun
« Reply #409: June 10, 2013, 01:29:45 PM »
To be honest, my assessment is that the fundamental flaw in the melite strategy was allowing Thal to dictate the field of battle and to let us make sure that almost every battle was fought on Melhed's soil. Fighting a massively destructive war on your own turf is never a good idea in the long run.

Arrakis

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Re: The War of Ice and Sun
« Reply #410: June 10, 2013, 03:10:53 PM »
Apart from having a lot more nobles than Melhed, Thalmarkin also had a superior geographic strategic position. Walled regions like Lastfell and Qual were impenetrable, especially considering the active and good player base Thal's had. I am not sure which Thal's region you expect Melhed could've attacked, for Thal had borders in only two above mentioned regions, both filled with militia and easily reinforced by active mobile army. The only way Melhed could've dictated the war was amphibious landing, which Melhed tried, but if Melhed was to employ the all-out-attack strategy over the sea this would then open up the entire Melhedian hinterlands. And this is where number of nobles mattered again, for Thal could always easily spread out Melhed's limited numbers. Melhed never had a chance in the longterm, which is why I found it pointless to have Levon continuing exhausting myself (it was really tense with both time and planning, took more time than I had to invest) in a war that never could have been won for the above mentioned reasons. The war provided much interest though and the aftermath of the War of Ice and Sun is sure to have similar results.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2013, 03:32:22 PM by Arrakis »
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Tandaros

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Re: The War of Ice and Sun
« Reply #411: June 10, 2013, 05:19:35 PM »
To be honest, my assessment is that the fundamental flaw in the melite strategy was allowing Thal to dictate the field of battle and to let us make sure that almost every battle was fought on Melhed's soil. Fighting a massively destructive war on your own turf is never a good idea in the long run.

100% correct.
Apart from having a lot more nobles than Melhed, Thalmarkin also had a superior geographic strategic position. Walled regions like Lastfell and Qual were impenetrable, especially considering the active and good player base Thal's had. I am not sure which Thal's region you expect Melhed could've attacked, for Thal had borders in only two above mentioned regions, both filled with militia and easily reinforced by active mobile army. The only way Melhed could've dictated the war was amphibious landing, which Melhed tried, but if Melhed was to employ the all-out-attack strategy over the sea this would then open up the entire Melhedian hinterlands. And this is where number of nobles mattered again, for Thal could always easily spread out Melhed's limited numbers. Melhed never had a chance in the longterm, which is why I found it pointless to have Levon continuing exhausting myself (it was really tense with both time and planning, took more time than I had to invest) in a war that never could have been won for the above mentioned reasons. The war provided much interest though and the aftermath of the War of Ice and Sun is sure to have similar results.

That's a part of why Maya sued for peace... the war was just exhausting to me. Trying to remind everyone just to scout and rally on time was a grim omen that we couldn't possibly win the war. The smashing defeat in Bil Havil where everything we had was decimated was the straw that broke the camel's back.

I still think the plan to merge all armies together wasn't the best idea. There was a lot of internal tension in Melhed's war council, particularly between Kalixta (who had all kinds of bold ideas, some realistic, some not), Pavel (who at one point kinda turned himself into the Melite viceroy) and Maya (who had little patience for military derping). If we were all on the same page, things mighta gone better for us, but there was generally a lot of disagreement and second-guessing.

Miriam Ics

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Re: The War of Ice and Sun
« Reply #412: June 10, 2013, 06:51:25 PM »
Attacking Vore could be a good strategy but, I still remember how difficult it was for us to attack and takeover it and we had a good and active player count at that time as well.

One result of this war is that Maya earned the respect of Thalmarkin, or at least from many of us.

Another strategy of Red was to arrest all adventurers so you would have more monsters to deal with.
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Solari

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Re: The War of Ice and Sun
« Reply #413: June 11, 2013, 12:13:40 AM »
Attacking Vore would've been a disaster for Melhed, and I was cheering routinely for you guys to try it. You tried it once, I suspect, when you moved haphazardly into Qual. Sometimes, we'd sit in Orde and wait to see where you'd go. It's quicker for us to get to Lastfell or Qual from Orde than it is for you to get to either. And while Marvel got behind the lines occasionally to scout, he can't tell when we're misdirecting or traveling. and we misdirected an awful lot. If I had my druthers, we'd have misdirected every turn we weren't actually moving. That's a hard pace to keep up.

Let me give an example with numbers. You have 20K headed to Qual. Let's say they all arrive at the same time. A dubious proposition, but let's do it. Thalmarkin has 20K mobile total, to keep things interesting for this example. We also have 4K mobile in Qual (for most of the war, we had 5-6K) and Level 1 walls. 12K moves into Qual the turn before you arrive. 15-18K with the walls, you'll lose. Those folks from Thal will need to refit, sure, but at the same time, 8K is sent into Bil Havil to create mischief. THEY don't need to refit. We repeated this routine several times, from both Lastfell and Qual. In fact, this was the basis for the previous war plan, before the invasion.

Solari

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Re: The War of Ice and Sun
« Reply #414: June 11, 2013, 12:15:58 AM »
Apart from having a lot more nobles than Melhed, Thalmarkin also had a superior geographic strategic position. Walled regions like Lastfell and Qual were impenetrable, especially considering the active and good player base Thal's had. I am not sure which Thal's region you expect Melhed could've attacked, for Thal had borders in only two above mentioned regions, both filled with militia and easily reinforced by active mobile army. The only way Melhed could've dictated the war was amphibious landing, which Melhed tried, but if Melhed was to employ the all-out-attack strategy over the sea this would then open up the entire Melhedian hinterlands. And this is where number of nobles mattered again, for Thal could always easily spread out Melhed's limited numbers. Melhed never had a chance in the longterm, which is why I found it pointless to have Levon continuing exhausting myself (it was really tense with both time and planning, took more time than I had to invest) in a war that never could have been won for the above mentioned reasons. The war provided much interest though and the aftermath of the War of Ice and Sun is sure to have similar results.

Arrakis and I have chatted about this on IRC in the past, so it shouldn't surprise anyone that I agree with his observations. Thalmarkin could've easily lost the war in the beginning, had Melhed been a little more prepared to move immediately. We were surprised by that.

Tandaros

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Re: The War of Ice and Sun
« Reply #415: June 11, 2013, 01:00:34 AM »
Attacking Vore would've been a disaster for Melhed, and I was cheering routinely for you guys to try it. You tried it once, I suspect, when you moved haphazardly into Qual. Sometimes, we'd sit in Orde and wait to see where you'd go. It's quicker for us to get to Lastfell or Qual from Orde than it is for you to get to either. And while Marvel got behind the lines occasionally to scout, he can't tell when we're misdirecting or traveling. and we misdirected an awful lot. If I had my druthers, we'd have misdirected every turn we weren't actually moving. That's a hard pace to keep up.

Let me give an example with numbers. You have 20K headed to Qual. Let's say they all arrive at the same time. A dubious proposition, but let's do it. Thalmarkin has 20K mobile total, to keep things interesting for this example. We also have 4K mobile in Qual (for most of the war, we had 5-6K) and Level 1 walls. 12K moves into Qual the turn before you arrive. 15-18K with the walls, you'll lose. Those folks from Thal will need to refit, sure, but at the same time, 8K is sent into Bil Havil to create mischief. THEY don't need to refit. We repeated this routine several times, from both Lastfell and Qual. In fact, this was the basis for the previous war plan, before the invasion.

Yeah, I agree, going for Vore sounds nice on paper but the practicality of it was highly suspect. We'd lose a ton of strength pushing through Qual's fortificatons and militia, and once we got there, we'd be cut off from a retreat, or would go south through Fronen and risk pissing off the 'neutral' republic on our border.

On the note of Fronen, did Thal make some overtures to them to get them involved or keep them out? Maya tried to get them to declare on Thal in the late-game but they didn't seem to be interested, even though she offered up Fronepu if Melhed somehow got Unger.

Marlboro

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Re: The War of Ice and Sun
« Reply #416: June 11, 2013, 01:28:38 AM »
Yeah, I agree, going for Vore sounds nice on paper but the practicality of it was highly suspect. We'd lose a ton of strength pushing through Qual's fortificatons and militia, and once we got there, we'd be cut off from a retreat, or would go south through Fronen and risk pissing off the 'neutral' republic on our border.

As for Vore, maybe Enzo has the right of it; I dunno. We often butted heads over strategy, though I like to think we made a pretty good team. Thankfully the other marshal wasn't near as insubordinate as I was.

Quote
On the note of Fronen, did Thal make some overtures to them to get them involved or keep them out? Maya tried to get them to declare on Thal in the late-game but they didn't seem to be interested, even though she offered up Fronepu if Melhed somehow got Unger.

Really? WOW. I can only guess that it was Fingolfin's legendary silver tongue that kept that bargain from working. I know they wanted to jump on the Thal bandwagon but we had to beat them off with sticks (Hehe beat them off).
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JeVondair

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Re: The War of Ice and Sun
« Reply #417: June 11, 2013, 04:06:43 AM »
Apart from having a lot more nobles than Melhed, Thalmarkin also had a superior geographic strategic position. Walled regions like Lastfell and Qual were impenetrable, especially considering the active and good player base Thal's had. I am not sure which Thal's region you expect Melhed could've attacked, for Thal had borders in only two above mentioned regions, both filled with militia and easily reinforced by active mobile army. The only way Melhed could've dictated the war was amphibious landing, which Melhed tried, but if Melhed was to employ the all-out-attack strategy over the sea this would then open up the entire Melhedian hinterlands. And this is where number of nobles mattered again, for Thal could always easily spread out Melhed's limited numbers. Melhed never had a chance in the longterm, which is why I found it pointless to have Levon continuing exhausting myself (it was really tense with both time and planning, took more time than I had to invest) in a war that never could have been won for the above mentioned reasons. The war provided much interest though and the aftermath of the War of Ice and Sun is sure to have similar results.

Vore= Deathtrap
Qual=Deathtrap
Lastfell= Deathtrap

Every time attack on these regions were announced, Kalixta said "NO" or "hmm...interesting...(stays silent and hopes the suicidal idea goes away."  Vore was too far, even if we somehow managed to take it before huge militias were raised to stop us, we would have left all our lands horribly open for too little return. Of course, we would also have to get through Qual, a 2-3 turn trip with enemy defenses and militia on the other end and a full army not far off. Not to mention the prospect of a return trip. The Melite army would have had to return to Agyr anyway, and if the Thal's caught them retreating from the mountain, it would have been a bad time. Finally lastfell. Attacking lastfell would be dumb for too many reasons.

The only viable option for assault that Kalixta ever saw were naval ones, forcing Thal Armies to defend their own coastlines rather than attack our regions, but I severely underestimated the really fast travel times the Thals had through their own badland regions, thinking we would have time to consolidate when we saw Thal reprisals coming, but Solari moved a lot faster than expected and cleaned House. Even so, she was ready to continue the naval attack strategy, but then the Thals decided to press in, forcing her to instead redirect and protect the homeland instead of her massive intended raid (the whole army was already in the Mouth of Agyr and Queen Maya had actually already landed). From that point on, offensive action became impossible as Melhed was hemorrhaging nobles and CS. That the Thals chose to use two armies instead of one was a bit of a godsend, while it lasted. One army we could handle. Even defeated, we always forced them home to refit. Suffices to say that did not last long, culminating in the crushing example of the Slaughter at Bil Havil. The call had went out days prior to rally in Bil Havil and prepare to defend it. Only 8k CS showed up to do so, which should give some pretty smashing insight into what was going on within Melhed at the time.

Before that happened though, Kalixta had an idea: Why not let Fronen have Llongrel, Tepmona, and Bil Havil? Thus cutting off Thal means of invasion by land via diplomacy? She was convinced that if that happened, the Thal offensive would be stopped in its tracks and she could again focus on naval raids, which she was certain that even ThalMarkin did not have the gold or manpower to adequately defend or reciprocate. She was calling for it, loudly, but it did not happen in time.

There were also some definite leadership issues. I'll be the first to admit that I am not nearly as experienced as my Thalmarkin counterparts were, and that was certainly apparent throughout the war. Thalmarkin had the benefit of being mentally prepared for war with Melhed. On the other hand, the idea of war with Thalmarkin had been mostly academic for us. Plans were not in place, and with the recent rebellion, leadership certainly was not cemented. We went through a slew of Generals, Kalixta bearing the burden of shame for being the one to lose the war. Kalixta and Maya were always butting heads after Maya became Queen. Not jealousy mind you, but the delegation of authority. Maya was always sending out orders that countermanded Kalixta's intentions. I am not saying some of those orders were not spot on, I think one was at least, but the rest caused setbacks.

Of course, Thalmarkin having near 50 active nobles made a difference. I am certainly not faulting them for it, but I am looking forward to seeing ideas on how I could truly have fought them effectively, too.

And every moment those aforementioned regions were out of Fronen control; Kalixta could feel the shadow of the Thalmarkin juggernaught bearing down on her. Pressured to deliver results, sometimes she had no choice but to follow the Queen's lead. In private, however, she generally raised a !@#$ storm,  leading to estrangement between the two alpha-minded women. Frankly, despite the fact that she loves Maya like a kid sister, Kalixta did/does feel Maya was an opportunist, whether she believes her own con or not, and apparently she wasn't alone. It tore Melhed apart from within, especially when the terms of the treaty were laid down and culminating in the sudden and ill-advised rebellion. But the war was over at that point and therefore have no bearing on this topic. Finally, believe it or not, there were financial issues. Kalixta sponsored all the active armies and saw to it each night had enough gold out of her own personal accounts. I really don't know how much other nobles put forward, but Kalixta spent at least 5k helping other nobles refit every week, leaving her with barely enough for herself. She had to keep asking Yeux for money, and when asked why Agyr did not have a harbor to facilitate Dragonstrike, well, the only person that ever gave her money was Yeux.
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Marlboro

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Re: The War of Ice and Sun
« Reply #418: June 11, 2013, 04:22:00 AM »
Of course, Thalmarkin having near 50 active nobles made a difference. I am certainly not faulting them for it, but I am looking forward to seeing ideas on how I could truly have fought them effectively, too.

Really don't think I could've put up a better defense than you did, but then again I'm a constant promoter of the Eagles of Hope being the best army in all the lands. Being on the business end of them would be terrifying. Most of the big mash-ups we had were Eagles rolling with a few support units from the Wolves. If you had the numbers advantage in a particular brawl, it was probably just the Eagles, like our merry chase past Fronepu and Mhed.

I still think shooting straight for Vore in a cohesive manner would've wreaked havoc. Yes, you would've paid a huge price for it, but you paid a huge price every time you fought us on your own land too. Maybe start by really sticking it to Qual, tearing down the grandfathered Palisades there to smooth the way for a bigger strike force. I dunno.

Sacking our badlands regions did about jack though. They were still busted up from the invasion, and Sandefur didn't even have walls or militia. We have rurals that produce more gold than that; it's basically the Cuidado Juarez of Thalmarkin.

You had really good refit times and did a great job of stopping us from pressing our advantages too far. Nobody can say you didn't fight well, and any strategies at this point are just clear in hindsight.
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Sypher

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Re: The War of Ice and Sun
« Reply #419: June 11, 2013, 05:18:51 AM »
On the note of Fronen, did Thal make some overtures to them to get them involved or keep them out? Maya tried to get them to declare on Thal in the late-game but they didn't seem to be interested, even though she offered up Fronepu if Melhed somehow got Unger.
Fronen offered to join the war on Thalmarkin's side at the start. We even had a referendum but Thalmarkin told us to keep out. Melhed also did offer to return Fronepu to Fronen I think. I don't recall all the terms of the offer. However, joining Melhed's side didn't seem like a good idea and didn't have much support in the Senate (if any). I also think at that point we were already preparing to aid Enweil against Riombara. Riombara's war declaration didn't happen as quickly as we thought it would though.